Agreed. This was and is being handled very badly on one end, which is disappointing to me.
I think Khal has made an excellent point about the use of certain factories and their business links to less reputable people.
My Luke ROTJ hero sabers are being recast by 89 sabers
- Thread starter Anakin Starkiller
- Start date
I think Khal has made an excellent point about the use of certain factories and their business links to less reputable people.
Khal, if you removed the sabers for sale after learning they were recasts of my work, I appreciate it.
My work with TXQ on my Leia project is unrelated to this issue. TXQ is a machine shop in China, they formerly had done machining work for 89. They no longer work with him. I engaged them to manufacture a product that Anthony and I developed. TXQ is machining that product for my store. It doesn't have much relevance to this issue.
Khal, I'm not targeting you. You posted them for sale. Your advert made me aware of the fact. I brought that fact up in a public forum as a matter of discussion. If I'd seen that some other seller that were member of the RPF had done the same thing, I would have called that fact out as well.
My work with TXQ on my Leia project is unrelated to this issue. TXQ is a machine shop in China, they formerly had done machining work for 89. They no longer work with him. I engaged them to manufacture a product that Anthony and I developed. TXQ is machining that product for my store. It doesn't have much relevance to this issue.
Khal, I'm not targeting you. You posted them for sale. Your advert made me aware of the fact. I brought that fact up in a public forum as a matter of discussion. If I'd seen that some other seller that were member of the RPF had done the same thing, I would have called that fact out as well.
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GhostbusterDan
Sr Member
And you’ve been told now numerous times many other retailers are selling them. You have been told this for hours since you shared this news, yet continued to target Khal.
You were also told a handful of times they were removed from sale too; unsure why you continued to berate the fact and insist on proof as to why they were removed.
I was told by Khal that they were no longer listed for sale. You jumped in with an assumption that Khal removed them for sale because he now knows their recasts and doesn't want to sell recasts. I did not make the same assumption. I asked for clarification--not proof--clarification. I asked Khal, not you RetroCultcha, "were they removed from sale because they are recasts or did they sell out?" Khal has now given his answer and I appreciate that.
If the other people selling them were RPF members or cared about the community and people who actually make things, I'd engage with them. But they're not members and don't care. They've decided not to be members of this community and not to adhere to its standards.
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GhostbusterDan
Sr Member
There was no assumption on my part on why he removed from sale, he CLEARLY said why both here and on Facebook.
Again. Seems very unfair to call our Khal or KR when the issue at hand is 89. I feel this is all being directed in completely the wrong way, and if is portraying you in a poor light.
As I’ve iterated too, as a customer of yours, I’m disappointed to see this handled in such a way.
This is not how we target or handle recasters.
I have nothing more of value to add to this thread from this point, but I felt it appropriate to point out how heavy handed and disproportionate your claims against KR were.
Khal has made it abundantly clear he will help you confirm whether or not it is a recast (which should have been done first in private before any posts or threads were made as it’s purely speculative at this point in time).
It's not purely speculative. The MOM team have had hard evidence that 89 was planning on recasting me for some time now. Khal's offer to provide measurements is appreciated, but unnecessary at this point.
Khal posted "Firstly, as of now (I just woke up), this Hero product is now marked as 'sold out' on the store and cannot be ordered now for what it's worth."
This message did not convey "I stopped selling them because I learned they were recasts" it said to me "I sold out of them, so what does it matter." That's why I asked for clarification.
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GhostbusterDan
Sr Member
Can the rest of us see the proof then please?
Until proven it’s speculation to us, and I’m unsure how if nobody had one on hand it’s been immediately proven.
Looks like one, isn’t the same as, examined and measured and it is one.
And if someone did have one on hand which is how proof was ascertained, be curious to know why it took a mail shot from a store to proclaim the news.
Would be great to evidence this so it can be shared with fact and to ensure prospective buyers are aware, as opposed to a bunch of us grown men squabbling about it.
Yes. 89 sabers appears (clearly from those with the eyes to see their design elements) to have been using hilts as direct reference for re-engineered products.
