Joek3rr
Master Member
The Bantam era tends get mixed reviews from EU fans. Most tend to agree that things really got kicked into high gear with the Del Rey era. The Clone Wars Multi Media Project might be the high point of the EU.
Lets talk all things Star Wars
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Disney can write all the crap they want, but they can't take the books and games away. I think I read probably 99% of the EU as far as books, and I ended up selling the ones I didn't like, but still have quite a few. I would still say that The Crystal Star, considered THE worst EU novel by most people, is still more well written than the entire Sequel trilogy!
Heck; at the rate Disney's going, The Star Wars Holiday Special and The Ewok Adventure had better stories!
All they have to do is use the world between worlds as the multiverse, start over with a different story.. but with mando it’s clear to me they aren’t going to erase any of this “some how palpatine has returned” story..
Palpatine: world's worst case of plot armor.
Wakeem
Sr Member
I don't know if this was answered here before. But does anyone know why in Return of the Jedi, Palpatine thought Luke would take Vader's place after defeating him? As a kid, that didn't make sense that Luke would do that. I vaguely remember some explanation in the book but I need to unbox and re-read it to be sure. Still, it's one of those things that isn't clear just from the movie.
Great question!
As I understand it, it comes down to the fact that to kill the Emperor in that moment is an act of murder. Properly handled, he should only be killed by a Jedi in self-defense. Otherwise, he should be arrested and stand trial. That's the right way to do it. Luke knew this. In fact, his plan was merely to distract the Emperor so that they would all die when the Death Star blew up.
For Luke to "lash out" and decide to execute Palpatine out of revenge and hatred means that the powers he would use to do so could only come from the Dark Side. And to use such Dark Side power (which Luke has already been doing in this movie, like choking guards) would mean that he would lose control of his moral center and be the possession of the Dark Side, as Palpatine and Vader are. His very desires would be different, and he would only care about the power he could achieve at the cost of all else. That's why it's thought of as "falling". You kind of lose your agency. You lose your ability to decide to do right.
This is why it is so important to understand that Vader's love for his son broke through that power, and released him so that he could make his own decision to save Luke.
So yes, Luke would have willingly taken Vader's place as apprentice, but only long enough to try to kill Palpatine for the Dark Side power he would gain. But that is still lost to anything good.
UPDATE: George Lucas doubled-down on this in Episode III. Remember the conversation between Mace Windu and Anakin? Windu (who already flirts with the Dark Side anyway) wanted to execute Palpatine: "He's too dangerous to be left alive." And Anakin's response: "That's not the Jedi way." This also makes it tragically ironic that a Jedi's act of Darkness was the trigger for Anakin's turn. His murder of Windu was his moment of "fall". This adds more meaning to the same scene in Episode VI.
As I understand it, it comes down to the fact that to kill the Emperor in that moment is an act of murder. Properly handled, he should only be killed by a Jedi in self-defense. Otherwise, he should be arrested and stand trial. That's the right way to do it. Luke knew this. In fact, his plan was merely to distract the Emperor so that they would all die when the Death Star blew up.
For Luke to "lash out" and decide to execute Palpatine out of revenge and hatred means that the powers he would use to do so could only come from the Dark Side. And to use such Dark Side power (which Luke has already been doing in this movie, like choking guards) would mean that he would lose control of his moral center and be the possession of the Dark Side, as Palpatine and Vader are. His very desires would be different, and he would only care about the power he could achieve at the cost of all else. That's why it's thought of as "falling". You kind of lose your agency. You lose your ability to decide to do right.
This is why it is so important to understand that Vader's love for his son broke through that power, and released him so that he could make his own decision to save Luke.
So yes, Luke would have willingly taken Vader's place as apprentice, but only long enough to try to kill Palpatine for the Dark Side power he would gain. But that is still lost to anything good.
UPDATE: George Lucas doubled-down on this in Episode III. Remember the conversation between Mace Windu and Anakin? Windu (who already flirts with the Dark Side anyway) wanted to execute Palpatine: "He's too dangerous to be left alive." And Anakin's response: "That's not the Jedi way." This also makes it tragically ironic that a Jedi's act of Darkness was the trigger for Anakin's turn. His murder of Windu was his moment of "fall". This adds more meaning to the same scene in Episode VI.
