Lets talk all things Star Wars

[Ron]

Marcia just stating facts even though she is one of the experts on Star Wars and what makes it great. Incredible talent and it sucks that she left the industry.

On a funnier note, Robot Chicken has been killing it with their star wars parodies.

Right. That's why it's such a big deal. She's not someone whose criticisms can be brushed off easily (although it won't stop some them from trying). She is arguably one of the top authorities on Star Wars after George. Actually, I'd wager a likewise admonishment from George would have less impact since he has his own shortcomings with the prequels hanging over him.

 

[Treadwell]

I know the early rotoscoping for the lightsabers in the first Star Wars was handled by an artist outside ILM but that was also at the beginning, and I thought after that point the effects were handled internally. It's just curiosity on my part because I'm not in the industry.

There are several outside companies credited for animation in the original SW, including Depatie-Freleng, which did the Pink Panther cartoons.
Probably traveling mattes, rotoscoping, lasers, other drudge work.

 

[Psab keel]

Good to know. I wasn't aware of that. I thought it was all handled by ILM and their various departments.

 

[HeartBlade]

Right. That's why it's such a big deal. She's not someone whose criticisms can be brushed off easily (although it won't stop some them from trying). She is arguably one of the top authorities on Star Wars after George. Actually, I'd wager a likewise admonishment from George would have less impact since he has his own shortcomings with the prequels hanging over him.

Yeah Marcia Lucas is quite amazing. Not only did she “save” star wars with her editing, she also “saved” taxi driver and made it to the classic psychological thriller it is.

 

[Treadwell]

Marcia Lucas deserves recognition for her editing work on SW, but so do the other two editors, Paul Hirsch and Richard Chew. They "saved" it, too.

 

[Psab keel]

What makes Marcia's views so interesting is that she's been out of the industry for decades and the chances of her having any bias to protect her career are zip. She can speak honestly because she has nothing to prove other than expressing her true feelings so there's no risk or incentive to do so. That's why this story has made an impact and why her opinions carry more weight than so many of her contemporaries, a great number of whom still work in the industry.

 

[Ron]

One only has to do a simple search online to watch dozens of video essays about how Star Wars was "saved in the edit" but I don't want to short change George here who sometimes gets side stepped unfairly I believe. Certainly Marcia, Paul, and Richard were instrumental, even crucial, but George was a fine editor in his own right. The pendulum of opinion on Lucas has swung from "Mastermind of it all" to "He was surrounded by brilliant filmmakers who kept him in check". The truth is of course somewhere in the middle. In the case of editing Star Wars, I'm sure George had more input then we've been led to believe. It was still his baby at the end of the day after all.

Just watch the editing work in THX-1138, which as I understand George edited alone, to see how great he is.

 

[Psab keel]

Marcia does take pride in her work but she also acknowledges how the vision was all George. The names, the concepts, the themes, the plot, the characters, and all that stuff was from his mind. She and the others in production just helped him hone his vision. I think what's clear is that the effort was certainly more collaborative back in the early days where people weren't afraid to question certain ideas and the films worked better as a result. I think George in his later work was collaborative but to a lesser degree and no one felt comfortable to question him considering he was financing the Prequels himself. Who would be willing to contest his ideas without feeling indimidated? Whether that was intentional or not doesn't even matter but I think the work suffered for it.

I too think the truth of all this lies somewhere in the middle as Ron said. It's not a hard line answer where we know all the entire story because we weren't there, but given the evidence I would give Marcia's comments a lot of credence given she literally has nothing to gain or lose whatsoever.

The other thing I think is important to consider is that because she's been out of the limelight for so long, she seems to have better perspective rather than idealizing the past, she just calls it as she sees it. These films have been analyzed to death and the historic revisionism surrounding them given differing perspectives on the matter from the cast and crew will change over time. Their feelings change and likely their memories could very well have been altered to fit their own ideas rather than be accurate recollections? That's just a theory but it could affect what the public knows about the series. Add indecisiveness on George's part into the equation, and it really makes Marcia's comments feel refreshing because she has no stakes to lie about any of it. Everyone is too close to the matter to be totally unbiased and Marcie is the closest any of us could hope for out of the people that would have any sort of clout in the discussion.

 

[ghostryder]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1440353850620186625

 

[CessnaDriver]

The Force is with Marcia!

Put her in charge!