The hilts are a little bit different in the breakdown of assembly points and details (like the arrow plate being solid on their Hero) and sometimes that is done as a professional way to say “no look, see it is different”. Sometimes they’ve used design changes to justify to the customer base that it is ‘better’ even though it is ironically less accurate.
TheRPF is smarter than that and I’ve been watching 89’s progress up until now.
As I understand they are actively collecting and or reverse engineering other community member hilts now to repackage and make changes…
These changes are billed to a large domestic (China) consumership and pushed as being ultimate improvements prior to any other product… it’s kind of a gorilla warfare tactic since most of us don’t have eyes in that market and vice-versa.
I think it IS right that the pot be stirred here; as the recasting on Dan’s hilt is blatant. Being the victim in this case he’s allowed to stir it up and get support here hopefully regarding 89.
Dan, if I’d had an idea that Khal would wind up in a trade deal with 89 including your hilts I would’ve brought what I know to him.
I got the stock email the other night too and was also surprised to see it there- had I a bit more time these days (with my highly anxious dog and work craziness) I’d have reached out immediately myself.
I’ve shared with him now from other private conversations that 89 obtained Dan’s hilt, used it to show the domestic (China) customer base as ‘his design’ (hilariously along with our MoM parts manifest document obtained from our thread claiming that it was his drawings).
I also don’t think there’s any surprise that Korbanth sells 89 product because it’s clear from those in his orbit that HE does-not-care… we’ve already tried to get him to end it but let’s be honest he and 89 are tied at the hip.
SP Sabers, Phoenix Props, Khal as well from what I understand are all in eminent danger of seeing their work reproduced or “improved upon” by 89.
Khal you have a pretty good track record at shutting down and disengaging / confronting anything that seems elicit in nature so on my end I’m glad to see 89’s stock pulled and hopefully we can all work to ending this kind of crap.
That starts with community eyes being accountable to identify and end selling stolen designs… especially with such clear tells in the product being taken
The hilts are a little bit different in the breakdown of assembly points and details (like the arrow plate being solid on their Hero) and sometimes that is done as a professional way to say “no look, see it is different”. Sometimes they’ve used design changes to justify to the customer base that it is ‘better’ even though it is ironically less accurate.
TheRPF is smarter than that and I’ve been watching 89’s progress up until now.
As I understand they are actively collecting and or reverse engineering other community member hilts now to repackage and make changes…
These changes are billed to a large domestic (China) consumership and pushed as being ultimate improvements prior to any other product… it’s kind of a gorilla warfare tactic since most of us don’t have eyes in that market and vice-versa.
I think it IS right that the pot be stirred here; as the recasting on Dan’s hilt is blatant. Being the victim in this case he’s allowed to stir it up and get support here hopefully regarding 89.
Dan, if I’d had an idea that Khal would wind up in a trade deal with 89 including your hilts I would’ve brought what I know to him.
I got the stock email the other night too and was also surprised to see it there- had I a bit more time these days (with my highly anxious dog and work craziness) I’d have reached out immediately myself.
I’ve shared with him now from other private conversations that 89 obtained Dan’s hilt, used it to show the domestic (China) customer base as ‘his design’ (hilariously along with our MoM parts manifest document obtained from our thread claiming that it was his drawings).
I also don’t think there’s any surprise that Korbanth sells 89 product because it’s clear from those in his orbit that HE does-not-care… we’ve already tried to get him to end it but let’s be honest he and 89 are tied at the hip.
SP Sabers, Phoenix Props, Khal as well from what I understand are all in eminent danger of seeing their work reproduced or “improved upon” by 89.
Khal you have a pretty good track record at shutting down and disengaging / confronting anything that seems elicit in nature so on my end I’m glad to see 89’s stock pulled and hopefully we can all work to ending this kind of crap.
That starts with community eyes being accountable to identify and end selling stolen designs… especially with such clear tells in the product being taken
I’ll talk to the individual who provided the screen shots but you have to consider there is a very REAL possibility that by uncovering that dialogue and screen shots it would harm their and our ability to have this kind of information.
