Accident on the set of Rust.

[scarf man]

The term “misfire” covers a lot of ground, and can encompass accidental discharge, non discharge, catastrophic failure, etc. A more precise definition would be, does not operate as it is supposed to.
A firearm has two basic functions, to shoot when you want it to, and to not shoot when you don’t want it to.

Seeing as how this thread has grown quite fast over the last few days, and I haven't read every single post, so this might have been covered....but....
I keep seeing these articles saying that the gun misfired several times, and how it misfired and killed the director of photography.
So just to be sure, I looked up a gun misfired definition, and it says thats when the gun does NOT shoot like its suppose to, which is what I thought.
So a misfire wouldn't fire the bullet like it did.
So they are really mis-using that word correctly.
From what I am getting at from these writers, is that to them, a misfire means, the gun fired on its own without anyone pulling the trigger.
I wanted to ask anyones thoughts one that.

 

[JediMichael]

The term “misfire” covers a lot of ground, and can encompass accidental discharge, non discharge, catastrophic failure, etc. A more precise definition would be, does not operate as it is supposed to.

Ah, ok.
Although, since a gun IS suppose to fire a bullet when the trigger is pulled, technically it operated perfectly fine, they just weren't wanting it to like that on set at that time and surely with real ammunition...so I guess this one would be a mix of, accidental catastrophic discharge.

 

[scarf man]

Ah, ok.
Although, since a gun IS suppose to fire a bullet when the trigger is pulled, technically it operated perfectly fine, they just weren't wanting it to like that on set at that time and surely with real ammunition...so I guess this one would be a mix of, accidental catastrophic discharge.

By catastrophic failure, I meant a round destroying the firearm or a component of it. It’s not clear to me if Baldwin operated the firearm incorrectly, or if there was some mechanical failure, ammunition mix up, or a mix of scenarios.

 

[ghostryder]

I'm a little fuzzy on the shot they were trying to get - was it supposed to be AB drawing and then firing at the camera? Blanks or no blanks - I don't think I could fire directly at another person, even if directed to do so. The director and DP can watch from a nearby monitor, so not sure why the (trigger was pulled??) weapon was pointed at them. Lot of unanswered questions...

 

[scarf man]

To be sure, lots of unanswered questions. There was a discharge of a bullet, but precisely how is still unanswered. What were Baldwin’s movements in regard to operating the firearm? Did the firearm function correctly in response to those movements?

 

[The Terminator]

To be fair, every community has it's hot-button topics and issues over definitions. Imagine the response if I posted a thread in the replica props forum titled, "Production made and screen used are basically the same thing, stop being so picky"

Though if you really want to know, a clip holds rounds ready to load into a magazine. For firearms with fixed/not usually detached magazines (e.g., C96 Mauser, Lee Enfields, M1 Garands, etc), you use the clip to feed rounds into (usually) the top of the firearm and push them down into the magazine. You can load a lot of rounds quite quickly that way, compared to feeding them in one at a time.

Modern firearms tend to use removable magazines instead. Though you can get stripper clips and tools to make loading magazines easier - I have one for my AR15 mags, not that I ever use it...

For just about anything designed post-WW2 you're probably safest to say magazine rather than clip!

Oh yes, I really want to learn. I'm like a sponge, I suck up as much information as possible. Thanks

Don’t worry about the people that take offence at the drop of a hat. I had to do 20 push-ups every time I slipped up and called a magazine a clip. But I don’t get paid to correct people so…

BTW It is certain that your knowledge of English is better than mine of Swedish. I keep the subtitles ON for all Ingmar Bergman films.

If more clueless people stayed away from guns we would be arguing about something else right now ;-)

Thanks. Good to know

Haha I bet. I'll just recommend a movie that was just released this month, "Bergman Island", ENGLISH-speaking film.
Starring Tim Roth, Mia Wasikowska... filmed where I live. I was an extra during the shoot in 2018. "BERGMAN ISLAND, follows a couple of American filmmakers who retreat to the mythical Fårö island for their upcoming films in an act of pilgrimage to the place that inspired Bergman."

 

[JPH]

To be sure, lots of unanswered questions. There was a discharge of a bullet, but precisely how is still unanswered. What were Baldwin’s movements in regard to operating the firearm? Did the firearm function correctly in response to those movements?

"Trigger discipline,"did he pull the trigger or did it go off by itself.

It also seems that they had plastic shields around cameras.

An interesting read regarding safety issues

Redirect Notice

 

[JPH]

I'm not a cinematographer but I don't think that setting up the lighting and cameras doesn't need to involve the actor acting out whatever it is they're doing. Not to mention, this is what stand ins are for, they stand in for actors while the crew sets things up for the next scene while the actor is either in wardrobe, makeup, or just waiting in their trailer for a PA to come and fetch them.