 

[blewis17]

I have absolutely no knowledge on the subject but, based on that story, it sounds like Lucasfilm, without George, isn't as militant about in-house work and even they max out their capacity sometimes.

My brother has degrees in both sound design and computer animation and has taught in LA and Orlando. For example, he said that with Iron Man film(s), some of the CG of the suit was done through subcontracted animation studios. Weird thing is... he says the companies weren't really given reference models to use (not sure how that is possible; I assume they are given a standard CG suit reference, but maybe just a practical model?). With big budget tentpole films and thousands of digital effects to incorporate on a tight timescale, you just don't have the people-power to do it all in house.

P.S. Funny story... years ago my brother was working on one of the newer piranha CG films. They had already done some of the digital effects work, when the production company fired them and went with another company. He had a hard drive with their work, now useless(?)

P.S.S. Funny story number 2: I was in Anaheim, CA at Disneyland in 2003, standing in line for the Haunted Mansion (I think). Two housewives were having a discussion next to me. The one says she was waiting for her husband to catch up with the family later in the day because he was tied up working on Ang Lee's HULK movie that morning.

 

[MattWinchell]

I duly respect Marcia's opinion on the new films. I just hope people don't spit out this crappy rhetoric that the new films are "factually bad," by using her opinion as ammo. I've enjoyed 1.5/3 of the sequel films, but I won't let her opinion on the films influence my own. Otherwise, everything you guys have been saying around her being outside of the limelight and that her opinion has a lack of bias is completely valid. MTFBWY

 

[Psab keel]

I respect that position. What gives Marcia's insight so much credibility is that she has nothing to gain or lose, which by definition automatically gives her thoughts more weight than her peers. From my perspective it's refreshing to see her comments given the accusations that have been lobbed at fans who dislike these movies and there is a certain amount of vindication that she feels the same way I do. It would have been nice if her contemporaries could have shown the same class she did by leaving the fans out of the discussion entirely and focusing on the story alone, but here we are. I hope this puts an end to the "debate" so to speak because at the very least now those of us who have been dissatified with the current state of this franchise have some validation from someone at the top whose credentials haven't been compromised by any bias to satisfy the status quo.

 

[MattWinchell]

I respect that position. What gives Marcia's insight so much credibility is that she has nothing to gain or lose, which by definition automatically gives her thoughts more weight than her peers. From my perspective it's refreshing to see her comments given the accusations that have been lobbed at fans who dislike these movies and there is a certain amount of vindication that she feels the same way I do. It would have been nice if her contemporaries could have shown the same class she did by leaving the fans out of the discussion entirely and focusing on the story alone, but here we are. I hope this puts an end to the "debate" so to speak because at the very least now those of us who have been dissatified with the current state of this franchise have some validation from someone at the top whose credentials haven't been compromised by any bias to satisfy the status quo.

Well said. I think there has been a misconception surrounding this "debate." Particularly, those who really enjoy the films have been lobbed with those who accuse the people dissatisfied with them, and those who really hate them are associated with people with valid concerns and disappointment. Really, this whole "debate" has been between these extreme sides, while a lot of us in the middle have been associated with them.

Marcia's comments are so potent because, as you said, they are unaffiliated with the extreme, gatekeeping section, nor disrespect those who enjoy them. The crux of this "debate" is distinguishing between those who are respectful of each other, regardless of opinion, in comparison to the extreme sides who constantly accuse each other while trying to involve those in the middle.

 

[Psab keel]

I wholeheartedly agree with you and that's very insightful to note how both extremes have tried to disrupt the middle, which is where we should strive to be ultimately. Even if we don't see eye to eye we should aim for the middle where we can.

I think Marcia's approach was extremely classy. She never resorted to addressing fans or their reactions. She didn't have to throw her credentials in anyone's face. She didn't side step the issue or try to censor her thoughts to appease anyone's sensitivities. She explained how she felt and though her opinions are strong, she kept the focus on the content of the films and that's it. Finding that kind of balance in a heated discussion is a gift. One that says a lot about a person's character. I have a mountain of respect for her because of that. To have that kind of restraint when she was part of the inception of this story is remarkable.

Something else really struck me too since this came to light. It's clear how emotionally invested we as fans are in this story after dedicating so much of our lives trying to catch a glimpse into this world, but consider for a moment how she must feel. She was there from the beginning. She was married to George and literally helped him achieve his dream of taking this vague idea in his mind and making that concept a reality. That's not to discount the thousands of cast, crew, and production that enabled this to come to fruition, but she was there while he was writing this thing down and was there right by his side as he honed it and she helped him in a very intimate way. Stories are very personal and I know when writing my book it took a lot out of me emotionally and intellectually. She was there watching him do this day in and day out and when you're married to someone you see a whole different side of them that no one else sees.

