My Luke ROTJ hero sabers are being recast by 89 sabers

[James Kenobi 1138]

For the record: At least on our part... efforts are being made to bring production on lightsabers out of China and into European/American factories willing to run projects but the overhead is (understandably) more.

I apologize for being dense, but I don’t understand how this will stop saber recasters or keep copies of your sabers off alibaba. It only seems like it will make your runs on the RPF more expensive.

Currently you’re using a shop in China, and this is the least expensive way to facilitate a large run while also making a small profit.

If you move production to a shop in Europe/America, you say the cost will go up, resulting in higher prices for RPF’ers wanting to buy here from reputable dealers.

Inevitably a shady scam-artist will purchase one of your European/American sabers, send it off the same old factories in China to be reverse-engineered, and your designs will be selling on less-reputable sites for less than your prices, possibly actually driving less-informed or RPF-ignorant people directly to those sites that stole and copied your work. Then, the Chinese factory that the scammer used to copy your saber will probably start selling it on alibaba.

All you would have really done is caused your prices to go up, and add some time to the scammer getting his version made, but the ultimate outcome would be the same: stolen sabers sold by shady dealers and factory copies on alibaba.

I support RPF runs with my money and I don’t buy recast anything or purchase from blacklisted sellers. I would hate to see RPF saber runs become more expensive, I would rather see people buy better products from reputable dealers at the lowest price and reward those who create them with business.

 

[BRRogers]

I have a lot of respect for both Daniel and Kahl, so this has not been an enjoyable read. I understand Dan's frustration, having had my own work re-cast. I also think Kahl has done the honourable thing in taking them down and offering to help.

I've seen comments on Facebook basically saying "what's the big deal"? "You've copied someone elses work, so why can't people copy yours"?

This totally misses the point of why we do what we do. For me, it's about fulfilling the desire to see/handle/own pieces of movie history. These objects are important. They really are. They hold a genuinely special place in people's hearts. They do in mine at least, which is why I put a great deal of effort in to replicating them as closely as humanly possible. I want to be able to pick these things up and feel as though I've plucked them straight out of the screen.

This requires weeks/months/years of obsessive research, digging in to history and manufacturing techniques. Not to mention the work involved in generating the models, sourcing parts and materials, etc. It's a LOT of work.

So of course, when some unscrupulous individual gets in on one of your runs, so that they can spend an afternoon taking measurements, then miraculously comes out with a product "of their own", it is disappointing and infuriating.

To be honest though, this is what I do for fun. As much as I disapprove of it being done, there really is very little I or anyone else can do to stop it. And I refuse to allow the actions of these people to bring drama and resentment in to something that I love.

It's absolutely necessary to call out these re-casters so that people can make informed decisions, and I'll be taking care not to sell to anyone I know to have been involved in re-casting, but other than that, I'm going to try not to loose too much sleep over it.

As you might know, I am VERY open about my work and research. A little too open perhaps. I think it's important to show your working out though. That's what separates us from those who rip off the work of others. It would be a crying shame to have to operate behind closed doors. I just feel that that goes against everything this community stands for. It's about sharing/learning from one another.

As much as it increases the risk of being copied, sharing the process also serves to authenticate the work as being original, as well as demonstrating it's accuracy to the original prop.

For me that's a fair trade. If people want to buy cheap knock-offs, then they get what they pay for. They're NEVER made to the same standard as those they're ripping off. Perhaps they're good enough for those who aren't serious collectors? To be honest though, I'm more interested in making things for People who share my passion for the source material and attention to detail.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts on the re-casting situation. It does suck, and it's morally reprehensible. We should be aware of it and make others aware of it by calling it out, but I'm resigned to the fact that it's going to happen, and there's very little that can be done to stop it.

Thanks for sharing Dave I 100% agree with the sentiments you’ve shared. I have to thank and commend you for striking a very fine balance between collaboration, open transparency and more recently limiting ‘some’ of the nuances or specifics shared during development so that it doesn’t hinder the success of your work, counter intuitive yes but protections are sometimes required for certain details that are more delicate in nature.

