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This is stupidly long but it's hands down my favorite breakdown of what's wrong with TLJ and the ST as a whole, much like with what RLM does with the Plinket reviews. This guy actually does a lot of really good video essays
I just went through these, had it in the background when I was tidying my place (no it's not that big, I just haven't cleaned in a while). It gets a bit too nitpicky and focuses too much on the scripts solely, but raises some really good points.

I dont give a damn about what the rest of you are arguing about, but since this is an all things Star Wars thread, I just wanted to take a sec and talk about how I just got a copy of the 4K77 edit of Star Wars. I don't remember the last time I enjoyed watching the OT this much. To me, this is how Star Wars should look only because its exactly how I remember it. Much better than the Harmy version in my opinion. If you have a chance and haven't already, pick up a copy. Especially if you already own official releases. Worth every penny. Maybe spend some time focusing on what you love about Star Wars instead of what you don't love about it.

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Nice! My Harmy set is in the making. I was considering going for the above but I'd rather wait til the whole trilogy is done and I don't have a 4K set yet. Also I know that the TN1 should be as close to the original as possible but it kind of has too much greenish tint for me. I get that it's part of faithfulness but in some scenes it bothered me. The grain is great on that though, not as surgically clean as the BR.
 
I suppose that could be a possibility for some people, but as far as people posting here it seems unlikely for several reasons

1) Well thought out discussions about the story structure.
2) Many (including myself) really WANTED to like the ST and were hopeful and positive at it's announcement.
3) TFA isn't a bad film, personally I overlooked it's flaws because I was engaged in the story (and a VERY heavy dose of nostalgia).

Is it really so hard to believe that some people don't like the new story or the film techniques used to tell it?
Your question comes off pretty snarky, turn it around on yourself. Is it possible YOU like the ST because subconsciously you HAVE to love anything Star Wars? Regardless of it's quality? Therefore these MUST be great films?
We're having a pretty open discussion here about the reasons people like or dislike various aspects of the films, your "question" seems like a broad brush to paint over the intelligent conversation we're having in order to dismiss criticism of the ST.
Is DSW really above reproach?

So to answer your question more directly.

No it's not hard to believe, we're all different. But I take exception when people starting acting like they know more about film making then the people that actually do. Now most likely when people say 'they should have done it this way, or like this instead of that.' The really mean 'for me and my personal taste they should done it like such.' Though some people just have the know-it-all syndrome, which is just stinking pride and arrogance.

And no I don't have a subconscious love for anything Star Wars. It's a very purposeful love. It all came about when watching the Prequels (at that time I hadn't watched since I was a kid) and realizing they weren't good films. But instead disliking them, I found that I could love them at still be critical of them. So it's a choice that I've made. But I think these new films are good films for the most part, some bordering on great. I mean at least they don't make me sick when I think about them (looking at you Batman v Superman).

Is DSW above reproach? Nope. Its Disney, just another big ugly studio that uses people.(but I dislike big studios in general) But with that said, I don't see Disney's hand very often in the creative process. For me their biggest misstep has been giving the gaming rights to EA and only EA. And EA is the equivalent of a big heartless movie studio.
 
I don't doubt the skills and talents involved completely. I simply question their choices. There is nothing arrogant about that. Again, having a contrasting opinion doesn't negate it entirely. I fail to see how having insight into the storytelling process is only valid if you work in the industry. If that were true then discussions like this couldn't exist. It would also invalidate your position too if that statement were true because then opinions themselves are not relevant which we all can agree is nonsense.

Have you considered that perhaps your love of this series had blinded you so much that you can't stand dissenting opinions because it bucks against that love?

I don't begrudge you your tastes but often if feels as though you keep retreading the same ground, not in a effort to understand the other side, but to convince us otherwise. I could be perceiving it wrong but that's the impression I often get by your replies.
 