Compound that idea with the fact that she helped him not only craft the story but edit it to ensure that George was focused in the right place, I think more than just about anyone else involved in the making of those original films. Then consider the impact the success of these movies had on her life and George's, as people, not just in terms of their careers. Imagine having the movie be an overnight success, creating new industries that would forever change the artform of film and the business of film. All the while they were trying to navigate the realities of maintaining a marriage and by Return of the Jedi trying to start a family. As I said stories are personal and when you write something that you pour your heart into it has an emotional toll, whether for good or ill. Especially given the impact Star Wars had on the world I think this toll was more costly than just one author's personal feelings on their work.

When you create something and release it into the world you're automatically opening yourself up to criticism and you risk being vulnerable to everyone. In this case that vulnerability paid off so well that it literally changed the world. I think the story of how it was made is an epic in and of itself just as much as the fictional story they told.

I think there's a huge distinction between the criticisms against the creator of a story for their creative choices and the stewards who are tasked with continuing that story after the original author lets go of it. Especially if the original author has personally entrusted specific people to carry on their legacy. George may have his faults but he is the original author so I think many fans are willing to be more forgiving of his choices, even if they were bad, versus his protégé who makes equally bad choices because those could be seen as a betrayal of the promise to protect the story.

 

[MattWinchell]

I wholeheartedly agree with you and that's very insightful to note how both extremes have tried to disrupt the middle, which is where we should strive to be ultimately. Even if we don't see eye to eye we should aim for the middle where we can.

I think Marcia's approach was extremely classy. She never resorted to addressing fans or their reactions. She didn't have to throw her credentials in anyone's face. She didn't side step the issue or try to censor her thoughts to appease anyone's sensitivities. She explained how she felt and though her opinions are strong, she kept the focus on the content of the films and that's it. Finding that kind of balance in a heated discussion is a gift. One that says a lot about a person's character. I have a mountain of respect for her because of that. To have that kind of restraint when she was part of the inception of this story is remarkable.

Something else really struck me too since this came to light. It's clear how emotionally invested we as fans are in this story after dedicating so much of our lives trying to catch a glimpse into this world, but consider for a moment how she must feel. She was there from the beginning. She was married to George and literally helped him achieve his dream of taking this vague idea in his mind and making that concept a reality. That's not to discount the thousands of cast, crew, and production that enabled this to come to fruition, but she was there while he was writing this thing down and was there right by his side as he honed it and she helped him in a very intimate way. Stories are very personal and I know when writing my book it took a lot out of me emotionally and intellectually. She was there watching him do this day in and day out and when you're married to someone you see a whole different side of them that no one else sees.

Compound that idea with the fact that she helped him not only craft the story but edit it to ensure that George was focused in the right place, I think more than just about anyone else involved in the making of those original films. Then consider the impact the success of these movies had on her life and George's, as people, not just in terms of their careers. Imagine having the movie be an overnight success, creating new industries that would forever change the artform of film and the business of film. All the while they were trying to navigate the realities of maintaining a marriage and by Return of the Jedi trying to start a family. As I said stories are personal and when you write something that you pour your heart into it has an emotional toll, whether for good or ill. Especially given the impact Star Wars had on the world I think this toll was more costly than just one author's personal feelings on their work.

When you create something and release it into the world you're automatically opening yourself up to criticism and you risk being vulnerable to everyone. In this case that vulnerability paid off so well that it literally changed the world. I think the story of how it was made is an epic in and of itself just as much as the fictional story they told.

Agreed. This franchise is so important to each one of us, and getting to hear the opinions of those who started it is incredibly interesting. George, her, and everyone involved with the OT had put much care and love into the films, but we must remind ourselves that even those of the recent films did the same.

I love The Last Jedi for example, and I see many disingenuous comments claiming Rian, the producers, and the production team didn't pour their heart and soul into the film. That's far from the truth, and these extreme groups feel that their dissatisfaction with the new films somehow proves that the directors, producers, and such didn't put the effort in. They did, it's just that people simply didn't like it.