I apologize for being dense, but I don’t understand how this will stop saber recasters or keep copies of your sabers off alibaba. It only seems like it will make your runs on the RPF more expensive.

Currently you’re using a shop in China, and this is the least expensive way to facilitate a large run while also making a small profit.

If you move production to a shop in Europe/America, you say the cost will go up, resulting in higher prices for RPF’ers wanting to buy here from reputable dealers.

Inevitably a shady scam-artist will purchase one of your European/American sabers, send it off the same old factories in China to be reverse-engineered, and your designs will be selling on less-reputable sites for less than your prices, possibly actually driving less-informed or RPF-ignorant people directly to those sites that stole and copied your work. Then, the Chinese factory that the scammer used to copy your saber will probably start selling it on alibaba.

All you would have really done is caused your prices to go up, and add some time to the scammer getting his version made, but the ultimate outcome would be the same: stolen sabers sold by shady dealers and factory copies on alibaba.

I support RPF runs with my money and I don’t buy recast anything or purchase from blacklisted sellers. I would hate to see RPF saber runs become more expensive, I would rather see people buy better products from reputable dealers at the lowest price and reward those who create them with business.

This I only agree with in part because you might not know the half of it if you haven’t been dealing with the manufacturers directly:
Some of this stuff shows up on Alibaba if you even *quoted* it with a shop.

The overhead and pain of dealing with some of these Chinese machine shops related to the recent uptick in shipping/import/export…
issues in production management
Errors in production
Communication errors
Quality control
Shipping losses
…sucks a TON of money out of what consumers like yourself see. Time spent dealing with these kinds of issues is OUR lost time. If time is money I’d rather have paid for convenience and had more time because that’s all the same to the consumer.

In that regard, a proper setup and contract with a domestic manufacturer who is *willing to compete* CAN be competitive and that is exactly what we’re looking into before you go jumping into conclusions. More reliable, and more expensive for US maybe but the point is to make it competitive not just for us but for consumers because I’d rather pay more out of pocket, get paid less (not that I’m making anything anyway), and make sure that I’m not wasting so much of my time while I also have a day job… that’s what some of us are trying make happen.

Doing so also ensures that one’s recast product isn’t progressing steadily and being spread to 89 or Alibaba by the factory they had quote them vs the factory they gave their contract to after.

 

[James Kenobi 1138]

before you go jumping into conclusions.

The definition of a conclusion is a judgement or decision reached by reasoning, which I did based on what (very little) I know from my perspective. Obviously I don’t know as much as those with experience, I even called myself dense and that I didn’t understand.

I appreciate how you explained the benefits of moving production and gave more insight into the process. I’m always happy and eager to learn, especially from those with both knowledge and the desire to share.

I’m just sorry I seemed to have upset you, it wasn’t my intention.

 

[BRRogers]

“Before one might jump to conclusions”
Might’ve been better phrasing while thinking and writing excitedly.
Im trying to be convincing not defensive while my wife waits for me to take the trash out lol
You’re fine J, I’m not upset just typing quickly

 

[Verity Cosplay]

This has been a sad day. I saw this begin to flare last night and woke up to so many friends' and colleagues' messages in my inbox asking "did you see that happened?"

*sigh* this is an all too common scenario of late.

My heartfelt sympathies go out to Anakin Starkiller, and while I cannot speak for BRRogers, I myself feel indirectly victimized because of the shared work that Anakin Starkiller, BRRogers and I did collaboratively early on to ultimately yield both Dan's and our Hero hilts. Not to at ALL minimize how upset Dan is (and rightfully so), but rather to state I can sympathize with how he's feeling.

I have in fact found myself sharing less detail as we work through designs so the notion of makers and designers beginning to take their work underground is very very much true. And it is very sad. We fight the urge because as it was stated by DaveP, some of this helps establish authenticity and provenance.

I also feel for khal1993. Because I feel he honestly did NOT know. Khal has demonstrated time and time again that he is a champion against fraud and recasting. Anyone who wonders about that look at the DX fiasco that Khal was at the forefront of.

So this whole situation has left me saddened because I respect both Dan and Khal so very much.