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I've been saying for years that they should just have the whole Sequel trilogy be a Force vision that Luke has. He wakes up like "Whoa, shouldn't do that..." and start over.
I've been saying for years that they should just have the whole Sequel trilogy be a Force vision that Luke has. He wakes up like "Whoa, shouldn't do that..." and start over.
If only.
Luke wakes up, looks around. Realizes it was a dream. He shakes his head and says "Man, I gotta stop eating burritos from that Mos Eisley food cart . . ."
Wakeem
Sr Member
I was kind of hoping for an answer without considering the Prequels. Luke wouldn't be arresting the Emperor. After all, when you consider the Prequels for that scene in Return of the Jedi:
1. Luke wouldn't throw away his lightsaber since he might need it to block the Force lightning from the Emperor like Obi-Wan in Episode 2. At the least, Luke would clip it on his belt.
2. Or Luke should attempt to block or absorb the lightning like Yoda. I think the book mentioned Luke attempting and of course that was written before the Prequels. Personally I wish George Lucas edited just a small frame or two of Luke attempting to block the lightning into the Special Edition. Considering he mentioned adding a small part to that Obi-Wan vs Anakin battle in the control room during Revenge of the Sith. And with all the other big additions to the Special Edition.
Sure, and taking the prequels out, I still think my interpretation stands. Luke was certainly not planning to arrest Palpatine. He was planning to ensure Palpatine stayed on the Death Star while the Rebels blew it up. But striking him down as an act of hate is completely another matter. Palpatine made a distinct point of saying that he is unarmed. There are two ways to read that: (1) I won't stop you, and (2) you have nothing to hide behind. I'm inclined to think that both apply here, as Palpatine was VERY clear: "Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete."
Basically, if he could get Luke's hate to run hot enough, the Dark Side would take over.
Basically, if he could get Luke's hate to run hot enough, the Dark Side would take over.
And NOW we know from TROS that, had Luke struck down Papa Palps and Palpatine allowed Luke to do so, then ALL of the Sith spirits that inhabited Palpatine would transfer to Luke, making him the "new" Emperor.
Technically speaking: When Vader defeats Palps by hurling him down the elevator shaft and Palps explodes into a Sith hurricane, Palps SHOULD have possessed Vader at that point and re-invigorated him, thus making Vader the new Emperor. But we could say that, as Vader was actively dying, the Spirit could not inhabit the body that actually defeated Palps. And Luke never touched/fought Palps, so Luke was "out of bounds" for possession.
Isn't then new canon of Episode 9 fun???!!!
HeartBlade
Sr Member
I always thought Palps was just taunting Luke to strike him because his end goal was to crush his spirit of goodness and turn him into his next apprentice and replace Vader. He knew Vader would block Luke’s strike and would inevitably lead to a clash between the two. If Vader wins, Luke wasnt worthy as a replacement. If Luke wins, he could only do so by tapping into the dark side and would fulfill his fall by willingly killing his own father, his fall being complete as shown with his vision in Dagobah.
Luke does tap into his anger to overwhelm Vader but choses the third option of controlling the momentary lapse and reaffirm his belief as a jedi. He thought the Emperor was helpless so threw his weapon away to show that he was committed to peace. Hence why Palps got upset that he couldnt turn him so decided to end him with force lightning since he wasnt “useful” to him anymore (its the first time we see force lightning and its powerful stuff, hence why only someone incredibly capable like Yoda could “block” and absorb it. Even PT Obi Wan blocked with his saber and Anakin got hit and knocked out in episode 2 and Luke is no Anakin at this point.
One ongoing belief for both the Sith and the Jedi is once you go dark, you never come back. Neither side ever thought that Vader could ever be redeemed. So thats why Palps couldnt have foreseen Vader betraying and killing him to save his own son. Palps possibly could have foreseen it if Vader chose this time when Palps was “vulnerable” to kill him and take over but not when it was done out of love, hence why redeeming Vader was essential to overthrowing Palpatine.
Luke does tap into his anger to overwhelm Vader but choses the third option of controlling the momentary lapse and reaffirm his belief as a jedi. He thought the Emperor was helpless so threw his weapon away to show that he was committed to peace. Hence why Palps got upset that he couldnt turn him so decided to end him with force lightning since he wasnt “useful” to him anymore (its the first time we see force lightning and its powerful stuff, hence why only someone incredibly capable like Yoda could “block” and absorb it. Even PT Obi Wan blocked with his saber and Anakin got hit and knocked out in episode 2 and Luke is no Anakin at this point.