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I just went through these, had it in the background when I was tidying my place (no it's not that big, I just haven't cleaned in a while). It gets a bit too nitpicky and focuses too much on the scripts solely, but raises some really good points.
Yeah, I found some to be a bit too nitpicky as well, but overall does a pretty good job. Hes much more focused on objective writing issues in later reviews once he really refined the craft. Here's another podcast that goes well with this thread from more recently on their collaborative channel (Debate starts 30:00 if you wanna skip all the EA BF2 crap). They do bring up a good point as to why is Fin forced to stay with the Resistance that he never even officially joined and is treated like a deserter, but the Rebels were totally cool with Han taking off on his own volition before the Empire showed up on Hoth
 
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No it's not hard to believe, we're all different. But I take exception when people starting acting like they know more about film making then the people that actually do. Now most likely when people say 'they should have done it this way, or like this instead of that.' The really mean 'for me and my personal taste they should done it like such.' Though some people just have the know-it-all syndrome, which is just stinking pride and arrogance.

The thing is, that's how opinions work. Either something moves you and you like it, or it bothers you and you hate it. Putting a qualifying aspect on it that say's it's pride and arrogance by having an opposing opinion to what is subjective by it's very nature says more about your approach to the discussion than it does about the points the opposition raises. Plus my perspective or anyone else's should never be judged by the merits of their involvement in the creation of art. Otherwise the entire industry of art criticism is based on a lie. Not to mention it discounts the right of every human on earth to have their own opinion.

Often you say things like this:

"No one has given me an answer to x,y,z question."

When in fact I have given you an answer, it's just not to your satisfaction. You do seem to be more open to responses that do not articulate why I feel the way I do and perhaps it's because it doesn't allow for discussion. This makes me wonder if you would prefer threads like this to be a soap box for your ideas rather than a discussion thread. To which I have responded that a methodology of that sort is best suited for a blog, where you can state your opinions without contest. Not that I wish for any of this discussion to become adversarial mind you, but I do think it should be a discussion, not a dictatorship.

Often I take the time and go to great lengths to justify my reasons for why I feel the way I do about something, trying very hard to keep my answers focused on the question raised and not deviate from my point. The reason why some here feel I have repeated myself and have basically reworded the same arguments over and over is because I have. Ad nauseum.

I have tried my best to find new ways to express the same basic ideas because you keep asking the same questions and we keep going over the same points. I find that frustrating because it feels like circular reasoning. You ask a question. I give my answer. I'm simply stating my thoughts on the matter. I'm not trying to convince you one way or another. I can only speak for myself. You don't like my answer so you ask it again, perhaps hoping that I will change my mind?

You often have great insight into the lore and background on the making of the films and I am impressed with your breadth of knowledge. I truly am. I welcome the diversity of your opinions, even if I don't feel you present your case as clearly as you could. What you don't get to do is subtly dictate to me or anyone else how to feel or think which you have a tendency to do, whether you are conscious of it or not, and it puts people off. No one has that right. It's better to present your case and let the reader decide for themselves. If you've articulated your thoughts well, the points you raise will stand on their own merit without the need to convince people because the ideas will be compelling in and of themselves.

I don't mean for any of this to come across as cruel but simply trying to help you understand why I get frustrated with you. I really like you. You may not believe that, but I truly do and you have certainly helped me become better at expressing my ideas by challenging the way I think and for that I thank you. I just feel that there are times when you have to let certain things go and just move on. I certainly would be happy to let some of these things go.

At the end of the day you see it one way. I see it another. Can we both just be adults and agree to disagree? Like a few have said before, fandom is a buffet. Take what you like out of Star Wars and leave the rest.
 
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I don't doubt the skills and talents involved completely. I simply question their choices. There is nothing arrogant about that. Again, having a contrasting opinion doesn't negate it entirely. I fail to see how having insight into the storytelling process is only valid if you work in the industry. If that were true then discussions like this couldn't exist. It would also invalidate your position too if that statement were true.

But how many of us, myself included, have insight? Some real knowledge on how this stuff all works?

Let me see if I can create an anology.