I will also say this: there is SO much information even people deep in the community can fall into unwitting support of sketchy things. I bought a Vader helmet. I was looking for something 501st level and found something and purchased it: I LATER found out it was by a questionable seller who had been suspected of recasting. Did I support recasting? Yeah probably. Am I happy with my purchase? Yes. Would I buy from the seller again? Probably not. Am I a bad person? Who knows but I like to think I am not and that I support ethical replicas.

Then to layer on to this designers have become so paranoid about their work being stolen that the mere act of buying a hilt automatically lays suspicion that, as a designer, you will recast their work. Yes, we have been accused of this, and it was absolutely false, but nonetheless the accusation and cloud is there. So it's very nuanced when you are both a designer and a passionate fan wanting to also support other makers.

case and point: we are doing a Leia. Khal knows I own one. He also knows that our design was nearly complete before I ever purchased one AND I spoke with him directly to make sure full transparency was there and that if he had any concerns that I wanted to discuss them before we ever opened ordering. Khal, is an absolutely standup guy and is very gracious.

Dan also forever has my respect.

I say all this to simply say this: it's never black and white except in the cases of the most egregious and unethical recasting (which I personally believe 89 may have done here). I also caution that it is very easy to cast broad brush strokes and lay condemnation when cases can be much more subtle. I wish it were much easier to be absolutely righteous all the time but it is more challenging than a flip of the switch. It's a moral compass and it should be the guiding path for any true lover of this fandom wanting to support designers.

I may catch some heat for this but after percolating on this all for the day, that is the best I have.

my heart goes out to all who have been troubled or stressed by the events of all of this.

 

[thd9791]

Yes absolutely! Even to a novice like me I can see the attention to detail that are in the "limited edition" "exclusive" runs is far beyond anything else that's out there. Problem that arose for me tho is that I would love to be able to buy many of those sabers that are just not available anymore and I have no idea when/if they would ever be again. Since they are limited and its impossible to know if there is gonna be another run I'm kinda stuck settling for 2nd rate sabers or waiting to catch a random member sale. Even getting info in the saber community has been incredibly daunting, the rebel armory for a novice is virtually impossible to navigate and the facebook communities are more about showing your collections then learning or finding out about the sabers themselves. Its been a pleasure tho figuring out things bit by bit. Just wish there was more options out there that weren't in the "limited" category, then at least my wife can buy me a Christmas or birthday present that I would enjoy! Lol

You're not alone. When I joined, there was rumor of an Anakin Starkiller metal ROTJ saber that was the PEAK of accuracy back then. I was 6 or 7 years too late I think. In order for a person to pull this off it's a lot of money up front, a lot of work on their end while have a normal job, etc. so..i guess I was unhappy because I couldn't have what I wanted then and there..

but I'm suggesting some empathy and an understanding of the process. They're only limited because someone normal like you acted like a whole factory/storefront and one can't do that all the time without lots of sacrifices.

I just did a run where I sold vintage boards and just packaging and shipping them took days.

Machine shops also will only buy into an ongoing contract for a lot of money and a whole system set up so they can reliably sell everything I think..

 

[BRRogers]

You're not alone. When I joined, there was rumor of an Anakin Starkiller metal ROTJ saber that was the PEAK of accuracy back then. I was 6 or 7 years too late I think. In order for a person to pull this off it's a lot of money up front, a lot of work on their end while have a normal job, etc. so..i guess I was unhappy because I couldn't have what I wanted then and there..

but I'm suggesting some empathy and an understanding of the process. They're only limited because someone normal like you acted like a whole factory/storefront and one can't do that all the time without lots of sacrifices.

I just did a run where I sold vintage boards and just packaging and shipping them took days.

Machine shops also will only buy into an ongoing contract for a lot of money and a whole system set up so they can reliably sell everything I think..

Yep. That’s why most of the machined runs cost less the more are ordered.
Domestic machining runs aren’t economical unless a large order is bundled together or a contract made that is viable

 

[AdmiralBaxter]

I'm sort of new into the sabers community (last 2 to 3 years), although I will admit that I started off building Start Trek TOS Tricorders back in the 80's and everything I did was simply because I loved doing it. Then like now with sabers folks were pumping thousands into doing a short super accurate run.

