Lets talk all things Star Wars
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cboath
Master Member
Rogue Squadron is a movie isn't it?
This isn't EVERYTHING they're doing in the new few years, just what they're admitting to.
ghostryder
Legendary Member
harrisonp
Sr Member
I clicked over to the concept for Pasaana and it never ceases to amaze me how these planets that are conceptualized as marshy or forested end up as, drum roll, deserts! They did the same thing with Jakku and I hate it.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Didn’t know they had an explicit falling out. I think there is an implied one when she sided with Disney and their new ST as opposed to pushing Lucas’ ST treatment scripts. Given that a Lucas put KK in charge to “protect his legacy” so to speak, that was a stab in the back for him.
Wasn’t Disney blaming Star Wars fatigue for why the movies did poorly though? Not sure adding a bunch of stuff is the right strategy although a throw ideas to the wall and see what sticks does seem to be the strategy (Maldalorian is a big hit and I don’t think they know why).
Given that Disney Plus is also getting a price hike, I’m going to take a wait and see approach. They also have a ton of Marvel stuff coming out which does seem interesting. The success of the MCU and the need to really watch everything to get a proper understanding of the overall narrative does make Disney plus more appealing to Marvel fans.
A cinematic universe would be terrible for Star Wars though. I don’t think fans are invested enough so the small crossover references like they did with Mandalorian is good enough for now. If they write a superb story, maybe but it’s got to be earned
cboath
Master Member
I always laughed at the fatigue excuse. It was nothing but suits passing the buck on their screw ups. SW put out 5 flicks in 4.5 years and it was fatigue. Marvel put out what? 11-12 in the same time frame - and many more over many more years and they're still going strong. And, uh, make no mistake about it, Rogue 1, TFA, TLJ, and RoTS, were not fatigued in box office dollars. Those 4 averaged well over 1B each. Solo was the only 'problem'. And while I liked it, I don't think they chose well for Han and i think that and the press leading up to it (firing the directors, etc) kill that. Good product doesn't suffer from fatigue. Bad product suffers because it's bad.
Things tend to work out much better when you admit your mistakes and try and learn from them. Passing the bucks means you learned squat.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Kind of an old video but frames why the prequels were important.
Even Filoni seems to imply that the old Jedi order was wrong because they didn’t embrace love and connection which led to Anakin’s downfall.
it does provide a more interesting narrative and really makes me feel that the prequels were great ideas poorly executed. The Jedi order being flawed as well as Yoda and Obi Wan. Although Anakin made many wrong choices, he didn’t have the best support system. Anakin’s tragic fate was set with Qui Gon’s death.
And vindication for Qui Gon I guess lol. He was a one off character but his impact on the story is quite major (was the only one who could have prevented Anakin’s fall, was one of the reasons why Dooku left the order).
Even Filoni seems to imply that the old Jedi order was wrong because they didn’t embrace love and connection which led to Anakin’s downfall.
it does provide a more interesting narrative and really makes me feel that the prequels were great ideas poorly executed. The Jedi order being flawed as well as Yoda and Obi Wan. Although Anakin made many wrong choices, he didn’t have the best support system. Anakin’s tragic fate was set with Qui Gon’s death.
And vindication for Qui Gon I guess lol. He was a one off character but his impact on the story is quite major (was the only one who could have prevented Anakin’s fall, was one of the reasons why Dooku left the order).
Solo4114
Master Member
I mean, yes, they were the same person, but -- and this is the critical part -- not for Luke. At least, not for purpose of "with whom did Luke have a relationship who could also show up as a Force ghost?" There's a pretty short list there: Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin. Nobody else would really fit (e.g., Qui-Gon), and almost nobody else apparently knows how to do it (although that could easily be retconned).
When Johnson says "Luke's relationship was with Vader," that's primarily correct from Luke's perspective. In the first film, Luke literally never interacts with Vader, but instead has a clear perception of who Vader is as a person. Vader murdered his father. Vader was the one who ultimately ordered the murder of his family on Tatooine. Vader killed Ben who, other than Owen, was the only father-figure he had. Vader tried to kill him in the Trench Run.
By the second film, Luke is being pursued by Vader, and Luke's attitude towards him is that he's evil and needs to be defeated. Luke's experience in the cave has a double-meaning, both in terms of highlighting the potential for evil within Luke at a baseline, and hinting at Luke's true parentage. When Vader confronts him on Cloud City, Luke only then discovers the truth, but crucially rejects Vader as his father, choosing his own death instead. That he survives is a miracle, or the Force in action.
By the third film, Luke has made peace with the idea, but believes he can redeem his father. But even then, his only interactions with him are maybe a day or two in captivity and then when Vader finally destroys the Emperor.
Ultimately, Luke's relationship is more with Anakin-as-Vader than it is with Anakin-as-redeemed (in his son's eyes -- we can debate whether a single good act cancels out all the bad). Rey has more of a relationship with Ben than Luke does with Anakin or Vader, I'd say.
So, yeah, I think Johnson has the right of it by saying it didn't make sense to have Anakin's Force ghost IF the point of the exchange was to have Luke speak with a mentor and father-figure. Yoda was far more that than Anakin ever was.
