ILM X-Wing Models: Timeline & Status
- Thread starter PHArchivist
- Start date
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Sr Member
That's definitely the hero Blue 1/Red 2 model, Guy. Awesome shot - and even cooler to consider that it's a polaroid, and, assuming it's genuine, would've been on hand during production.
I'm definitely interested in the larger file. Thanks for sharing this unique artifact!
I'm definitely interested in the larger file. Thanks for sharing this unique artifact!
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Sr Member
Thoughts?
Have any better pictures, especially of the cockpit framing and/or R2 strip area? From those pics, it looks very much like one of the Planet Hollywood pyro build-ups. But without better pics, it's hard to see the tells.
darth_myeek
Sr Member
That polaroid is in awesome shape for it's age.
If Guy's pic is b&w, then it reminds me of b&w polaroid film I've used before which required a coating after development to "fix" the image. Some of my personal tests from the early 90's have almost faded away. Looks like the right side of Guy's shot may have not been coated as much as the left side.
I'd love a copy too, if possible.
-DM
PHArchivist
Master Member
Which could rationalize the ILM crating since I'm lead to understand ILM built the copies for Planet Hollywood (not unlike Stan Winston Studio building all the T-800 copies for each restaurant).
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Sr Member
Oops, should've read the thread more carefully, Mike already answered that one:
That's what I get for posting from work...
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Sr Member
This is very interesting. In several 70's vintage interviews, Grant McCune has said that five hero models were built. One of the stories I'd heard was that one was stolen after production. If one of them was stolen during production, that explains why we only ever see Reds 1, 2, 3 and 5 on film, in addition the pyros that were used for some of the side shots and explosions.
Was Red 6 the other hero model? I can't remember if we decided if that was a pyro or not from that shot of it getting its stripes. I need to check that pic again.
Or perhaps it was Red 4 that was stolen. We know there are pics of a pyro model painted up in full-on, hero-style, Red 4 livery. Perhaps that was built to replace the stolen hero.
What strikes me as beyond bizarre is that somebody at ILM would paint over one of the stripes on each wing of the original Red 5 hero miniature. Why?
AT-AT Luvah
Sr Member
Miniaturizer Ray, in everything I've read about John Knoll and all the times I've heard him lecture/speak in person, it is evident that he is somebody who recognizes the historical value of the assets he comes across. He does not strike me as somebody who would have actively disassembled such a historic piece to pull together CG texture maps.
In his book, Star Wars 365 Days, he mentions repeatedly how he tries to strike a balance between speed, cost effectiveness, and most bang for the buck in his shots. There is also a dedicated section on the Special Edition work he did. Nowhere does he mention disassembling any models for texture mapping. He does mention that some assets were sourced from other ILMers who had been working on CG models as pet projects.
Hector
In his book, Star Wars 365 Days, he mentions repeatedly how he tries to strike a balance between speed, cost effectiveness, and most bang for the buck in his shots. There is also a dedicated section on the Special Edition work he did. Nowhere does he mention disassembling any models for texture mapping. He does mention that some assets were sourced from other ILMers who had been working on CG models as pet projects.
Hector
PHArchivist
Master Member
Recall, no one knew what a run-away hit Star Wars would be, and as we all know, care for the props was lacking to say the least (Death Star - case in point).
Is it possible the fifth stripe was painted over during production of the first film (prior to a full understanding of just how iconic Red 5 would be)?
artoo77
Well-Known Member
Miniaturizer Ray
Well-Known Member
I didn't mean to suggest that he'd trashed the model. At least some of the models have clearly been disassembled in the past - As referred to earlier, there is writing on Red 2 - "Bot L", "Top R", "FLOAT", etc, suggesting that the parts were marked for re-assembly (who needed these identifying marks? It's pretty obvious which bit goes where :confused) and the extra Panther part added to Red 5 is clearly not on the model in STAR WARS during shots that show it with its wings closed, suggesting that might be some sort of patch that was applied when they worked on the reportedly temperamental wing mechanism. Knoll could have disassembled the model (or had it disassembled for him) carefully.