One ongoing belief for both the Sith and the Jedi is once you go dark, you never come back. Neither side ever thought that Vader could ever be redeemed. So thats why Palps couldnt have foreseen Vader betraying and killing him to save his own son. Palps possibly could have foreseen it if Vader chose this time when Palps was “vulnerable” to kill him and take over but not when it was done out of love, hence why redeeming Vader was essential to overthrowing Palpatine.
That's one of the only problems I think the Prequels created, that Luke throws his lightsaber away. However, thinking about it, I think Luke did that knowing that Vader would turn back and save him.
I figure Palpatine was just better at throwing Force-lightning by the time he did it to Luke.
A top-grade Jedi facing off against a top-grade Sith . . . it's not the kind of skill they would have a lot of opportunity to practice. Palpatine was probably overconfident with it when he faced Yoda in Ep#3. He came away spooked that he wasn't as good with it as he thought. Time to go home and work on the skills.
Luke, he had probably never even seen or heard of Force-lightning when Palpatine did it to him. He didn't have time to think when it was happening. Maybe he was already capable of absorbing & throwing it back but he never knew to try.
A top-grade Jedi facing off against a top-grade Sith . . . it's not the kind of skill they would have a lot of opportunity to practice. Palpatine was probably overconfident with it when he faced Yoda in Ep#3. He came away spooked that he wasn't as good with it as he thought. Time to go home and work on the skills.
Luke, he had probably never even seen or heard of Force-lightning when Palpatine did it to him. He didn't have time to think when it was happening. Maybe he was already capable of absorbing & throwing it back but he never knew to try.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
I think absorbing force lighting and throwing it back is meant to be a very difficult skill that not even the masters can pull off. Again, Obi Wan choosing to use his saber to block after seeing Dooku use it on Anakin. While Windu was caught unaware with Anakin cutting off his hand, he probably could have redirected or “blocked” with one hand if he could since Yoda did in episode 2.
In the books, force lightning is a very advanced dark side technique that only the most skilled could use, hence Dooku and Sidious. Not sure if Yoda uses a rare or innate technique (some say uses “energy absorption” on the force lightning to “absorb” it which he did in 3 as opposed to merely redirecting in 2 which apparently only a few jedi masters can use since Yoda can also block/absorb blaster bolts) but regardless, both are very high level skills that would be out of Jedi Knight tier Luke’s wheelhouse. He might be able to do it by Mando or at his prime pre-ST but definitely not during RotJ where he was probably unaware it even existed.
I do think Luke was also an insanely fast learner. Like’s feats are arguably held back by the limited CGI during OT but he went from barely knowing and sensing the force in ANH to being able to force jump and out up enough of a fight to not get captured by Vader in ESB. Thats a pretty big leap for a dude with basically weeks to maybe months of training total (he gets a couple days worth with Obi Wan and several with Yoda only vs PT jedi who trained since birth). Luke is good but he still gets clowned on by Vader in ESB and despite the strides, still isnt much of a match for hesitant Vader and gets obliterated by Palpatine. But this is also kind of realistic.
I think this is a really good point. We are meant to understand that Luke was already a prodigy as a pilot:
- "I understand you've become quite a pilot yourself."
- "I used to bullseye womprats in my T-16 back home."
Anakin, also being a prodigy as a child pilot, was clearly using the Force and not knowing it. I think it's perfectly reasonable for Luke to have been doing the same. If Anakin, with NO TRAINING, could see the objects in Mace Windu's pad during his first Jedi Council test, it stands to reason that Luke could see the training remote.
But again, taking prequels and sequels out of it, I believe we are meant to understand the previous point...Luke's act of hatred would subvert his very will and ability to choose: "Strike me down with all of your hatred and your journey towards the Dark Side will be complete." Why else would Palpatine tip his hand and risk Luke making a different choice?
Palpatine took a risk, seeing he was that close to pulling Luke the rest of the way in. His mistake: not seeing that Luke wasn't so fragile...
Indeed. I feel like Luke was not only forged by all his hardship in Episode 5, but we know that he was also motivated by a growing love for Vader. Palpatine could not understand this.
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