There USED to be a highly structed order of mutual respect (I haven't done any type of run in the last 5 years) and until the last 1.5 pages mutual respect is what has been missing on this topic.

I'm sure some of you guys put a lot of love into what you do, just do them for the right reasons...

Nice to see folks with passion these days

 

[thd9791]

This may be me reading too much into things - if so I apologize and ignore this

I'm always careful when people talk about the good old days when people had respect because many times in society that wasn't true, someone was getting hurt, there was just lots of respect for certain people not everyone. Just in case anyone reading this didn't experience that.

Especially with this ongoing issue of copying and recasting - it's enough to get some people banned from the site so I think its totally possible to stick to our guns and uphold community standards. Art and co. would have to make specific wording if it hasn't already been done.

 

[AdmiralBaxter]

People always get hurt when some are less than honest, that has been going on forever.

Near the end of my doing active runs most were sold before I ever posted about them..

I was simply surprised that the passion still exists.

 

[DarthRobert]

really interesting , i try to align these two sabers in Photoshop, found that if you match one of the parts, the others automatically matches perfectly in aspect ratio, very interesting . if 89sabers are not get the measurements data from same sources as AS, that data must from somewhere else.

 

[joberg]

People always get hurt when some are less than honest, that has been going on forever.

Near the end of my doing active runs most were sold before I ever posted about them..

I was simply surprised that the passion still exists.

Would signing a sale's contract between the artist and his/her client be the answer? I'm not versed into the legal nitty-gritty of drawing documents stating clearly that the artist/vendor has the right to claim damages if said piece is re-casted or sold to third parties and re-casted as well.
I know that, by stating that the first client would still be responsible for a third parties re-cast seems unfair; that being said, it might make certain people think twice about re-casting anything. Again, not a specialist in legal stuff and would appreciate the advice of someone who knows.

 

[Scruffylooking]

Would signing a sale's contract between the artist and his/her client be the answer? I'm not versed into the legal nitty-gritty of drawing documents stating clearly that the artist/vendor has the right to claim damages if said piece is re-casted or sold to third parties and re-casted as well.
I know that, by stating that the first client would still be responsible for a third parties re-cast seems unfair; that being said, it might make certain people think twice about re-casting anything. Again, not a specialist in legal stuff and would appreciate the advice of someone who knows.

A gentleman’s agreement in essence, not binding by any law. A similar NDA exists/existed with the Vader SL helmet buyers and that has made no difference as there are definitely recasts of that out there.

 

[cboath]

So what you are saying is .. you can’t buy an apple phone from apple... so you go and buy a repop from China because you have to have it now instead of waiting for them to make another run of them?
sorry it almost sounds like you are condoning what 89sabers is doing.

edit-
Really the point is to support the ones doing the research and all the time it takes to manufacture something from the source. Even if it means waiting for another possible run. Anything other than that just dilutes the work involved.

I don't disagree, and i'm sure neither does he. He's just saying there are impatient people out there who refuse to wait. No more, no less. That said, I don't think that's why these guys exist. It's people who simply don't know any better, or people who are flat out cheap. Pre-pandemic i went to a football watch party group for years. People would brag out the 'great deal' they got on jersey's on ebay swearing (or trying to justify to themselves) they got a great deal. These things were frequently horrendous and wouldn't pass for authentic ever, but they were more proud they got them cheap (from china, almost always) than anything else.

 

[el toro]

China isn’t entered into any of the World IP treaties that the US is also entered into. And even if the US were, good luck trying to enforce your rights under that treaty, unless you have time and significant funds to hire lawyers. Currently, the Chinese legal system is the Wild West out there. So trying to enforce any sort of non-use agreement would be legally and practically useless.

 

[cboath]

Would signing a sale's contract between the artist and his/her client be the answer? I'm not versed into the legal nitty-gritty of drawing documents stating clearly that the artist/vendor has the right to claim damages if said piece is re-casted or sold to third parties and re-casted as well.
I know that, by stating that the first client would still be responsible for a third parties re-cast seems unfair; that being said, it might make certain people think twice about re-casting anything. Again, not a specialist in legal stuff and would appreciate the advice of someone who knows.

