So the mitigating circumstance was that he didn't know that a jellyfish sting could be fatal?
I don't think that same argument holds when you are pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger.
Accident on the set of Rust.
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I don't think that same argument holds when you are pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger.
JMSupp
Well-Known Member
One thing to keep in mind. Dummy rounds can look a lot like "live" rounds. Depending on how they're made, the only difference could be the weight. That is why "live" ammunition, that is, anything that can fire a projectile, is supposed to be STRICTLY controlled on set, more so then blanks, which should be controlled as well.
For certain shots, especially with revolvers, you might want dummy rounds in the cylinder so in a close up, you can see the bullet in the cylinder.
I've seen dummy rounds on gun belts that were made from fired cases, loaded with new bullets. Without weighing them, the only way you could tell would be the primer dent on a fired case. I've even seen some folks hammer the dent out of primers before "reloading" them into dummy rounds. In that case, you'd have to know what you were looking at to be able to tell what it was.
Edit: I forgot, one way to load dummy rounds is to toss a few metal BBs inside, so that when you shake the round, hear the rattle, letting you know it's a dummy round.
For certain shots, especially with revolvers, you might want dummy rounds in the cylinder so in a close up, you can see the bullet in the cylinder.
I've seen dummy rounds on gun belts that were made from fired cases, loaded with new bullets. Without weighing them, the only way you could tell would be the primer dent on a fired case. I've even seen some folks hammer the dent out of primers before "reloading" them into dummy rounds. In that case, you'd have to know what you were looking at to be able to tell what it was.
Edit: I forgot, one way to load dummy rounds is to toss a few metal BBs inside, so that when you shake the round, hear the rattle, letting you know it's a dummy round.
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Well, several things he could've claimed-
He didn't know a jellyfish was dangerous when it was dead.
He didn't know it would splatter against the kid.
He (nor anyone else) didn't know the brother would have a reaction.
He was only "messing around" & had no malice & didn't desire that outcome.
With all those things being COMPLETELY & HONESTLY TRUE, he still threw the jellyfish & almost killed someone.
In a way it relates to an accidental shooting-
The shooter didn't load any bullets themselves.
They were told by an authority figure that the gun was unloaded.
They were doing exactly what they were supposed to be doing.
They had no ill will nor malice toward the person that was shot.
In that case, none of those HONEST & VALID STATEMENTS mean that the shooter did not fire the gun & someone died as a direct result.
There is a universal protocol for handling firearms in all settings (described in multiple posts above) which was clearly ignored in this case.
I don't recall there being universal rules for safe slinging of jellyfish.
I completely agree with you on all points. I was speaking more to the reasons/excuses that had been cited as to why & what led up to the shooting.
My point being that, all those things considered, there was ONE PERSON who drew that gun & killed someone, & ALL the incompetence/ignorance that led up to that act doesn't change that.
I was in no way trying to defend anyone involved in any of this. Sorry if my posts weren't clear.
JPH
Sr Member
And if Baldwin had not pointed the gun at people, which is very basic, this event would never have happened.
So, he could have been given a FULLY LOADED gun, and as long as it wasnt pointed at people, no injury or death.
So triple, quadruple verification, is not relevant.
You dont point guns at people, period
robstyle
Master Member
On set it's the armorer (and still at times a propmaster) that's in charge of a live weapon. If that armorer places someone else on their team in charge then it's that person who is in charge of said weapon. It is that person's job to check said weapon before, during and after on set use. Weapons are cleared for use and/or handled by the AD even if they are rubber. Handled to check what said weapon is capable of not just live fire. This takes place before any actor on set takes possession of said firearm. An actor is told the condition of said weapon. If a weapon is live it it only live before cameras are set to roll. If a weapon is cold it's cleared for use in rehearsal. Does and actor visually inspect every prop they are handed after being told it is cold and cleared, no. There is a team in charge of that to keep the ball rolling.
Again on set gun safety is very strict. This is nothing to do with opinion or politics on an actor or one's own stance on weapons. Just facts.
Again on set gun safety is very strict. This is nothing to do with opinion or politics on an actor or one's own stance on weapons. Just facts.
robstyle
Master Member
In regards to people constantly saying a weapon was aimed at people,
A movie was being filmed. A rehearsal was taking place. The scene in question seems to be an actor aiming down camera. All motions involved would be made during rehearsal. Camera ws setting up the scene which is part of said rehearsal.
Should a trigger have been pulled. No. Do we know a trigger was pulled? No. Could the weapon have misfired. Yes. Was the weapon modified, what was it loaded with, was it cleared on one chamber leaving the remaing chambers with live blanks...
Still a lot of questions to be answered.
A movie was being filmed. A rehearsal was taking place. The scene in question seems to be an actor aiming down camera. All motions involved would be made during rehearsal. Camera ws setting up the scene which is part of said rehearsal.