I think the creation of each trilogy is so unique, especially with the inception of the franchise itself. With the founding of ILM, filmmaking has evolved so much. Motion-control miniatures & special effects, to CGI and now the Volume. We keep witnessing a renaissance of filmmaking every couple of decades, all thanks to the creation of ILM.

But it is imperative as fans that we respect and appreciate the work that went into the new films. Regardless of what you think of them, Kathy, Rian, JJ, Gareth, Dave, John, Ron, and the crew put all of their love into these projects. In order to have conservations like this, both sides need to understand that. If one side doesn't, then they need to grow up.

We're on the same wavelength haha!

 

[ghostryder]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1441164721801949191

 

[Jagjaguwar]

Yes, I don’t think this will be the end to any debate, personally (if it can be called a debate at this point, because one side seems to have moved on entirely to other things, but we’ll put that aside for a moment). I think people are still feeling aggrieved by the sequels, for a number of reasons (some of which I agree with, to varying degrees), and I think people are going to continue to struggle with that, until they either get some new Star Wars they like better, or they move on themselves.

I’ve always been of the belief that everyone should like what they like, no one needs to explain or justify themselves one way or the other unless they want to, and that drawing conclusions about *why* people like things or don’t is generally a terrible idea.

It’s also worth considering how in this time we live in, it feels more essential to have a public “stance” on everything. Not enough to just watch and enjoy, or just discuss casually. It’s this extended debate on everything, and it’s exhausting. I remember long back and forth debates and arguments about stupid little things in The Last Jedi that I was part of, and I just think back on it and laugh. One or two of the members here I would say I had a slightly antagonistic rapport with, hahah. The last couple years have made it plain to see how silly that all was, especially when this is all supposed to about enjoying and celebrating what we enjoy.

 

[Psab keel]

Agreed. This franchise is so important to each one of us, and getting to hear the opinions of those who started it is incredibly interesting. George, her, and everyone involved with the OT had put much care and love into the films, but we must remind ourselves that even those of the recent films did the same.

I love The Last Jedi for example, and I see many disingenuous comments claiming Rian, the producers, and the production team didn't pour their heart and soul into the film. That's far from the truth, and these extreme groups feel that their dissatisfaction with the new films somehow proves that the directors, producers, and such didn't put the effort in. They did, it's just that people simply didn't like it.

I think the creation of each trilogy is so unique, especially with the inception of the franchise itself. With the founding of ILM, filmmaking has evolved so much. Motion-control miniatures & special effects, to CGI and now the Volume. We keep witnessing a renaissance of filmmaking every couple of decades, all thanks to the creation of ILM.

But it is imperative as fans that we respect and appreciate the work that went into the new films. Regardless of what you think of them, Kathy, Rian, JJ, Gareth, Dave, John, Ron, and the crew put all of their love into these projects. In order to have conservations like this, both sides need to understand that. If one side doesn't, then they need to grow up.

We're on the same wavelength haha!

I don't doubt their passion or hard work. I just don't agree with the choices they made.

Yes, I don’t think this will be the end to any debate, personally (if it can be called a debate at this point, because one side seems to have moved on entirely to other things, but we’ll put that aside for a moment). I think people are still feeling aggrieved by the sequels, for a number of reasons (some of which I agree with, to varying degrees), and I think people are going to continue to struggle with that, until they either get some new Star Wars they like better, or they move on themselves.

I’ve always been of the belief that everyone should like what they like, no one needs to explain or justify themselves one way or the other unless they want to, and that drawing conclusions about *why* people like things or don’t is generally a terrible idea.

It’s also worth considering how in this time we live in, it feels more essential to have a public “stance” on everything. Not enough to just watch and enjoy, or just discuss casually. It’s this extended debate on everything, and it’s exhausting. I remember long back and forth debates and arguments about stupid little things in The Last Jedi that I was part of, and I just think back on it and laugh. One or two of the members here I would say I had a slightly antagonistic rapport with, hahah. The last couple years have made it plain to see how silly that all was, especially when this is all supposed to about enjoying and celebrating what we enjoy.

No one cares what a nobody like me thinks about any movie. I just find the discussion interesting, at least I did for a while.

 

[MattWinchell]

I don't doubt their passion or hard work. I just don't agree with the choices they made.



No one cares what a nobody like me thinks about any movie. I just find the discussion interesting, at least I did for a while.

I know! I made it clear in my previous message that you didn't have to like it. I was generally speaking about the more extreme sides.