ILM X-Wing Models: Timeline & Status

[PHArchivist]

Bold added:

There was an X-wing model stolen from ILM during the production of ANH. It was always suspected to be an inside job, but it never showed up despite all sorts of pleas and threats from management. I had initially thought that it was Red 5, but was later told that it was just an X-wing. The reason it was a big deal at the time was that it was one of the MOCO miniatures (not a pyro), and they couldn't be quickly replaced.

Gene

I don't think that's the same Red 5 inasmuch as there's no evidence of modification to the lower engines for landing gear stuff... but...

Makes sense, since it appears intact and in relatively decent shape in the shot I posted above which contains Jedi props as well.

 

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I don't think that's the same Red 5 inasmuch as there's no evidence of modification to the lower engines for landing gear stuff... but...

My guess is that Red 3 was used as a stand in for Red 5 in ESB, at least for the scenes where it has landing gear. The Red 3 model has clear signs that holes were cut out of the lower forward fuselage and main engine cans, and were later patched up with some crude panels that are painted differently from the original model.

 

[-... . .- --..]

Red 2 was in San Francisco for the Art of Star Wars exhibition in 1995, I believe. And I'm fairly certain Red 3 was there too.

Where else Red 2 has been, I personally don't know, but am pretty sure its seen a few other museums.

Red 3 on the other hand doesn't seem to have seen as much daylight.

I know Red 3 has been to at least one of the "Celebration" events, and while there are really good pics of Red 2 on exhibit, I have yet to see any that are less than 10 years old.

So, we know Red 3 is in the archives, but where oh where is Red 2 these days?

 

[ralphee]

My guess is that Red 3 was used as a stand in for Red 5 in ESB, at least for the scenes where it has landing gear. The Red 3 model has clear signs that holes were cut out of the lower forward fuselage and main engine cans, and were later patched up with some crude panels that are painted differently from the original model.

Kevin i just check that info, you rock LOL. I ve just found the "repaired" lower cans on Red3.....could they have swapped out the hulls at some point?
Thing is, i cant see the added Red5 left fender on the butt of the Dagobah X wing!
So yeah, does seem Red3 had landing gears for a short while!

lee

 

[Treadwell]

Red 2 was displayed in a MOM exhibit in Japan about 3 years ago.

 

[PHArchivist]

Red 2 was displayed in a MOM exhibit in Japan about 3 years ago.

I suppose that is good news. Anyone seen it even more recently?

 

[ralphee]

OK im pretty certain the Dagobah X, is a studio Hero model, not a smaller MPC equivalent as i used to think...duh lol!

It has Five Red markings for sure, but no Sherman fender on the buttplate as far as i can see.

It has lower cans, cut for landing gear, that are now, prevailant, on the still existing Hero Red3 model!

So these two models, were entered into some sick breeding program at some point possibly :lol?

lee

 

[artoo77]

Don, is there any chance you can shed light on The History of The X Wings?
Were the models catalogued while you were the archivist?

Jeremy

I debated for some time about replying here...as many of you know, I'm very free with the information I can let out, but there's the behavior of some on this board that kind of make me not want to do that...and that really upsets me. I know that's like the teacher punishing the whole class because of one unruly child, but the pettiness and immaturity I've seen exhibited here really ruins it. I don't feel like the information can be trusted....I've seen professional confidences betrayed, and I think many have missed the point as to how much that can quickly ruin one's reputation with trusted colleagues.

Of course I can shed some light on this subject...nothing against Steve Sansweet, but I'm not sure what he would know, and he's not going to make a trip to the archives or research it for anyone...

Yes, of course, the X-wings were cataloged during my tenure at the archives, and yes, there's that X-Wing in horrible condition that may or may not be Red 5. It was like that when I started in 1987, by the way. Additionally, there were several models that were just created for display...many of these questions will take time to research.

--Don Bies

Ps I don't need to hear how much the info or my presence is appreciated; that has been expressed many times, and my ego can't handle all that flattery. And don't PM to get inside info...if there is info, it should be posted for all to see...no inner circles here.

 

[ralphee]

Well just checked the DVD for a look too, ive never payed much attention to the Dagobah Red5, but it IS the Hero Red prop IMO, the weather pattern seems to match up from what i know of it, so no dice on the Red3 thing Kevin i reckon buddy?

The screws Mike mentioned in the wings, possibly to lock down the foils that could have been failing and droopy by this point?

Ive still no clue now why she's missing a hull today though, as although hard to see, the Dagobah bird, doesnt have those grub screws in the lower Sherman buttplate evident on Red3....the M5/M43 fender could have fallen off at this point too?

Maybe they had more elaborate plans for Red3 hence the evidence of gear being fitted on the front hull and engine cans?

Its all a mystery...but fun though!

lee

 

[PHArchivist]

that X-Wing in horrible condition that may or may not be Red 5. It was like that when I started in 1987, by the way.

Intriguing...

If the prop was intact for the ILM archives shot (likley taken 1983 or later due to presence of Jedi props), but dismantled by 1987, that narrows the time frame.

Again, this may be a goose chase, but Star Tours was opened around 1986 or 1987, so I'll restate the question: Does anyone know if the hero X-Wing models were used in the effects photography for Star Tours?