Should a trigger have been pulled. No. Do we know a trigger was pulled? No. Could the weapon have misfired. Yes. Was the weapon modified, what was it loaded with, was it cleared on one chamber leaving the remaing chambers with live blanks...
Still a lot of questions to be answered.
JPH
Sr Member
Hey! I see what you did there!
And, um YES you are supposed to check the gun yourself EACH TIME. That is basic. It doesnt matter what you are told, check for yourself each and every time.
Nice to see the evolution of those trying to cover for Baldwin swing from, "he's an actor he doesnt have to know" to " set gun safety is very strict."
just facts.
robstyle
Master Member
In regards to prop weapon alternates.
Prior some have asked about non guns, airsoft and other forms of prop weapons. Western prop weapons are still live fire weapons as its the most cost effective and reliable medium. There isn't much that can be done to fabricate a safer and more reliable period prop weapon than the real thing. Real steel and live fire replica western weapons have been used for decades. I've had this exact conversation with top industry professionals in both entertainment and the weapons field. Safety is above and beyond with on set armorers.
What is called a non gun, can vary from a total fabricated item to a modified off the shelf replica and even castings created for one off specific use. They can be safe enough for use point blank in some instances. In general it's an electronic charge as opposed to a powder charge. I've actually helped fabricate many. They have a place in modern style weapons. But again we're talking western weapons. See above.
Airsoft has been used again many times in many big budget and no budget projects. Even with westerns. But it can come back to looking like toy guns with special effects added in post. It's again one reason why real world weapons are used in westerns.
There are still what RPF'ers will know as MGC or Model Gun Corporation, cap fire prop weapons. These are still used but rarely. Anything past Robocop 1 was an MGC for his pistol, Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, the Pacific, all had some cap fire use in one form or another right in your face on film and few noticed.
Lastly, licensing. You can buy a forward fire blank weapon online. They are modeled after existing real world weapons but are easy to spot as they are not licensed and have an original look. They are not reliable and do not anyways read as expected with muzzle flash for a film.
Film muzzle flash is overly exaggerated to fantasy hence why you have differences in powder for blanks, 1/4 1/2 full flash. There is even a black powder blank that puts out excessive smoke. Custom blanks can be made. But again it's done by industry professionals. Every single blank is checked and rechecked prior to use and everytime they are handled. Weapons are unloaded and cleared after every use. Everything is checked and rechecked consistently. Safety is very serious.
Prior some have asked about non guns, airsoft and other forms of prop weapons. Western prop weapons are still live fire weapons as its the most cost effective and reliable medium. There isn't much that can be done to fabricate a safer and more reliable period prop weapon than the real thing. Real steel and live fire replica western weapons have been used for decades. I've had this exact conversation with top industry professionals in both entertainment and the weapons field. Safety is above and beyond with on set armorers.
What is called a non gun, can vary from a total fabricated item to a modified off the shelf replica and even castings created for one off specific use. They can be safe enough for use point blank in some instances. In general it's an electronic charge as opposed to a powder charge. I've actually helped fabricate many. They have a place in modern style weapons. But again we're talking western weapons. See above.
Airsoft has been used again many times in many big budget and no budget projects. Even with westerns. But it can come back to looking like toy guns with special effects added in post. It's again one reason why real world weapons are used in westerns.
There are still what RPF'ers will know as MGC or Model Gun Corporation, cap fire prop weapons. These are still used but rarely. Anything past Robocop 1 was an MGC for his pistol, Saving Private Ryan, Band of Brothers, the Pacific, all had some cap fire use in one form or another right in your face on film and few noticed.
Lastly, licensing. You can buy a forward fire blank weapon online. They are modeled after existing real world weapons but are easy to spot as they are not licensed and have an original look. They are not reliable and do not anyways read as expected with muzzle flash for a film.
Film muzzle flash is overly exaggerated to fantasy hence why you have differences in powder for blanks, 1/4 1/2 full flash. There is even a black powder blank that puts out excessive smoke. Custom blanks can be made. But again it's done by industry professionals. Every single blank is checked and rechecked prior to use and everytime they are handled. Weapons are unloaded and cleared after every use. Everything is checked and rechecked consistently. Safety is very serious.
robstyle
Master Member
Hey! I see what you did there!
And, um YES you are supposed to check the gun yourself EACH TIME. That is basic. It doesnt matter what you are told, check for yourself each and every time.
Nice to see the evolution of those trying to cover for Baldwin swing from, "he's an actor he doesnt have to know" to " set gun safety is very strict."
just facts.
I didn't "do" anything, I'm not covering for anyone, I don't know anyone involved as of this moment, I have no axe to grind or stance to take, I make no analogies, I am not political. I do however have five decades of experience in the entertainment industry. I work with weapons often.
JPH
Sr Member
Being told by an authority figure it was unloaded does not absolve him from not checking himself.