Even if he was needed on set for them to set up the lights and cameras, this still doesn't excuse Baldwin from failing to personally the gun handed to him to ensure that it was indeed cold as he was told it was. As has been stated in this thread numerous times by numerous people, one of the top rules of firearm safety is to treat every gun as if it is loaded and unless you're shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's unloaded, it's up to the individual receiving the gun to confirm for themselves that it's indeed unloaded. Trust, but verify.

The whole thing just keeps sounding more and more like a low budget rush job. Things like safety were a nuissance; a checkbox. Get a placeholder to say "see we hired someone," and then fire, ready, aim.

 

[gregory]

Thank you, it looks like it’s playing at TIFF tonight, I will try to catch it otherwise I will pick up a copy on iTunes. Looks like a great cast, it took official selection at TIFF.
This is technically not a Bergman film so I’m not contractually bound to watch with subtitles. I did buy TRESPASSING BERGMAN, mostly to satisfy my curiosity. I had mixed feelings about it, perhaps I’ll revisit that one as well.

 

[gregory]

"Trigger discipline,"did he pull the trigger or did it go off by itself.

It also seems that they had plastic shields around cameras.

An interesting read regarding safety issues

Redirect Notice

I bet a number of the people involved with that production feel regret for not addressing their concerns about gun safety. I completely understand a novice actor not wanting to rock the boat though it’s a tough business. If this is true, it seems the safety concerns were pervasive on this set. The part about people talking about the Brandon Lee shooting had a definite ominous tone.

 

[ghostryder]

How it happened: Inside movie set where Baldwin's gun fired

Accounts and images from court documents, interviews and social media postings have revealed much of what happened when actor Alec Baldwin shot and killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on an Old West movie set in New Mexico.

apnews.com

 

[agent5]

Pans Labyrinth had their firearms permit pulled at the last minute and couldn't fire any weapons on set. They had to rely on FX to add the muzzle flashes.
I wonder if we may be seeing more of that as an option in the future. Of course, adding those FX adds to the budget which is one of the key elements that caused this tragedy.

 

[joberg]

The whole thing just keeps sounding more and more like a low budget rush job. Things like safety were a nuissance; a checkbox. Get a placeholder to say "see we hired someone," and then fire, ready, aim.

Stands-in on that production? Very unlikely reading/listening to people on that movie set. Seems to me that a lot of people were multi-tasking to cut costs...including lead actors doing their own rehearsal

 

[gobler]

Wow! So just get handed an unchecked gun and fire. The Baldwin Defence

Two sets of rules.

None of us would be treated with that level of leniency.

Is the fix in?

One must try to remember that here in the U.S., each state has their own interpretation of the law and punishment. In one state it could be a crime to own "widget A", yet be legal in the surrounding states..

 

[Pumpkinhead]

The term “misfire” covers a lot of ground, and can encompass accidental discharge, non discharge, catastrophic failure, etc. A more precise definition would be, does not operate as it is supposed to.
A firearm has two basic functions, to shoot when you want it to, and to not shoot when you don’t want it to.

Soooooooooooooooooo, they are going to blame the gun. Brilliant strategy! Bunch of douches.

 

[scarf man]

Blaming the firearm is a time honored tradition of “journalists”. Why stop now?

 

[gregory]

The whole thing just keeps sounding more and more like a low budget rush job. Things like safety were a nuissance; a checkbox. Get a placeholder to say "see we hired someone," and then fire, ready, aim.

According to reports, Nicholas Cage walked off the set of THE OLD WAY screaming at Gutierrez-Reed after she fired a gun without warning for the second time in three days.

This girl seems to have a history of incompetence in an industry that demands perfection.

If you’re going to hire an armorer named Reed as your sole armorer, make sure it’s Thell Reed. Thell might want to do a DNA test, there may have been a mixup at the hospital just saying.

 

[JPH]

Soooooooooooooooooo, they are going to blame the gun. Brilliant strategy! Bunch of douches.

Wasn't their family effected

 

[JPH]

One must try to remember that here in the U.S., each state has their own interpretation of the law and punishment. In one state it could be a crime to own "widget A", yet be legal in the surrounding states..

Oh, I know, but Baldwin also has his SAG agreement and used the cheapest safety person he could get.

He really helped manufacture the incident on multiple levels.

That's whats so nauseating about this, claiming higher standards while being held to much lower expectations

 

[dascoyne]

Regardless of the budget, in my opinion, the real underlying pathology was a hazardous working environment created by a blasé regard for safety throughout the production. A low budget production doesn't have to sacrifice discipline and safety unless it chooses to do so. In this case it seems they chose to explicitly ignore even basic universal standards of safety at multiple levels.