Alternatively, I suppose it doesn't really matter when or what happened to Red 5, unless it reveals info on the fuselage or other remaining parts. But along this line of thinking, if those parts were in existence today or accessible, I suppose they'd have already seen the light of day.

 

[BrundelFly]

There is no doubt that the CORPSE ON a STICK is whats left of RED 5.
And it looks like it was submerged, or otherwise suffered water damage.

Come on....Look at it.

Think like a set designer for a minute. If it was in a water filled set, ie SWAMP Miniature, with a WING showing, I DOUBT they would have had it's GEAR down. So for the FLOATING OUT shot, the gear (RED 3?) would be needed.

Make sense?


Look forward to any info Don will share. As per his request, no SUNSHINE INSERTS regarding Don's presence here on the RPF, That been stated, but I will express Im glad he was able to do what he did at the archives, or most of that stuff would still be in mislabeled cardboard boxes. So Cheers!

And yes Don, half of us are immature 12 year olds with the other half, immature 42 year olds.

Not to belabor the point, but I think it's important to be sure, and grateful, that at least part of Red 5 truly exists.

Here is a comparison between the paint ref's I have from '76, shots taken recently at the Archives, and a quick screencap from ANH. Although these are crops of just one engine, all the wing details line up feature-for-feature, with a few extra dirty marks here and there as they are today.

_Mike

 

[ralphee]

You mean the hovering shoot was Red3 with gear Frank? How so, its got R5 markings...in the movie and in the Chronicles? Oh and dont SHOUT at me :lol

lee

 

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Nothing more than speculation, mind you, but I'm wondering if the ILM modelers would've gone to the trouble of adding landing gear to both Red 3 and Red 5. Cutting into these hero models presented no small risk, IMO, and recreating them was apparently out of the question for ESB. The large Red 3 model they created for ROTJ hardly got any screen time, with one or more hero models from ANH pulling most of the X-Wing load, three films later.

Mike, from your reference of what's left of Red 5, any evidence that the Saturn V cans were cut into in any way?

Could be what we see in Chronicles and ESB when we see the ship with lading gear down is Red 3 with some extra temporary stripes. I'm not in front of my reference, or the film at the moment, but it would be interesting to see what other reference points we can pick out. Lee, I'm guessing you don't see the Bandai Panther fender because it's not Red 5, but that's just a guess.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's a nice shot in Chronicles that shows an X-Wing composited over one of the Dagobah matte paintings. If you look closely, the X-Wing in that shot only has three stripes. Now, I don't know if that's a still from the film or a one-off composite, but either way it shows how interchangeably they used these models

And one other thing, if we assume Red 5 got beat to hell in ESB, then what's the story with its foreground placement in that shot with Lucas and all the ROTJ hardware, albeit as "Red 4?"

So many mysteries...

 

[Clerval]

A thought on a project that may have necessitated the dismantling of the poor thing:

How were the textures created for the SE XWings? I thought they were photosourced off of the originals (more than likely only one) and then modified for the various maps (both in terms of image quality and markings), but that may not be entirely true. From what I know, the maps aren't overly large but hold a fair amount of detail in them, that could only be got from photographic sources (at reasonable time/expense combo)

If so, then it may have required the X to be taken apart for that purpose. It's a stretch, but someone may have justified it (somehow) for access angles?

It would have made more sense to put it on a stand again and shoot at the best angles, but...

 

[moffeaton]

Possible! I believe they gutted the electronics out of the 32" Falcon for the Special Edition scan...

 

[artoo77]

Where do you guys get these stories from? Neither is true.

--Don

 

[PHArchivist]

Where do you guys get these stories from? Neither is true.

--Don

Recall, Don mentioned the model was in its current condition as early as 1987. Any digital models were notably later than that.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Where do you guys get these stories from?

Confidential sources, Don. Sorry to have kept you out of the loop, but it was for your own protection.

Sorry, I've been catching up on old "24" episodes.

Just to clarify one point: In your previous post you reference a dilapidated X-Wing model currently residing in the archive that may or may not be Red Five (aka the "corpse on a stick" X-Wing). Your uncertainty here caught me a bit by surprise, as I'd thought the lineage of the model in question had been conclusively verified.

 

[Clerval]

As early as '87... wow. Then by Star Tours or so. :-(

Well, there is always the thought that Red 5 may have been the victim of an unfortunate incident or sacrificed for other work. If it served a means to an end then that could be all there is to it.

As for the rest, it's always been 2 and 3 that have been out in public, right?

I've seen one or two pics with a line-up of 7 X-Wings which all appear similar-- probably no pyros in the lot, so 3 have been seen, four not?

 

[PHArchivist]

And one other thing, if we assume Red 5 got beat to hell in ESB, then what's the story with its foreground placement in that shot with Lucas and all the ROTJ hardware, albeit as "Red 4?"

As early as '87... wow. Then by Star Tours or so. :-(

If the prop was intact for the ILM archives shot (likley taken 1983 or later due to presence of Jedi props), but dismantled by 1987, that narrows the time frame.

Again, this may be a goose chase, but Star Tours was opened around 1986 or 1987, so I'll restate the question: Does anyone know if the hero X-Wing models were used in the effects photography for Star Tours?