Good luck suing a chineese manufacturer over bootleg sabers from the US or Europe - even with a contract.

China - the country - doesn't care one iota. People burned copies of Windows, movies, games, etc and sold them for peanuts there on the street, and when the companies complained, China basically said, how do you know they aren't legit? and did nothing. I think eventually they something, but it was a token effort at best. As noted, it's the wild west because the sheriff abdicates any and all responsibility.

Thanks for sharing Dave I 100% agree with the sentiments you’ve shared. I have to thank and commend you for striking a very fine balance between collaboration, open transparency and more recently limiting ‘some’ of the nuances or specifics shared during development so that it doesn’t hinder the success of your work, counter intuitive yes but protections are sometimes required for certain details that are more delicate in nature.




This I only agree with in part because you might not know the half of it if you haven’t been dealing with the manufacturers directly:
Some of this stuff shows up on Alibaba if you even *quoted* it with a shop.

The overhead and pain of dealing with some of these Chinese machine shops related to the recent uptick in shipping/import/export…
issues in production management
Errors in production
Communication errors
Quality control
Shipping losses
…sucks a TON of money out of what consumers like yourself see. Time spent dealing with these kinds of issues is OUR lost time. If time is money I’d rather have paid for convenience and had more time because that’s all the same to the consumer.

In that regard, a proper setup and contract with a domestic manufacturer who is *willing to compete* CAN be competitive and that is exactly what we’re looking into before you go jumping into conclusions. More reliable, and more expensive for US maybe but the point is to make it competitive not just for us but for consumers because I’d rather pay more out of pocket, get paid less (not that I’m making anything anyway), and make sure that I’m not wasting so much of my time while I also have a day job… that’s what some of us are trying make happen.

Doing so also ensures that one’s recast product isn’t progressing steadily and being spread to 89 or Alibaba by the factory they had quote them vs the factory they gave their contract to after.

Not to mention in dealing directly with china, it's not uncommon for them to make 100 for you and 100 or more for themselves, etc. There are flat out a lot of illegal knock offs in all sorts of markets because the shops/mills/factories/etc have these things going whether knowingly or not.

So, if going through another trusted shop means it takes them 2 years to be able to put out the knockoff, it's a lot better than 2 weeks.

 

[Jmeek2004]

Being a graphic artist I am constantly emailing companies to take down products using my art without permission. Much like Kal these companies don’t know where the art originates. They have to take the word of the person providing the art to make the product. 99 out of 100 times they are cool with taking down the product. I am fortunate to have a support system that looks out for these kind of things and help out with legal action for that 1% who won’t cooperate.
The problem in the art world is too many people think that if you find an image on the internet and alter it slightly or redraw it, it is somehow fair game. It clearly isn’t. People who take advantage of someone else’s experience and hard work for a quick buck just end up hearting the system.
I truly feel for both Anakin Starkiller for having his designs swiped. That isn’t fair. I also feel bad for Kal who makes wonderful products and seems like a stand up guy who fell for someone’s deception. There seems to be a pretty good support group on the RPF to keep an eye on these kinds of things. It hurts my heart to see finger pointing. I’m glad to see that things were more or less resolved even though damage has already been done.
Not that anyone asked, but that is my 2 cents. This kind of thing happens all the time in other creative mediums. As a community we need to look out for each other and especially the creative people who put a lot of work into making something we couldn’t make ourselves. Both Anakin Starkiller and Kal have my support. Not so much for 89 sabers.

 

[AdmiralBaxter]

Would signing a sale's contract between the artist and his/her client be the answer? I'm not versed into the legal nitty-gritty of drawing documents stating clearly that the artist/vendor has the right to claim damages if said piece is re-casted or sold to third parties and re-casted as well.
I know that, by stating that the first client would still be responsible for a third parties re-cast seems unfair; that being said, it might make certain people think twice about re-casting anything. Again, not a specialist in legal stuff and would appreciate the advice of someone who knows.

Sure there could be a sales document to record the sale.... I don't see how any artist has the right to claim damages as the nature of this hobby is to recreate works of art that are legally owned by some one else without their permission.