The "casual" atmosphere regarding safety is evident throughout this case.

A veteran propmaster, Neal Zoromski had turned down the job because he felt the production was unsafe from the start. He noted that "producers of the film had combined the roles of assistant prop master and armorer, who manages firearms on set, into one position,... 'I impressed upon them that there were great concerns about that, and they didn’t really respond to my concerns about that..'" So he turned the job down.

This makes the notion of hiring of someone so inexperienced as Hannah Gutierrez Reed to cover that position even more problematic. I'm guessing she came cheap. In her last job on "The Old Way" she fired a gun without warning twice in three days. Even your average recreational shooter isn't that irresponsible. Nick Cage yelled “Make an announcement, you just blew my f—ing eardrums out!” She was a constant concern on the set due to poor muzzle discipline e.g. she would walk around with pistols tucked under her armpits. In another instance she was reprimanded for handing an unchecked rifle to an 11-year old actress. Now, all of a sudden, this same person gets hired to work solo in "Rust" for budgetary reasons. Remember, a veteran propmaster didn't think those conditions were appropriate for even himself.

The very fact that there was live ammunition brought to the set in the first place is a major red flag. I wonder if the rookie armorer was simply too green to appreciate the gravity of her job or was too timid to exert any authority. Maybe she simply became just as casual as everyone else about safety. The director, the AD as well as the veteran actor/producer also know that live ammo shouldn't be anywhere near the set. It looks like everyone just let that slide.

The fact that crew were using the pistol for "target practice" and casual plinking in the desert during lunch breaks is even more alarming still since that means the firearms were not secured, that crew had open access to them and that nobody seemed to mind that this was going on.

During the filming of "Rust" there were already at least two accidental/negligent discharges on set days before the event. In one incident Baldwin's stunt double accidentally fired off two rounds after being told the gun was "cold." (This story sounds strange, actually. I would like to know if those were actual bullets or blanks. I also wonder why he would recock and shoot a second time if there was an accidental first shot. Was he "fanning" the gun?)

Walkout of the crew for working conditions. Some reports say due to wages and safety concerns. I'm getting the feeling it was mostly about wages and working conditions (e.g. having to drive 50 miles back to accommodations combined with long work hours on a short schedule) than about safety. Still, that means the replacement non-union crew didn't even have time to become integrated or familiar with the workflow which amplifies the potential for negligence.

During their press conference the Santa Fe Sherrif's department said there were reports of drinking the night before. (This may or may not even be relevant to the incident. It's odd they brought it up unless the reports were about excessive drinking.)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the actor only supposed to receive the gun directly from the armorer, not the AD? And the armorer would open the action and demonstrate the condition of the gun to the actor. If that is the case, then a safety-conscious person ought to be concerned if the AD was trying to hand them a gun, no?

When he received the gun, Baldwin violated every one of the basic four basic rules of safe gun handling. (explained multiple times in previous posts).

If they were actually shooting a scene where the actor is pointing the gun at the camera lens, I heard the standard practice would be to set up the camera so that the gun doesn't cover a person when filming, even if it is pointing at the lens. I suppose I could see a brief exception where the cinematographer could be standing there if they were "rehearsing" to get the lighting/composition. But, if they were just rehearsing, and Baldwin had to sweep the cinematographer with the muzzle of the gun, why would he put his finger on the trigger unless he was absent-mindedly violating basic rules of gun handling?

While one person didn't create all this risk, there are a couple of people who were there every day and had the authority and responsibility to assess and address safety at all points but chose not to do so. One of them was Alec Baldwin.

I understand it is easy to cherry-pick facts and anecdotes to support a narrative. But, if all or most of this is true, it's hard not to think the entire production was an incubator for disaster.

Here's my completely speculative version of events. I believe the entire production had a "casual" attitude toward safety to the point of completely ignoring many universal industry protocols. I believe guns were unsecured and accessible to crew who were able to use them for casual plinking at off hours. I believe, on the day of the shooting the director and cinematographer were setting up shots. I don't believe Baldwin was rehearsing at the moment, but he was bored and asked the AD to get him the gun for the upcoming shot (or to play with). The AD grabbed the revolver off the table and handed it to Baldwin telling him it was a "cold gun." Maybe the AD checked it alone or with the armorer or maybe he didn't check it at all. I believe that Baldwin didn't check the gun himself and relied on the AD's word. Then, in boredom, just started goofing off and practiced a quickdraw on the cinematographer then accidentally shot her.