Let's say you've decided to go to restaurant which has a semi-famous gourmet chef working there. And let's say that this gourmet chef does the specials of the day. Let's also say that you yourself are rather fond of cooking. You've got several cook books, you learn some stuff on the Internet. So let's say that you order the daily special at this restaurant. You quickly find out that you dislike this dish. So you proceed to ask to the chef. And you begin telling how he could have cooked this said dish better. And criticizing his work. But then someone at another table asks you, 'excuse me sir', he says. 'But have you actually gone to school for several years just to learn how to cook? Have you spent several years of your life just trying to reach the position that this man is?' Well naturally the answer is no. How can you objectively and accurately critique? You haven't had any schooling in this subject.

I see this with many fans. The Internet has allowed everyone to be a critic. Even though their knowledge is next to nothing. Now as I write this I know there are some who work in the industry. Or maybe they have taken some writing courses. And they would be able to offer a more objective critique. If that's the case with anyone, I'll take nice big slice of humble pie please. As I'm just an arm chair critic. Like 90% of Star Wars fans on the internet.


Sorry of the late reply.....busy weekend.
 
Except your analogy assumes that I have direct interaction with the directors of these movie which I don't.

I simply don't care for the movies, so I have decided to stop watching them. My opinion is just that. An opinion. I am entitled to it whether you like it or not. I'm just choosing to vote with my wallet on this one. You seem to think that any opinion can be completely objective which it can't. This is true of all opinions, even your's.

Plus I have never claimed that these film makers are completely inept. I just don't care for a lot of their choices. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

Why is it that you now feel the need to have people provide credentials to have an opinion on something? Especially something as subjective as art? It defies the entire purpose of discussion because, yet again, you are predicating it on a false assumption that one has to be an expert in their field in order to have any meaningful insight into the subject.

Am I an expert? By no means. Nor have I ever claimed to be. It still doesn't negate my thoughts or your's. So what is it that you seek to accomplish by pointing out our lack of expertise? That we both know nothing at all? That we should blindly accept anything they give us at face value in total devotion to our entertainment overlords because we are nothing more than stupid audience members who didn't go to film school? Your premise highly suggests this.

Or are you simply arguing points and stringing them out to the point where all you are doing is basically asking why over and over so that we can deconstruct reason itself and get into a shouting match?
 
Except your analogy assumes that I have direct interaction with the directors of these movie which I don't.

I simply don't care for the movies, so I have decided to stop watching them. My opinion is just that. An opinion. I am entitled to it whether you like it or not. I'm just choosing to vote with my wallet on this one. You seem to think that any opinion can be completely objective which it can't. This is true of all opinions, even your's.

Plus I have never claimed that these film makers are completely inept. I just don't care for a lot of their choices. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

Why is it that you now feel the need to have people provide credentials to have an opinion on something? Especially something as subjective as art? It defies the entire purpose of discussion because, yet again, you are predicating it on a false assumption that one has to be an expert in their field in order to have any meaningful insight into the subject.

Am I an expert? By no means. Nor have I ever claimed to be. It still doesn't negate my thoughts or your's. So what is it that you seek to accomplish by pointing out our lack of expertise? That we both know nothing at all? That we should blindly accept anything they give us at face value in total devotion to our entertainment overlords because we are nothing more than stupid audience members who didn't go to film school? Your premise highly suggests this.

Or are you simply arguing points and stringing them out to the point where all you are doing is basically asking why over and over so that we can deconstruct reason itself and get into a shouting match?

Of course your entitled to your opinion. I didn't say you weren't. And if I came across that way sincerely apologize.

I'm just trying to point out that for some, not you, but some. Some I've encountered on the interwebs act so arrogant, and like they know so much better. And they state their opinion as a fact. And not opinion.

I honestly don't know why you and I are carrying on like this. I'm not aiming this stuff at you. Heck I agree with you on most of it lol.


Oh a quick fun story for you. So I decided to dip toes into reddit. In the saltierthancrait subreddit. I was banned in under 4 hours, even though I didn't break any of their rules. They just couldn't take someone sharing the opposite view.

Anywho......we seem to going nowhere fast....so next topic! :p
 
Again this is part of the problem with message boards because multiple people are talking, often it's difficult to determine whether one is being addressed directly or if we are talking in generalities, or if we are discussing someone not even involved in the debate.