That said, I do think it would've been nice to have Hayden return and serve as a mentor to Luke in a troubled time. But I think the content of that interaction would have to be much more about, say, Ben's fall and his capacity for redemption (about which Anakin would know plenty) than a general discussion about the overall wisdom of the Jedi and what it means to be a teacher and a "parent" of sorts. The whole "We are what they grow beyond" really only makes sense coming from Yoda, for Luke. Well, since Alec Guinness is dead and all...
That's part of it, yeah. I mean, Obi-Wan absolutely bulls**ts him about Vader and Anakin. And then he weasels his way out of it after the fact. And we can ascribe various motivations to him for that decision, but at the end of the day, what's more important for Luke is Luke's own perception of Vader and his own relationship with Anakin-as-Vader.
This is something that I think a lot of fans lose sight of, because we're effectively outside of the story. We aren't inside it, living the experience. We, as the audience, have a degree of omniscience. We know things that characters often don't. Likewise, characters often know things we don't. Rey knew who her parents were to her. (Which is why the "wHo ArE rEy'S pArEnTs?!?!1?1" thing was always such a dumb, hacky, meta-textual exercise.) What mattered about the "big reveal" in TLJ was the impact of that reveal on Rey, not on the audience. Rey's choices and actions after that fact are, thematically, the important aspect of assuming the mantle of hero.
When we, as the audience, look at Luke's relationship with Vader/Anakin, we do so from the perspective of people who know the whole story, who know that Vader IS Anakin, and who know that Luke redeems him. Looking at the whole picture from our perspective, it makes at least as much sense to have Anakin there as it does to have Obi-Wan or Yoda. (again, casting issues notwithstanding) But from Luke's perspective it doesn't really make a ton of sense. Luke barely interacted with Vader, let alone Anakin after his redemption. Anakin is an important figure in Luke's life, a huge motivator, and a heavy weight going forward, but Luke's relationship with both Anakin and Anakin-as-Vader is essentially from afar, to the extent that it exists at all.
You could craft a story where Luke has a very intense and important relationship and connection with his father, even from afar. But it would require things like showing the impact upon Luke of knowing that his father engaged in such great evil, and what kind of weight that bore upon Luke. You'd have to take the time to demonstrate how Luke labored under the burden of his heritage. And that'd be a really interesting story, the same as it would for Leia and for Ben -- seeing how their heritage so weighed upon them, and how they each responded to it differently, which in turn would be a shocking contrast to Rey who believes she's a nobody. (The whole "Rey's a Palpatine!" thing was just....I'm sorry, it's just so, so stupid. It's SUCH a hack move. So ****ing uninspired and....basic, and it could've been so much better if they'd gone some other way. Like, you know, NOT MAKING IT A ****ING MYSTERY IN THE FIRST GODDAMN PLACE!!!)
But, you know....them's not the movies we got. >shrug<
HeartBlade
Sr Member
I do agree in regard to onscreen time, yes Luke has a very short interaction with unmasked Anakin but I think in terms of getting to know Anakin, Luke does get to know him through the trilogy.
Luke hears stories about Anakin/Vader from Yoda and Obi Wan and wrestled with the fact that Vader is his father. I think the force connection also gives Luke insight into Vader (not the force bond Rey and Ben have but just both being connected to the force allowing Luke to also see Vader’s feelings and thus the conflict of good and evil within him). I think Luke wrestles but acknowledges the fact that Anakin and Vader are one and the same in the time period between ESB and RotJ which is why he speaks to Vader honestly more like a friend trying to bring a loved one back to reality from their addiction as opposed to treating Vader like an enemy. Also when getting shocked, he calls out to Vader with “father,” essentially seeing Vader as his dad.
Also agree that while bringing back Hayden could have been the right choice, given the dialogue was regarding mentorship, Yoda was the right one as he was honestly Luke’s longest mentor (Obi Wan didn’t teach that much before dying). Technically Ewan could stand in as Obi Wan since force ghosts can apparently de-age (according to Lucas’ remasters) and Luke would still recognize him since he recognized Hayden as Anakin despite never seeing the young him.
Solo4114
Master Member
I mean, yeah, I think it's kind of obvious in the wake of the prequels that the great failing of the Jedi was cutting themselves off from emotion. Much of the prequels is, at its core, a psychological exploration of emotion, asceticism, and attachment both good and bad.
Anakin and the Jedi represent two different extremes. One is raw passion and unhealthy attachment to the point where it becomes possessiveness. It's entirely inwardly focused. There's some line in one of the prequels (I forget which) where Anakin says something like he loves Padme because of how beautiful she is to him or something like that. But it's all about him and what she is to him, not a greater love for Padme for her own sake, for who she is unto herself. By contrast, you have the Jedi Order, which is entirely repressive (emotionally) and forbids attachment (I mean, never mind that that clearly fails anyway, both in the films and in the Clone Wars series). The Jedi fail because the believe they have to suppress their own emotions, their own capacity for love.
We were talking about that on here back around, like, 2008 or 2009 or whenever.