They are being shared with the makers who are directly impacted while it is still volatile. At the moment (and I know it’s not satisfactory) you have to at least take my word for it.
To be clear. 89 is documented having a starkiller hero IN HAND and used our MoM hilt parts manifest image to tell his consumer base in China that it was HIS new prototype and HIS new drawings for what would be the ‘best’ Hero to date… (prior to re-engineering the hilt)
At this point I agree; the only way forward is to allow the conversation to move into progressive discussions with the makers and retailers instead of being flayed open and analyzed here in public.
89 however, should be under significant scrutiny
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I did receive messages from Peter of 89Sabers this morning with his model and also images of Anakin Starkillers.
As I said, I’m more than happy to assist with this claim and investigation into what 89Sabers has done. See below:
Anakin Starkiller Version:
Then this is the 89Sabers version. Images provided by Peter:
As I said, I’m more than happy to assist with this claim and investigation into what 89Sabers has done. See below:
Anakin Starkiller Version:
Then this is the 89Sabers version. Images provided by Peter:
No worries. Like I mentioned briefly before, I literally had a handful of these hilts.
Regarding TXQ, I hate to break it to you, but it is related to your stance on this particular issue. They do work with Peter and co-operate. They still sell sabers that use his hilts. There is indeed relevance to this issue because my association was pointed out when you created this thread. My character was questioned as a community member due to this association.
Therefore it felt important to point out that your chosen manufacturing partner are also affiliated with the very person you are condemning. This absolutely has relevance.
Maybe they’ve told you they no longer work with him in an effort to keep you as a design partner but you can literally go on their AliExpress store and see that they’re selling sabers that use 89Sabers hilts.
See below:
"my association was pointed out when you created this thread. My character was questioned as a community member due to this association."
Khal, I wasn't questioning who you were associated with or who you work with to produce your own designs. I was questioning your behavior in actively, at the time, selling products that were recasts of my work. If you've stopped doing that, then I no longer have an issue with you.
Even you have admitted that selling products from a known recaster without questioning who he was copying this time was a bad move.
But I'm sure you can understand why a response that read, to me anyways, as "I don't make them, I just sell them" and "I've sold out of them anyways" did not end the issue for me.
You are not the victim here because I made public that you'd advertised and listed products for sale that are recasts of my work.
The day that I list recasts of your products for sale on my website, you are more than welcome to cry fowl.
Khal, I wasn't questioning who you were associated with or who you work with to produce your own designs. I was questioning your behavior in actively, at the time, selling products that were recasts of my work. If you've stopped doing that, then I no longer have an issue with you.
Even you have admitted that selling products from a known recaster without questioning who he was copying this time was a bad move.
But I'm sure you can understand why a response that read, to me anyways, as "I don't make them, I just sell them" and "I've sold out of them anyways" did not end the issue for me.
You are not the victim here because I made public that you'd advertised and listed products for sale that are recasts of my work.
The day that I list recasts of your products for sale on my website, you are more than welcome to cry fowl.
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GhostbusterDan
Sr Member
Damage is done is it not? The thread title this morning included KR. Same on Facebook.
Hundreds of loyal saber fans this morning were met with accusations of Khal being involved in recasting unfairly.
You editing your posts some 12+ hours later to say “I no longer have an issue with you” is a bit of a joke.
I think at best you owe him an apology. Particularly when as he demonstrated above, you work with people yourself who recast products.
Stones in glass houses …
The photos provided above also don’t clearly prove recasting at all. Most of those pieces are different to yours. Has he used yours and tweaked them to his own design? Don’t know. But how can you prove it? Your all trying to emulate an original piece by copying it, they are all going to be damn similar anyway if your making a good replica, but at this point, his looks nothing like yours and thus without some proof, I’d argue it’s hard pushed to argue.
“Khal, I wasn't questioning who you were associated with or who you work with to produce your own designs. I was questioning your behavior in actively, at the time, selling products that were recasts of my work. If you've stopped doing that, then I no longer have an issue with you.”