It would be quite easy to determine the condition of making a sale, yet claiming damages for for any theft and / or recasting would be a legal tight rope I wouldn't want to deal with in court.

In the end a Gentleman's agreement is all that's left. Considering folks are buying products an shipping them to China to be copied for sale leaves the artist with even less recourse...

That's just my take on it.

 

[Vagabond Elf]

Would signing a sale's contract between the artist and his/her client be the answer? I'm not versed into the legal nitty-gritty of drawing documents stating clearly that the artist/vendor has the right to claim damages if said piece is re-casted or sold to third parties and re-casted as well.
I know that, by stating that the first client would still be responsible for a third parties re-cast seems unfair; that being said, it might make certain people think twice about re-casting anything. Again, not a specialist in legal stuff and would appreciate the advice of someone who knows.

So, first of, as I've said three times today in various places I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. I did, however, work for 8 years as a librarian in the Alberta legal system, so I have a better-than-average understanding of how the law works in general.

What I think you're suggesting is a contract between the maker of a replica here on therpf, and the buyer of that replica, requiring that the buyer not allow their copy to be used for re-casting, etc. I'm basing the rest of this on that assumption.

First, it's kind of unneccessary. If I go and buy a Barbie doll from Toys'R'Us right now and then recast that and sell it, I'm already in violation of Mattel's intellectual property. The purchase from TRU was for the physical object, not the right to recreate. (If I recast a dozen Barbies and only use them for my own purposes I may or may not be in violation of the IP, that's something that will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and probably depends much more on judicial precedent than on statutes passed by various governments.) A purchase from a maker here on therpf has the same implied conditions.

Second, it's probably unenforceable. First, when recasts of your replica start showing up, you'd have to prove that it was my copy that got recast and not someone else's. That may or may not be doable. Next, assuming you can demonstrate it was my copy that was recast, you'd have to prove that I knowingly or negligently allowed that to happen. Finally, you'd have to actually sue me to get any compensation.

For Mattel, who have an in-house legal team and both a huge amount of money to spend on legal battles and a huge amount of money at risk if they don't protect their IP, that lawsuit is worth it. For the hobby maker here? It may be, it may not, particularly as it's likely to involve another country's laws and courts. Even leaving China out of it, members of this forum are all over the world and if I were to copy a replica, the maker would have to sue me under Alberta law, not the law of wherever they are.

As an added complication to the suit, these are replicas of (usually) Lucasfilm or Disney IP. Now, that doesn't make it morally acceptable to copy them, and it doesn't automatically void the maker's IP in their replica, but it does complicate things and that will make the suit more expensive. It also creates a risk that Disney will step in and shut the replica maker down. I don't know how big a risk that is, but I'm sure it's not zero.

Thirdly, based on my experiences collecting Transformers, I imagine much of the re-casting is actually being done by the factories themselves when makers here ask for quotes or production lines. The factory will still have all the tooling, after all, and depending on the contract with the factory it might not even be breaking the rules for them to do their own production run alongside ours! Meaning that a contract between a buyer and seller here isn't even addressing the problem.

 

[Vagabond Elf]

On the subject of helping new members find ethically correct replicas to purchase: one problem I, personally, have faced when trying to buy from a reputable buyer here is figuring out how the heck to find them! There's a lot of people who reference makers by first names and the parts run forum is pretty chaotic. I don't have a practical suggestion for improvement... but there's been more than one time when, in my attempt to figure out who was actually making the kit or part I ended up having to Google it. This, of course, tends to also bring up all the less scrupulous sites as well.

I'm proud to say that my main reaction has been to just give up - I have 10 things I want for every dollar I have, so when I run into that sort of problem here I just go "screw it" and buy a Transformer or whatnot instead of trying to sort out who is a legit maker, who's a recaster, and who is just a scam. But both the book industry and the music industry figured out some time ago that the best way to prevent piracy is to make it easy to buy the legit item. (It doesn't have to be cheaper, just simple.) Obviously there's a limit to how much effort folks here can spare for that... but if anyone comes up with a way to make it quick and easy to identify who the trusted makers are and where one purchases their work, I suspect that would help reduce the number of recasts being sold.

Just putting the idea out there for folks to mull over!