Overall, the fate of Red 5 has always been a puzzle. As beaz has said, it would not be an enormous stretch to call this model one of the great cinema icons, and we have photographic evidence that the model was intact (albeit with a slightly modified paint scheme) when production on RETURN OF THE JEDI ended.
We might imagine all sorts of fanciful explanations, but it's extremely hard to come up with any story that fits those elements that we do know to be fact.
I've scrutinized RETURN OF THE JEDI looking for shots that show the model with four stripes, and found none.
There's a story that when they wanted a Y-wing for JEDI, they wanted to use the model that had been given to Alan Ladd Jr to display in his office, but couldn't get hold of it, so used a model that Bill George had built as a fan, prior to his employment at ILM. Whether this story is true or not, I cannot say, but at the time that the Lucasfilm Archives were established, the Star Wars movies were the property of 20th Century Fox. Fox financed the effects photography for STAR WARS, so it doesn't seem implausible that Red 5 was, technically, Fox's property. What if there was some Fox exec, or maybe one of his children even, who wanted "Luke's X-wing" once they'd finished using it to make the movies? Or alternatively, the Lucasfilm people were probably aware of the financial difficulties at Fox that ultimately led, a couple of years later, to Lucasfilm reacquiring ownership of the Star Wars movies, and may have been worried about how Fox would dispose of a valuable asset like Luke's ship (to some wealthy oil sheik, perhaps?).
Or alternatively, maybe the model was just trashed in some accident, that people are either slightly embarassed about, or just plain don't remember.
We don't know, but we keep looking for pieces of the puzzle.
Classy job, Don, but in this case, I got both of the stories - that John Knoll personally took all of the photographs that he used to make the CGI textures, and that the "corpse on a stick" model was already like that back in 1987, from your posts. So what are you saying?
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artoo77
Well-Known Member
Did you read the posts prior to my comment? I said that neither story is true--the Falcon's electronics were not gutted, nor did John Knoll (or anyone) disassemble a model for reference....I know, I was present when he photographed them.
--Don
Miniaturizer Ray
Well-Known Member
Don, I got no beef with you, at present, and I concede that I may have mis-interpreted the precise meaning of your reference, but not the meaning of ":rolleyes". I edited my post to make it plain that Knoll disassembling the models had been my pet theory, and your post contradicts it.
I pointed out that if what you say about Knoll making all of his own texture photographs is true, then the fuselage still existed, in good shape, well after 1987. The important issue is - where is it now?
PHArchivist
Master Member
Just to clear something up (at least in my opinion)...
Outside of industry professionals and fan-boy circles, an X-Wing is and X-Wing is an X-Wing. Ask your mother to identfiy Red 5 Versus Red 2.
The Death Star? THAT made it's way into comic strips (Bloom County for one), has been used as a tongue-in-cheek nod by NASA to a Saturn moon (IIRC), and by far has permeated popular culture far more than the X-Wing (ANY X-Wing) has...
Outside of industry professionals and fan-boy circles, an X-Wing is and X-Wing is an X-Wing. Ask your mother to identfiy Red 5 Versus Red 2.
The Death Star? THAT made it's way into comic strips (Bloom County for one), has been used as a tongue-in-cheek nod by NASA to a Saturn moon (IIRC), and by far has permeated popular culture far more than the X-Wing (ANY X-Wing) has...
Miniaturizer Ray
Well-Known Member
Not sure how tongue-in-cheek you're being, but in any case, you're right. In STAR WARS, the X-wing models are used interchangeably to represent the various pilots' ships, and most people wouldn't even notice. But later, through the comics and other media, it became fairly well established that Luke's X-wing was the one with five stripes. Your argument is precisely the line of reasoning that led me to fancifully postulate that, if you didn't want somebody to lay claim to the model, you could disguise it just by painting out one of the wing stripes.