Which is why I would have assumed the thing you’d do is to contact me privately? Instead you came to a public forum of which I am a member and posted a thread saying 89Sabers and I recast your Hero! Yes, you’ve edited everything now, but you’ve only edited because all of the information is coming to light as to how this misunderstanding occurred. Another reason why you should have just reached out to me privately.
We can’t start editing this thread now to make this situation seem different to how it was when it was originally posted. If you wanted to do that, delete the entire thread and FB posts, investigate the matter properly with all parties involved and re-post again if needed.
“You are not the victim here because I made public that you'd advertised and listed products for sale that are recasts of my work.”
Wrong. Because you and I both know (and others earlier on in this thread) that’s not how the thread started. Your initial thread title clearly said “…are being recast by 89 and KR”
Again, as I’ve said, my products have been recast and copied before with plentiful evidence. So I know how you’re feeling, but still, my point is that this could have been handled so differently..,
My posts here and on Facebook have made statements that are true (with the exception of confusing sabebay for Saber Armoury--which ironically doesn't really matter since saberbay wasn't selling recasts of my Luke saber, Saber Armoury was. If anyone should object, it's saberbay since he wasn't involved in this case
).
KR was selling recasts of my saber on his website. That's something that happened, if there is damage done to his reputation, that damage was cause by the act, not by the person who brought that action to the public's awareness.
If KR didn't fully know what he was doing, I can accept that and move forward. But the idea that I should apologize to him for telling people what was happening is absurd.
).KR was selling recasts of my saber on his website. That's something that happened, if there is damage done to his reputation, that damage was cause by the act, not by the person who brought that action to the public's awareness.
If KR didn't fully know what he was doing, I can accept that and move forward. But the idea that I should apologize to him for telling people what was happening is absurd.
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"We can’t start editing this thread now to make this situation seem different to how it was when it was originally posted."
Khal, that's something that you literally asked me to do in your first post.
"I'd also appreciate if you removed my company name from your thread title"
I changed the title because you asked me to do so.
Khal, that's something that you literally asked me to do in your first post.
"I'd also appreciate if you removed my company name from your thread title"
I changed the title because you asked me to do so.
Dude, they were met with the truth of what was going on. The sabers for sale on KR's website were recasts. If that truth hurts KR's reputation, that is not on me.
"Particularly when as he demonstrated above, you work with people yourself who recast products."
I work with a machine company that did work in the past machining products for 89sabers. I am not responsible for what 89sabers does, or who my shop worked with in the past. Bringing this in here is trying to create a false equivalency to confuse the issue. I am responsible for what I sell, just as Khal is responsible for what he sells. I'm not telling Khal who he should and should not associate with or what shops he can use. I'm saying if you sell sabers that are recasts of my work, I will let people know that the sabers you are selling are recasts of my work.
GhostbusterDan
Sr Member
Because you didn’t have the decency to message him and tell him. He acquired them in good faith from a retailer who makes and distributes thousands of hilts a year, he got some to sell like hundreds of others.
Had he have known he probably would have dealt with it first. You put him on blast and didn’t give him a chance to look into it or resolve it himself.
Your in the wrong not him.
He’s already acknowledged he had no idea and will do all he can to help you prove or disprove recasting.
Your attitude stinks honestly man.
I don’t expect any sort of apology Dan. I’ve mentioned already that this is a total misunderstanding, the hilts have been pulled from the store and hopefully we can just put this all behind us.My posts here and on Facebook have made statements that are true (with the exception of confusing sabebay for Saber Armoury--which ironically doesn't really matter since saberbay wasn't selling recasts of my Luke saber, Saber Armoury was. If anyone should object, it's saberbay since he wasn't involved in this case
KR was selling recasts of my saber on his website. That's something that happened, if there is damage done to his reputation, that damage was cause by the act, not by the person who brought that action to the public's awareness.
If KR didn't fully know what he was doing, I can accept that and move forward. But the idea that I should apologize to him for telling people what was happening is absurd.
Nevertheless, there is still a dispute between you and Peter as to whether or not these were in fact recast. So, since I have hilts here still, if there is any way I can assist in proving that they have been recast, feel free to PM or email me.
I think at this point I just want to move on from this…
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