Accident on the set of Rust.

[JPH]

JPH.
I won't accept your bait.

Because proving your claims is "bait"?

Hahahaha!

Troll, you have been outed!

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

Being told by an authority figure it was unloaded does not absolve him from not checking himself.

He was practicing by aiming at a group of people, which is the exact opposite if what he should be doing. He can practice aiming /quickdrawing at any fixed point in the room.

If you or I were practicing a quickdraw with a gun we didnt check, and targeting near a group of people, it kills someone...we be in jail

Do you just not realize that was the exact point I was making? He could & possibly will be charged with manslaughter, because that is based on the resulting action, not the intention.

 

[JPH]

Do you just not realize that was the exact point I was making? He could & possibly will be charged with manslaughter, because that is based on the resulting action, not the intention.

But he has a second issue to worry about, his role as a producer. He fired union members and created an environment which may have allowed for the event.

Like leaving a trail of jellyfish along the path in advance.

Did Baldwin go to work that day thinking, "Im gonna kill her"? I hope not.

I am also seeing issues about her husband.

What we do know regarding his violation of gun safety should be enough already.

 

[JPH]

JPH, honest question.

I think everyone agrees that Baldwin fired the shot, so you'll get no argument from me there.

Do you think that he is solely responsible, morally and legally, for the tragic event that killed a person and wounded another?

That is, if you were Judge Judy, and could drag in anyone on the set, anyone credited on the film, anyone involved in anyway, and punish and/or fine them, would Baldwin be the only one at fault?

Did he "fire" it?

Didnt the gun have a record of misfiring?

Go by what we do know: Baldwin violated basic gun safety in atleast two areas. You or I would be in jail if we shot someone like that. Baldwin is also a producer who cut cost, hired a noob weaponsmaster.

There had been issues on the set already. A producer on the set who has been in multiple films should have reduced bad outcomes.

If others contributed, charge them accordingly.

 

[Dr Jones Sr]

All the minutiae aside, as a person raised with guns around the house there are two rules

1) never point a loaded gun at anybody.

2) every gun is always loaded.

If somebody hands me a firearm I don't give a damn whether they told me it was loaded, or not loaded, or was a simulated firearm, or what.

I'm going to check it myself. I'm going to take out the clip or swing open the cylinder, open the slide, look down the barrel (from the breech end) and make sure there are no live rounds, no blank rounds, nothing in the barrel, nothing anywhere.

Even then I would NEVER point that firearm at anybody! And would never put my finger on the trigger, never pull the trigger.

Why? See Rule #2 above. No matter if I just personally checked it, that gun must be treated as if it were loaded.

People who weren't raised with guns probably can't imagine how ingrained these behavours are, how utterly impossible it is for somebody like me to point a gun at somebody, and even more impossible to point the gun at somebody and pull the trigger.

Even blanks, I wouldn't point the gun at somebody. If I was an actor and had to shoot blanks towards another actor my firearm would be pointed slightly to one side or the other, not pointing directly at him or anybody else.

To point a firearm at somebody at close range and pull the trigger is utterly wrong and unimaginable. Blanks have hot burning gunpowder spewing out, they can maim and kill.

On a different note the reportage has been annoyingly misleading, for one thing saying it was a "prop gun" which gives many in the public the perception that the gun was made out of rubber or something. Yes I know anything an actor handles is a "prop" but I've had to explain to people that it was an actual real firearm, though quite possibly modified to only fire blanks.

Another thing was reporting about "accidental discharges" which gives many people in the public the perception that firearms just sitting around untouched will fire by themselves. I've often encountered such beliefs, tantamount to animism, that firearms can fire by their own volition and/or possess people to do their bidding.

 

[joberg]

There were issues with cost and complaints because they removed Union members.

Also prior firearm issues on the set.

Why use a noob weaponsmaster when you are already having issues? Recipe for bad stuff.

The wisest choice would be to Hire the best, most professional cleanup person/ weaponsmaster you can

Neil W. Zoromsky, a veteran prop master said, (in an interview in the Los Angeles Times), that he turned down the offer of joining "Rust" they would not give him the team he requested. He asked for a team of five tech, which is standard in the industry. He then modified his request and asked for two experienced crew members: an assistant prop master and an armorer who would handle the weapons.
He was told that the production could only afford one person to handle all of these duties, so he turned down the job. Quote: "There massive red flags. After I pressed "Sent" on that last email, I felt, in the pit of my stomach: That's an accident waiting to happen."
Also, according to Deadline the production was on a tight budget (6 or 7 million $) and a 21- day filming schedule, so corners were cut...hence this incident.