I want to find common ground with you. I sincerely do. Which is why I tried phrasing my comments with a touch of humor and aligning us together as seeking the same goal. We each just have a differing approach. I can live with that.

I just don't want it to be like Louis CK's bit about when his daughter continuing to ask "Why?" as children are want to do. I won't post it here to keep from further derailing the thread but I think the idea still applies. :lol:

One further aside you may find humorous or not. I tend to type my responses but often find when I do, I choose certain words but typically have to reference their definitions so as to make sure I'm using them in the correct context and with the correct definition.

All this effort over Star Wars. What can I say? I'm a hack FRAUD!!!!!! :D
 
Again this is part of the problem with message boards because multiple people are talking, often it's difficult to determine whether one is being addressed directly or if we are talking in generalities, or if we are discussing someone not even involved in the debate.

I want to find common ground with you. I sincerely do. Which is why I tried phrasing my comments with a touch of humor and aligning us together as seeking the same goal. We each just have a differing approach. I can live with that.

I just don't want it to be like Louis CK's bit about when his daughter continuing to ask "Why?" as children are want to do. I won't post it here to keep from further derailing the thread but I think the idea still applies. :lol:

One further aside you may find humorous or not. I tend to type my responses but often find when I do, I choose certain words but typically have to reference their definitions so as to make sure I'm using them in the correct context and with the correct definition.

All this effort over Star Wars. What can I say? I'm a hack FRAUD!!!!!! :D

What really funny is we disagree about Star Wars. But Star Trek. I think you and I see pretty much eye to eye on.


Tell me about it! I use Webster's Dictionary talking about Star Wars more then I did when I was in school! Or at least it feels like it! :lol:
 
This is the thing that has been great about my fandom over the last decade or so now. Even if I despise the direction it's all taken, at the least my writing has improved as a result so in a sense I'm trying to make lemonade from the lemons I feel we've been given.
 
Takes me right back to one of my scriptwriting professors' advice. He was telling us about an experience where something in a film kicked him out of it because it broke the narrative, and he realized he'd missed the last thirty seconds of movie he was so stuck on that point. He said the best way to learn the craft is to see what others have done, good and bad. He told us to watch as much as we could, across the board. But -- "There's a lot of **** out there. If you ever notice something like that, where you get kicked out of the experience, don't just sit there bitching about it -- get a copy of the script and see if you can do better".

The three big fandoms of my youth are Star Wars, Transformers, and Star Trek. I love and have internalized all three to an extent I acknowledge may be just slightly unhealthy. I also have the soul of an engineer -- I need to deconstruct and understand stuff, and then do something with that knowledge. It wasn't enough for me to just like some stories when I was growing up, while not liking others. I had to dig into the why of it. So I like to think I've learned how good stories are crafted, how good characters are shaped, how good dialogue is written, and after some cringe-worthy early attempts when I was about twelve or thirteen, like to think I've gotten pretty good at creating same. And I've bent that to those three deepest loves... especially as I've seen those in charge of those intellectual properties so consistently not getting them over the last twenty years or so.

When I say it could be done better, I'm not just Monday-morning quarterbacking, I'm doing my damndest to put my money where my mouth is and see if I can in fact make better creative choices, rather than just make un-thought-through strawman pronouncements like some I've seen on the internet.
 