That said, I think it's Dave Filioni's capacity to reach that conclusion on his own (maybe? I dunno. Is he on here? Lurking maybe? Hi, Dave! You rock! Love your work!) that makes him one of the "worthy" successors to Star Wars. He "gets" it. He understands what makes Star Wars meaningful at its core, and he knows how to still keep it so that it "feels" like the older stuff while also feeling fresh.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Is Dave reaching his own conclusions? Does he "get it", or is he just repeating what George told him? (Not dissing on Dave, I love his work as well, but I just wonder.)
HeartBlade
Sr Member
I would disagree that it is “obvious” since if it was, I think the prequels would have been better received. I think because the OT narratively had a very simple good vs evil narrative, that same mindset was also brought to PT when PT is more nuanced. Yes the dialogue in PT was pretty bad and I think they skipped over key developments due to just lack of time (which the clone wars cartoon thankfully helped fill) which hurt the narrative Lucas was trying to tell.
I do think a lot of the audience went in with the viewpoint that the Jedi were the good guys and the Republic fell because solely due to Palpatine’s machinations when in reality the Republic and Jedi also were complacent and operating on an already weakened base.
But I agree that Dave definitely gets it and more importantly, Kennedy doesn’t. The fact that she is still head of Lucasfilm and still has decision power despite not understanding the product is worrying.
robn1
Master Member
This may be the typical JJ dumbness but it's a crap ton better than the episode 8 we got, and it explains most of the questions we had about TFA.
ThreadSketch
Well-Known Member
(original source: Rare, behind-the-scenes look at 'The Empire Strikes Back' )
Just wanted to share, it's a delightful little retrospective posted today that includes some bits I've never seen before.
I could only get through the first two pages before I had to stop. Is there any way to verify this isn't just a fan fiction piece being passed off as a legitimate treatment?
robn1
Master Member
No confirmation yet, and there may not be. But some of the cast have said there was a JJ treatment that got thrown out by Ruin Johnson. And this treatment has some dumb convenient moments and mystery box crap that are classic JJ.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Yeah the ending to the script is dumb cliff-hanger mystery box. As a narrative, it is very “safe” but does follow narratives from TFA with an ok payoff and a lot of fan service (why Rey was powerful in the force, why the lightsaber called out to her, introducing the knights of Ren, Asoka appearing which ties in with Mandalorian).
it is also very obvious that although the script for RoS was completely rewritten, concepts from JJ’s old ideas likely remained (evil Rey in her vision is essentially Rey as Sith Witch being one).
There is a better understanding of Star Wars (the central theme being family) and Rey’s time with Luke and his family and essentially being adopted also would lead really nicely into Rey taking the last name Skywalker as well as it is earned here but not in the ST we got.
Not saying this script is perfect at all. The force vision outlining everything, holocron as time travel device, very little for Finn to do and introducing all these new characters results in a pretty muddy film. I also hate the force powers pulled from nowhere BS (But it picks up a lot of threads from TFA and still leaves many to be concluded in RoS (who is Spoke and what is his goal, can Rey get back to the modern age, what is Kylo’s fate, etc). I would have issues with the ending but would be interested in seeing the final entry.
But Abrams does suck at writing a good narrative without gimmicks. He should cut out a lot of fluff (second apprentice, time travel, Luke’s severed hand, elaborate trap planet) and just focus on fundamentals (Luke and his family vs need to protect galaxy, welcoming Rey as an adopted daughter, training her in the force, her budding rivalry with Kylo, Kylo’s downfall paralleling Anakin).
Either way, Abrams is not a good storyteller and needs to rely on the mystery box gimmick to keep interest
it is also very obvious that although the script for RoS was completely rewritten, concepts from JJ’s old ideas likely remained (evil Rey in her vision is essentially Rey as Sith Witch being one).
There is a better understanding of Star Wars (the central theme being family) and Rey’s time with Luke and his family and essentially being adopted also would lead really nicely into Rey taking the last name Skywalker as well as it is earned here but not in the ST we got.
Not saying this script is perfect at all. The force vision outlining everything, holocron as time travel device, very little for Finn to do and introducing all these new characters results in a pretty muddy film. I also hate the force powers pulled from nowhere BS (But it picks up a lot of threads from TFA and still leaves many to be concluded in RoS (who is Spoke and what is his goal, can Rey get back to the modern age, what is Kylo’s fate, etc). I would have issues with the ending but would be interested in seeing the final entry.
But Abrams does suck at writing a good narrative without gimmicks. He should cut out a lot of fluff (second apprentice, time travel, Luke’s severed hand, elaborate trap planet) and just focus on fundamentals (Luke and his family vs need to protect galaxy, welcoming Rey as an adopted daughter, training her in the force, her budding rivalry with Kylo, Kylo’s downfall paralleling Anakin).
Either way, Abrams is not a good storyteller and needs to rely on the mystery box gimmick to keep interest
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George Lucas: Critics of ‘Star Wars’ Prequel Dialogue ‘Don’t Understand’ the Franchise
"Attack of the Clones" is widely mocked for its cringeworthy romance dialogue between Anakin and Padmé.
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