 

[Psab keel]

I'll just leave this here in case anyone forgot what this whole situation is really all about.

 

[Moviefreak]

All arguments aside. All viewpoints aside. All speculation aside. We can all agree that even if no criminal charges are placed on anyone associated with the unfortunate event, the civil lawsuits will be huge. The production company, Alec Baldwin, the other members of the crew who dropped the ball… they all are going to be paying millions in lawsuit court.

 

[joberg]

All arguments aside. All viewpoints aside. All speculation aside. We can all agree that even if no criminal charges are placed on anyone associated with the unfortunate event, the civil lawsuits will be huge. The production company, Alec Baldwin, the other members of the crew who dropped the ball… they all are going to be paying millions in lawsuit court.

Indeed, at the end of the day, things are going to end up if front of the courts. Silver lining of this whole affair is the fact that the Industry is going to change (as some T.V. series have already done) and not use real firearms. Airsoft + CGI is going to be the norm in a very near future.

 

[ghostryder]

Detectives Find Loose, Boxed Ammo In Fanny Pack On 'Rust' Set

Scattered ammunition raises new questions about safety on the movie set where cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was killed with a prop gun.

www.huffpost.com

 

[dascoyne]

Indeed, at the end of the day, things are going to end up if front of the courts. Silver lining of this whole affair is the fact that the Industry is going to change (as some T.V. series have already done) and not use real firearms. Airsoft + CGI is going to be the norm in a very near future.

I don't think that is a good idea.

It's like, instead of encouraging more discipline in safety, let us use airsoft guns so some folks can be just as irresponsible as they've always been.

The use of firearms is not the issue. It was the disregard of basic and universal standards of safety that is the issue.
For decades countless productions that used even more guns and pyrotechnics with zero fatalities simply because they observed basic universal precautions. There is nothing like the authenticity of a real firearm at times, but that also comes with necessary safety measures. Everybody in the industry and most people in the world understand that. Why penalize more responsible productions that want to use real firearms because of one production that was reckless at multiple stages?

If there was a low budget film production that tried to "steal shots" by driving recklessly in a chase scene without city permits, and it resulted in an unknowing pedestrian getting killed by the stunt car, would the appropriate response for the industry to change to CG car chases?

 

[agent5]

1) never point a loaded gun at anybody.

Actually, never point a gun at anyone, loaded or not.
And the thread title should say negligence, not accident.

 

[ghostryder]

'Rust' Chief Electrician Blames Shooting on 'Negligence and Unprofessionalism' in Scathing Facebook Post

Rust's chief electrician, Serge Svetnoy, wrote a blunt Facebook post on Sunday about the [...]

popculture.com

"The negligence from the person who was supposed to check the weapon on the site did not do this; the person who had to announce that the loaded gun was on the site did not do this; the person who should have checked this weapon before bringing it to the set did not do it. And the DEATH OF THE HUMAN IS THE RESULT!" Svetnoy went on. "I'm sure that we had the professionals in every department, but one — the department that was responsible for the weapons. There is no way a twenty-four-year-old woman can be a professional with armory; there is no way that her more-or-less the same-aged friend from school, neighborhood, Instagram, or God knows where else, can be a professional in this field. I'm sure that we had the professionals in every department, but one - the department that was responsible for the weapons. There is no way a twenty-four-year-old woman can be a professional with armory; there is no way that her more-or-less the same-aged friend from school, neighborhood, Instagram, or God knows where else, can be a professional in this field."

 

[Bigdaddy]

This thread has reminded me why I've only had one person on ignore since joining the RPF. After 3 years I took him off the list and within 2 weeks he's right back where he belongs.

 

[Moviefreak]

This thread has reminded me why I've only had one person on ignore since joining the RPF. After 3 years I took him off the list and within 2 weeks he's right back where he belongs.

I never had a person set to ignore since 2009. After watching a troll this week in this thread… I have my first one.

 

[JPH]

A perfect example of how cutting corners ends up costing so much more.

But failing to follow protocols resulting in *more rules* isnt the fix. Ya gotta follow what was already in place.

If established protocols fail, then by all means, change it. If established protocols are ignored, adding more stuff that will also be ignored wont fix anything.

 

[gregory]

One thing to keep in mind. Dummy rounds can look a lot like "live" rounds. Depending on how they're made, the only difference could be the weight. That is why "live" ammunition, that is, anything that can fire a projectile, is supposed to be STRICTLY controlled on set, more so then blanks, which should be controlled as well.

For certain shots, especially with revolvers, you might want dummy rounds in the cylinder so in a close up, you can see the bullet in the cylinder.