Let's say you've decided to go to restaurant which has a semi-famous gourmet chef working there. And let's say that this gourmet chef does the specials of the day. Let's also say that you yourself are rather fond of cooking. You've got several cook books, you learn some stuff on the Internet. So let's say that you order the daily special at this restaurant. You quickly find out that you dislike this dish. So you proceed to ask to the chef. And you begin telling how he could have cooked this said dish better. And criticizing his work. But then someone at another table asks you, 'excuse me sir', he says. 'But have you actually gone to school for several years just to learn how to cook? Have you spent several years of your life just trying to reach the position that this man is?' Well naturally the answer is no. How can you objectively and accurately critique? You haven't had any schooling in this subject.
Great analogy, I myself use cooking as the analogy quite often as well, except your logical conclusion is flawed.
First, you can finish courses and schools and have qualifications and say “f it, I’ll make something new up, break the rules and come up with something really original”. It’s damn hard to do that. Picasso apparently said something along the lines that “you need to master the rules in order to know how to break them”. He could draw super-realistic but he is famous for his surreal, cubist, stylized work. Very very few people can pull it off and do something great. Creating a cheesecake with marmite, strawberry jam and smoked salmon is bold, subverts expectations but doubt it’ll go down as a triumph.
Second, everybody makes mistakes. EVERYBODY. John Carpenter is one of my favourite directors, he wrote, directed and scored fantastic movies with highly original content and fantastic filmmaking quality. Ghosts of Mars was something out of Syfy channel’s worst or something made by Uwe Boll. Just because he has great talent, eye and track record does not mean he cannot make duds.
Third, Tommy Wiseau, Uwe Boll, Neil Breen have all more experience in making a movie than I do. Am I barred then from calling their work what it is? Sub-par and low quality? I can’t make a car, I don’t have a factory, assembly line, engineering degree. Does that mean that every car maker makes impeccable cars because they have the staff, personnel and resources? There are objective markers as to the quality of a car within its class, and you can absolutely quantify it. Same goes for movies. Are there cars that have practically zero boot space, terrible mpg, needs constant working, prone to rusting and there’s a chance you need to rebuild the engine before it hots 100k miles but I still would buy it because it gives me that buzz? Of course. I actually own one like that.

Setting aside Star Wars, I think it’s important to understand how movies work if you’re into them. I just used to go and say “didn’t like it” or “it was crap” solely based on my feelings and initial reactions. Once I started viewing them from technical aspects as well it was like a revelation.
I think you should try and drop the holy cows mentality. Nothing and nobody is infallible. You don’t need to be a DP to have the confidence to say “I actually know how a scene like that could have been shot better”. I wholeheartedly recommend Half in the Bag as a series (you can skip their Star Wars stuff, just focus on other movies), their discussion about movies is great, informative and relaxed, it’s technical without being surgical and boring. I honestly learned a lot from those guys.
 
I second that wholeheartedly and they are also filmmakers themselves having actual schooling and backgrounds in film so they are not just armchair critics. They often mock their own work as filmmakers too. The honesty with which they approach things is a huge part of why they are so accessible as critics and are a breath of fresh air compared to some of the elite snobs in the industry. I've learned a great deal from them and they have a great sense of humor to boot.
 
Except they are using tactics from WW2 in the other films. The fact that even the light bombers still have to line up for a torpedo run, is so WW2. Just look how close the X-wings and Y-wings get before releasing their payloads in Rogue One. And the dogfights, so WW2. The TIE attack on the Falcon, so WW2.

Modern military aircraft use rockets as their primary weapon. Going in guns a-blazin' is what happens only when they've exhausted all their stores of missiles. Not to mention most simulations of modern war have fighters shooting at each other at beyond visual range, with either medium-range or long-range radar-guided missiles. Some of those long-range missiles have a range of 100+ miles. If they wanted to show the Star Wars universe being modern then all the starfighters should carry air-to-air style missiles.(Think Colonial Vipers from BSG) And instead of bombers, they should just launch big cruise missile-like weapons from the cruisers and destroyers.
Well yeah I agree. My analogy wasn't meant to suggest that Star Wars should emulate modern warfare to a T because like you said then you'd have spacecraft firing at each other from a thousand miles away and that wouldn't be very exciting to watch although Star Trek does it well. But I could see dogfighting still being necessary in the futuristic setting of Star Wars because light fighters appear to be faster (edit: I should say more importantly they're more maneuverable} than projectiles so lining up behind them and hitting them with cannon fire is your only option.

I think if they had just simply replaced the SF17s with Y-wings, it would've worked better but they wanted that scene of the sister releasing the bombs. Anyway it looks like we've exhausted the topic lol. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.
 
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