Was Luke’s ROTJ Saber INTENDED To Be A GRAFLEX?

[Captain Dunsel]

The current theory is that the Skywalker Ranch GRAFLEX was the hilt that we see in Hamill’s hands during the “Sandstorm Sequence”, prior to the V2 being pressed into service (I agree with this theory)….

However, this is also commonly held to have been an “error” by the production team…that they had “forgotten” that the GRAFLEX had been lost in ESB which required them to scramble to replace it.

I don’t think this is what happened. I think the production had fully and consciously intended for Luke’s new hilt to be a replica / close copy of his father’s original saber and it wasn’t an “error” that found a GRAFLEX showing up on the first day of shooting.

There are two key items that support this theory:

1. Costume Sketches. ROTJ costume sketches clearly show a GRAFLEX-type of hilt on Luke’s belt:

2. The script specifically SAYS it. When Vader hands the V2 to Harold Q Palpatine, he remarks that it is “…much like your father’s”. Well, actually, the V2 is NOTHING like his father’s. It would have made more sense for him to have said “…much like your mentor’s (Kenobi)”….

Now, if a GRAFLEX was intended for the ROTJ hilt, then why did they pivot and substitute the GRAFLEX on-set for the V2?

I have no idea.

 

[HMSwolfe]

I would guess much for the same reason that the blade was green rather than blue—it’s more immediately obvious it’s not the same lightsaber.

 

[Anakin Starkiller]

I had heard that the blade was changed to green because it was not showing up in the Yuma shots against a blue sky

 

[Captain Dunsel]

I had heard that the blade was changed to green because it was not showing up in the Yuma shots against a blue sky

 

[SethS]

As the PT documented, Lucas changes his mind in-process a lot. Concept art isn’t quite hard evidence for me given that it’s often done even before a completed script. It would make sense they were looking at stuff from the previous movies.

The script gives us two lines about it, the “much like your father’s” and “ISYHCANL” which are a little contrary.

To be honest, they should have designed Luke a new saber from scratch— concept art to prop. I think the only thing we know for sure is that by recycling Obi-stunts not a lot of forethought was out into it oddly. It wasn’t until post that the blade color was changed to green and that the insert shot of the “new looking” hero detail was done.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

I would guess much for the same reason that the blade was green rather than blue—it’s more immediately obvious it’s not the same lightsaber.

Starkiller is correct…the hilt’s original color was “Jedi Blue”.

(Image from the teaser trailer, below…you can also see how the “Jedi Blue” blade is not very distinct against the sky)

 

[Captain Dunsel]

As the PT documented, Lucas changes his mind in-process a lot. Concept art isn’t quite hard evidence for me given that it’s often done even before a completed script. It would make sense they were looking at stuff from the previous movies.

The script gives us two lines about it, the “much like your father’s” and “ISYHCANL” which are a little contrary.

To be honest, they should have designed Luke a new saber from scratch— concept art to prop. I think the only thing we know for sure is that by recycling Obi-stunts not a lot of forethought was out into it oddly. It wasn’t until post that the blade color was changed to green and that the insert shot of the “new looking” hero detail was done.

Well…all Vader says in the ISYHCANL scene is “I see you have constructed a new lightsaber..” (which would apply to ANY hilt that Luke built to replace the one he lost in ESB).

He doesn’t say “…I see you have constructed a new lightsaber of your own design”.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

Thinking more about why they would have swapped the GRAFLEX for the V2, if it was intended for Luke to have a replica of his father’s hilt in ROTJ…

I do know that one is certainly more comfortable to duel with than the other.

It would seem that the GRAFLEX gave Hamill a lot of discomfort during ESB, as evidenced by all the Gaffers tape wrapped around the GRAFLEX, and eventual application of foam grips. Perhaps he didn’t want to have to use one again and they had to scramble for a more comfortable alternative when he saw that he would be facing that uncomfortable prospect in the upcoming duel?

It does appear, at least to me, that they are focused specifically on the very rigid and uncomfortable T-Track grips, in this photo…

 

[blewis17]

The common thread during most all productions is “the bottom line” And to reiterate what I said in another thread, those of us grew up during the 1970s/80s really didn't give much thought to how different the saber hilts appeared. Mostly because you only saw them briefly on the big screen (not dozens of times on home video yet), and other than ANH and the Wampa cave in ESB where Luke’s Graflex hilt is more visible, had no clue there even was a significant difference.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

The common thread during most all productions is “the bottom line” And to reiterate what I said in another thread, those of us grew up during the 1970s/80s really didn't give much thought to how different the saber hilts appeared. Mostly because you only saw them briefly on the big screen (not dozens of times on home video yet), and other than ANH and the Wampa cave in ESB where Luke’s Graflex hilt is more visible, had no clue there even was a significant difference.