I've seen dummy rounds on gun belts that were made from fired cases, loaded with new bullets. Without weighing them, the only way you could tell would be the primer dent on a fired case. I've even seen some folks hammer the dent out of primers before "reloading" them into dummy rounds. In that case, you'd have to know what you were looking at to be able to tell what it was.

Edit: I forgot, one way to load dummy rounds is to toss a few metal BBs inside, so that when you shake the round, hear the rattle, letting you know it's a dummy round.

One thing to keep in mind. Dummy rounds can look a lot like "live" rounds. Depending on how they're made, the only difference could be the weight. That is why "live" ammunition, that is, anything that can fire a projectile, is supposed to be STRICTLY controlled on set, more so then blanks, which should be controlled as well.

For certain shots, especially with revolvers, you might want dummy rounds in the cylinder so in a close up, you can see the bullet in the cylinder.

I've seen dummy rounds on gun belts that were made from fired cases, loaded with new bullets. Without weighing them, the only way you could tell would be the primer dent on a fired case. I've even seen some folks hammer the dent out of primers before "reloading" them into dummy rounds. In that case, you'd have to know what you were looking at to be able to tell what it was.

Edit: I forgot, one way to load dummy rounds is to toss a few metal BBs inside, so that when you shake the round, hear the rattle, letting you know it's a dummy round.

One thing to keep in mind. Dummy rounds can look a lot like "live" rounds. Depending on how they're made, the only difference could be the weight. That is why "live" ammunition, that is, anything that can fire a projectile, is supposed to be STRICTLY controlled on set, more so then blanks, which should be controlled as well.

For certain shots, especially with revolvers, you might want dummy rounds in the cylinder so in a close up, you can see the bullet in the cylinder.

I've seen dummy rounds on gun belts that were made from fired cases, loaded with new bullets. Without weighing them, the only way you could tell would be the primer dent on a fired case. I've even seen some folks hammer the dent out of primers before "reloading" them into dummy rounds. In that case, you'd have to know what you were looking at to be able to tell what it was.

Edit: I forgot, one way to load dummy rounds is to toss a few metal BBs inside, so that when you shake the round, hear the rattle, letting you know it's a dummy round.

The following is my take on the firearm handling, it’s a little long, but gun safety
is not all fun and games.

So, if the scene necessitates pointing at camera so that you can see the bullet heads through the cylinder you may have very realistic dummy rounds.

If you take the weapon, the moment it comes into your sole possession it becomes your responsibility.

While pointing in a safe direction during
the duration of the process you check the firearm.

You open the loading gate rotate the cylinder and see one or more cartridge casings.

Regardless of whether or not you see a firing pin strike on the primer you take that weapon to a safe place to dry fire. (Making sure you keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and finger out from trigger guard throughout the transport process) At the dry fire site with proper backstop everyone present for dry fire should have hearing and eye protection especially in an indoor setting.

If I was going to be pointing a gun with blanks at or near someone in a film I would remove the cylinder and check the barrel for obstructions. This is very easy on a single action army revolver. I have never voluntarily looked down the muzzle end of a firearm. I use a device that is easier to replace than my person.

When I make a dummy round I take special attention to leave the noticeable strike mark on the primer. I think safety supersedes people like me having their suspension of disbelief nudged a little.

As for a “hair trigger” being the issue for discharge, a SAA revolver generally needs the hammer to be at full cock before you can strike the round.

Common safety practice with SAA
revolvers without a transfer bar safety
is to load 5 rounds instead of 6 and lower the hammer on an empty chamber. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was not observed on that particular set.

If you treat a single action revolver
with the due respect it is less likely to
fail than a semi automatic.

Any number of people could have prevented this tragedy, however the person that caused it was the one with the finger on the trigger.

 

[gobler]

The safety protocols for on set weapons was posted here.

The safety protocols from S.A.G. was posted here.

The basic safety rules for gun handling was posted here.

ALL were ignored! This is now a homicide investigation and very well end up in criminal and civil court.

There will be one main defendant: Alic Baldwin
There may be several other as negligent. The A.D. is almost certain as well as the Armorer..

This is where we're at.

 

[Ron]

Have there been any other on set fatalities between Brandon Lee and this latest incident? Surely there have been more stunt men and women killed in that same period of time. I don't think anyone believes stunt work should be phased out. No need to stop using firearms all together either. Just for heaven's sake practice safety.

 

[Moviefreak]

I’m willing to bet 50% or more of actors/actresses have never done a gun inspection for themselves in the past, and always trusted the people in place who handed them the gun and told them it was safe. I am also willing to guarantee that 100% of them will check everything from this point, as they will be scared to death that this could happen to them.