He was practicing by aiming at a group of people, which is the exact opposite if what he should be doing. He can practice aiming /quickdrawing at any fixed point in the room.
If you or I were practicing a quickdraw with a gun we didnt check, and targeting near a group of people, it kills someone...we be in jail
JPH
Sr Member
Wow! It would be exciting to know a list of people who dont check their weapons! Five decades! Thats gotta be alotta names!
Since you make it sound like its so common. I am confident SAG wouldnt share the attitude that it happens and it is acceptable. Police may also not agree with you, but hey, you claim to know about it.
Go ahead, let's hear who doesnt check their firearms!!
Five decades, thats gotta be alotta names!
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robstyle
Master Member
JMSupp brought up prop ammunition.
Sometimes custom shells are fabricated or existing brass is modified for specific use. With primers it's common to clean and use them for use as is in an existing spent casing. A metal bb is inserted into the empty shell casing then the bullet/slug is instered and crimped into the casing as would a real live round. Inert ammunition it's called.
Those rare instances where a "bullet" needs to look real a primer may be removed and a custom machined brass rod is inserted.
Other times you'll find inert ammunition is made with the dummy round sticking out just enough so it will not fit into a magazine/clip. This is usually when a lot of dummy inert ammunition is used on a set with live blanks present. If those inert rounds were to somehow make its way into a magazine they would jam right away. I have lots of. 556 and 7.62 inert ammunition like this.
You'll also see a plug fire cap, often refereed to an PFC/MGC, next to the 9mm inert round below. You also notice the custom machined brass inert primer in one of the 9mm casings its custom made for close ups when loading a weapon on camera.
Sometimes custom shells are fabricated or existing brass is modified for specific use. With primers it's common to clean and use them for use as is in an existing spent casing. A metal bb is inserted into the empty shell casing then the bullet/slug is instered and crimped into the casing as would a real live round. Inert ammunition it's called.
Those rare instances where a "bullet" needs to look real a primer may be removed and a custom machined brass rod is inserted.
Other times you'll find inert ammunition is made with the dummy round sticking out just enough so it will not fit into a magazine/clip. This is usually when a lot of dummy inert ammunition is used on a set with live blanks present. If those inert rounds were to somehow make its way into a magazine they would jam right away. I have lots of. 556 and 7.62 inert ammunition like this.
You'll also see a plug fire cap, often refereed to an PFC/MGC, next to the 9mm inert round below. You also notice the custom machined brass inert primer in one of the 9mm casings its custom made for close ups when loading a weapon on camera.
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JPH
Sr Member
¹
You made the claim now refuse to support it.
Good to know.
What was that about *not* being political, not covering for anyone?
EDIT: You working for SAG isnt the issue. You claim actors do not check their weapons giving the impression that Baldwin, a seasoned actor, doesnt have to or that it is commonplace. Baldwin is associated with SAG. Baldwin shot and killed someone, completely avoidable if he HAD checked his firearm.
You made the claim now refuse to support it.
Good to know.
What was that about *not* being political, not covering for anyone?
EDIT: You working for SAG isnt the issue. You claim actors do not check their weapons giving the impression that Baldwin, a seasoned actor, doesnt have to or that it is commonplace. Baldwin is associated with SAG. Baldwin shot and killed someone, completely avoidable if he HAD checked his firearm.
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robstyle
Master Member
¹
You made the claim now refuse to support it.
Good to know.
What was that about *not* being political, not covering for anyone?
EDIT: You working for SAG isnt the issue. You claim actors do not check their weapons giving the impression that Baldwin, a seasoned actor, doesnt have to or that it is commonplace. Baldwin is associated with SAG. Baldwin shot and killed someone, completely avoidable if he HAD checked his firearm.
I'm after facts in the case. Not personal attacks or political nor personal views or agendas. There are many here that have no idea how things are done on a working set. Others have already convinced themselves their opinions are fact. Some, even after getting inside information refute it. Feel free to block any of my postings.
I do not work for SAG. If you want you can research on your own what department is represented by what union. And then research union and non union. Also research state to state and county to county rules and regulations. Then branch off into other countries and how things are done. If you're into research it gets very interesting i promise you.
JPH
Sr Member
I do not care if YOU work for SAG.
Baldwin is a different story.
YOU made the claim actors do not follow appropriate protocols, but when pressed, you evade the issue by claiming you dont work for SAG.
I dont care who you work for. That is irrelevant.
This is about your claims that you refuse to support. You like using the word "fact" so give us some facts on these actors who breach protocol.
Oh, unless you dont really have any facts. You have been asked to prove your claims repeatedly. Five decades of expertise, pony up on your facts or I will assume you have none.
You see actors ignoring protocols. Like who? How many injuries have you seen from this negligence?
Someone was just killed because of those protocols being violated. That's what happens when you let people breach protocol
I dont care about your SAG status.
EDIT : We are talking about basic gun safety protocols.
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