Hmmmmm….well I can speak only for myself as a kid who saw these movies in first-run.

Even as a 9 year old, it was very apparent to me that Luke’s saber was of an entirely different design in ROTJ than the one I saw in ESB and ANH.

 

[Bloop]

Hmmmmm….well I can speak only for myself as a kid who saw these movies in first-run.

Even as a 9 year old, it was very apparent to me that Luke’s saber was of an entirely different design in ROTJ than the one I saw in ESB and ANH.

Me too. I remember this poster before the movie came out, which I drew my own pictures of. Even though much of the saber hilt is covered, it's clear the emitter end is different.This, too, must've been made before the decision to switch the blade color to green.

 

[thd9791]

I will say I can’t think of another reason to be discussing the saber prop like this, to then have it replaced with a piece of garbage prop.

This is the set for the sandstorm which was first right? and they had the V2, ready to buff for the scene.

The Yuma shoots were first when it comes to movie footage, with a freshly made stunt saber, and after that in England they had close copies, the Obi stunts. I have no idea why they didn’t ship the Yuma over there with Mark, but either way I can’t think of another explanation for this.

They had to gaff tape the Yuma box on the skiff barge. It also was uncomfortable and I think the most obvious thing is that it might be too close to the old prop to give the idea of a new saber, which was part of the plot.

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

Sandstorm was the first section filmed for ROTJ, Sail Barge and Endor were filmed later.

 

[Gregatron]

Sandstorm was the first section filmed for ROTJ, Sail Barge and Endor were filmed later.

Exactly. Which is why we have those photos of the Graflex on-set. It was the very start of filming, with the location work done later (the opposite of ANH and ESB).

I suspect that the concept sketches show a Graflex simply because that's what Luke carried in the first two films, and nothing much beyond that. Those sketches are for the costume design, after all.

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

I could easily see back in 82 during filming before all the EU stuff was made LFL not having given too much thought about Jedi and lightsabers as the movies were not only canon but all we really had to go by.

Who knows what LFL thought about it. Maybe they figured Luke went back to Bespin and retrieved his lost saber? Maybe the ‘Luke/Graflex’ style was common and lots of Jedi carried the same saber? (like cops carrying a .38 police revolver). Maybe Mark convinced Lucas that Luke would have rebuilt his lightsaber because he wanted a more comfortable prop? Who knows?

 

[Halliwax]

So just recently I’ve read, I believe in the rinzler book.. that from the beginning, when they were writing the scrips Lucas insisted that luke was going to have a new lightsaber

Lucas himself is quoted in the book stating “because Luke lost in the battle with vader”

And he was talking with kazanjian about how it’s also going to be a different color

I was always under the impression the blue saber was changed because the blade got lost in the yuma sky

But after reading this recently, and I mean with in the last few months. I’m wondering now what the true story is..

 

[Halliwax]

I knew I read it somewhere!!! And they say I have brain damage… hmmmphh!!

Pg68 of the “making of return of the Jedi” transcript from 1981

Lucas: I got an idea you can use with artoo, what if Luke is about to walk the plank. “Well so long old buddy” and he whistles , as you do in those movies where you whistle for your dog, and then you cut to the top deck of the ship. Artoo is there and a little launcher pops of of his head. Then like goes over the plank, drops, jumps back onto the ship, grabs the sword and starts fighting. We do the acrobatic thing where he flips himself back

Kazanjian: mark lost his laser sword didn’t he?

Lucas: he did lose his laser seord, when his father cut his hand off

Kazanjian: so whose lazer sword is he using? Should I have brought this up?

Lucas: you should because that’s what everybody will ask

Murquand: we’ll, it didn’t occur to me

Lucas: the way I was explaining it in the scripts before was that he made another one. But it’s going to be to impossible, given the structure of the way film is now, to explain where that lazer sword came from.

Marquand; it’s a line of dialogue later..

Lucas: we’ll, I don’t know if we even need to explain it. The worst thing about that is you get a letter in starlog magazine. Big deal

Marquand: he made it, that’s the answer!

Lucas: that’s not going to drop the audience out of the film. People aren’t going to stand up and say “I just don’t buy that, I’m leaving” but you will get lots of letters, so we’ll make a form letter explaining that luke made it

Kasdan: maybe it should be a new color?

Lucas: yes, it could be totally different looking. We can work that out. But the idea running throughout the whole trilogy is; first he’s given his fathers laser sword, because his father lost it in a fight with Ben Kenobi: Ben cut his hand off and vader fell into the volcano, so Ben then pried the lazer sword out of his hand and kept it for the son. So then what the father did was cut his sons hand with the laser sword off - and that was a way of severing the relationship between father and son. Not only did Luke lose his weapon and carry his sword for his father. Now he is not doing that anymore. In this one, he’s built his own. He has built his own laser sword; he is his own man, he is not a son anymore. He is an equal

 

[Halliwax]

I also found them talking about/creation of filming the cave scene, Nov 1982

And then they filmed it on Dec 18th 1982, right after the ILM Christmas party

So after reading this and seeing the dates. The original idea was to always have a different color blade, and a different lightsaber in general

I wonder if we got blue blades in the trailer because they already had the computers set up for that color. Or if Lucas didn’t make up his mind yet on what color he wanted it to be

I tend to think it was him not making up his mind yet because of all the posters back then with the blue blade..

Idk.. I read this just a few months ago when I was in “you must relax mode or your going to have a heart attack” and this stuck out right away..

 

[Captain Dunsel]

I knew I read it somewhere!!! And they say I have brain damage… hmmmphh!!

Pg68 of the “making of return of the Jedi” transcript from 1981
View attachment 1699230

Lucas: I got an idea you can use with artoo, what if Luke is about to walk the plank. “Well so long old buddy” and he whistles , as you do in those movies where you whistle for your dog, and then you cut to the top deck of the ship. Artoo is there and a little launcher pops of of his head. Then like goes over the plank, drops, jumps back onto the ship, grabs the sword and starts fighting. We do the acrobatic thing where he flips himself back

Kazanjian: mark lost his laser sword didn’t he?

Lucas: he did lose his laser seord, when his father cut his hand off

Kazanjian: so whose lazer sword is he using? Should I have brought this up?

Lucas: you should because that’s what everybody will ask

Murquand: we’ll, it didn’t occur to me

Lucas: the way I was explaining it in the scripts before was that he made another one. But it’s going to be to impossible, given the structure of the way film is now, to explain where that lazer sword came from.

Marquand; it’s a line of dialogue later..

Lucas: we’ll, I don’t know if we even need to explain it. The worst thing about that is you get a letter in starlog magazine. Big deal

Marquand: he made it, that’s the answer!

Lucas: that’s not going to drop the audience out of the film. People aren’t going to stand up and say “I just don’t buy that, I’m leaving” but you will get lots of letters, so we’ll make a form letter explaining that luke made it

Kasdan: maybe it should be a new color?

Lucas: yes, it could be totally different looking. We can work that out. But the idea running throughout the whole trilogy is; first he’s given his fathers laser sword, because his father lost it in a fight with Ben Kenobi: Ben cut his hand off and vader fell into the volcano, so Ben then pried the lazer sword out of his hand and kept it for the son. So then what the father did was cut his sons hand with the laser sword off - and that was a way of severing the relationship between father and son. Not only did Luke lose his weapon and carry his sword for his father. Now he is not doing that anymore. In this one, he’s built his own. He has built his own laser sword; he is his own man, he is not a son anymore. He is an equal

Hmmmmm….good research; It still doesn’t seem to specify if the new “laser sword” hilt would / would not be a GRAFLEX design, just that Luke would build a new one to replace the one that he lost.

Obviously, per this conversation in Rinzler’s book, Lucas and team were well aware that Luke would have a newly constructed “Laser Sword” and I really doubt that the GRAFLEX showing up on Day One of filming was due to some comical error on the part of the prop master that needed to be rectified with the quick replacement of a heavily worn out stunt hilt from ANH that was normally used in rehearsals.

This might also explain why the Skywalker Ranch hilt looks “similar” to the ESB hilts but with some unique details like the wide textured mylar tape on the clamp, the reversed Kobold D-Ring mount with brass screws mounting it to the flash bottom, etc.

 

[Halliwax]

Hmmmmm….good research; It still doesn’t seem to specify if the new “laser sword” hilt would / would not be a GRAFLEX design, just that Luke would build a new one to replace the one that he lost.

Obviously, per this conversation in Rinzler’s book, Lucas and team were well aware that Luke would have a newly constructed “Laser Sword” and I really doubt that the GRAFLEX showing up on Day One of filming was due to some comical error on the part of the prop master that needed to be rectified by the quick replacement by a heavily worn out stunt hilt from ANH that was used in rehearsals.

Honestly I got the representation of the hero v1. Maybe I’m bias, but with Lucas saying “totally different looking”

Idk..