Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

[Usagi Pilgrim]

Gotcha.

Well, I think KK had to be aware of what was being planned by Rian. It was several months ago when it was announced that JJ would be taking over IX, then it was only a couple of days after TLJ was released that JJ gave his pitch to Bob Iger.

To me, that timing alone gives me confidence that no one is really playing catch up with the story for IX. I also think that JJ has always had an EP credit on these films as well, so I believe anything that needed to be signed off on, JJ had a hand in it.

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#2089, It was only a couple of hours ago and just a few posts up and you were online at the time of posting. To tell you the truth, I`ve lost interest now anyway.

Sorry... Double post

 

[Mr Webber]

Gotcha.

Well, I think KK had to be aware of what was being planned by Rian. It was several months ago when it was announced that JJ would be taking over IX, then it was only a couple of days after TLJ was released that JJ gave his pitch to Bob Iger.

To me, that timing alone gives me confidence that no one is really playing catch up with the story for IX. I also think that JJ has always had an EP credit on these films as well, so I believe anything that needed to be signed off on, JJ had a hand in it.

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Sorry... Double post

Do you think it is good practise to have the beginning of a trilogy in production and at the same time have someone else write the second part of that same trilogy without any awareness of what was happening with the beginning? That was the main point of that whole video.

 

[Mr Webber]

Very fair point, but considering Lucas was the main conceptualist of the OT, & he changed several things from the initial plan, including Luke's dad, Luke's sibling, & changing Wookies to Ewoks, changes going from one creative team to another is to be expected.

Your response to my video posting.

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Absolutely, but none of those things were obvious when the films were released. Thats the benefit of having someone in charge of the final product. Where was KK when you had one director making the first part of the new trilogy when at the same time the director and writer of the second instalment had no idea what the first director was doing?

Now poor JJ has to compromise his third part of the trilogy trying to straighten out the gaps/failures of Johnsons effort.

My response to that.....just clarifying.

 

[Usagi Pilgrim]

Ok.

I think we got crossed in our responses.

My point is that what happend on the SOLO film, with KK stepping in when they didn't like where the directors were taking that movie, shows that she has a pretty tight reign on the various aspects of the SW franchise. I know that's a separate entity from the saga films, but I think the point stands that's she's unequivocally in charge of SW.

Now, from what we know if the timing of this new trilogy, JJ signed on to direct the first film & EP the last two with KK overseeing. After TFA as released, Johnson was announced as writer & director of TLJ, still with JJ EPing the whole thing, so my point up to there, is that JJ had to be fully aware of where TLJ was going. If at any point KK felt the franchise was being damaged or going off the rails, I don't believe she wouldn't have stepped in. It was also during production of TLJ, that Trevorrow dropped out, & in September JJ officially took over IX, almost exactly four months before release. Then, as I said before, two days after the release, IX's story was pitched to the head of Disney by JJ. I think that's a quick rebound by someone who was blindsided by the perceived destruction of the foundation he'd laid in TFA.

I am subscribed to the Hybrid Network channel on YouTube, & enjoy their vids, but their coverage of TLJ,I feel is a bit skewed by their dislike of the movie. Like many others, it seems that because they didn't like it, then the BTS has simply GOT to be in a complete & utter cluster.

To relate it to my point about the OT, I wonder how Irving Kirshner felt, after directing Carrie Fisher to passionately kiss Luke in his recovery bed on Hoth in order to really build up the love triangle, to then see ROTJ & find out those two were now siblings. It was a total burial of that layer of the SW Saga, but to your other point, we had no way of knowing that at the time so we accepted it.


That's why I disagree with the sentiment of 'poor JJ'. Each of these men are storytellers, & I've looked at these films as a relay race, with each one picking up the baton & running their particular leg of the race, & don't think KK is going to put anytime on the team that she thinks can't run with it. JJ started, & has the unexpected job of finishing, but I don't believe there's any way he didn't know what was going on in the middle.

 

[Getoninja]

not sure if posted before
Mark Hamill hurts

 

[Somerset]

Every year I go see my extended family at Christmas. My 19 year old cousin is currently studying visual effects (or some such degree) at university. He was mighty pleased that now the movie was out, he could reveal that he'd managed to do some intern work compositing shots on The Last Jedi at some point over the last year.

I asked him which specific shots he had worked on and he proudly mentioned the 'Superman Leia scene'. I forced a smile and said 'Ah, you mean Leia Poppins, congrats,' and stifled a rather large sigh and said no more on the matter.

 

[Mr Webber]

Ok.

I think we got crossed in our responses.

My point is that what happend on the SOLO film, with KK stepping in when they didn't like where the directors were taking that movie, shows that she has a pretty tight reign on the various aspects of the SW franchise. I know that's a separate entity from the saga films, but I think the point stands that's she's unequivocally in charge of SW.

Now, from what we know if the timing of this new trilogy, JJ signed on to direct the first film & EP the last two with KK overseeing. After TFA as released, Johnson was announced as writer & director of TLJ, still with JJ EPing the whole thing, so my point up to there, is that JJ had to be fully aware of where TLJ was going. If at any point KK felt the franchise was being damaged or going off the rails, I don't believe she wouldn't have stepped in. It was also during production of TLJ, that Trevorrow dropped out, & in September JJ officially took over IX, almost exactly four months before release. Then, as I said before, two days after the release, IX's story was pitched to the head of Disney by JJ. I think that's a quick rebound by someone who was blindsided by the perceived destruction of the foundation he'd laid in TFA.

I am subscribed to the Hybrid Network channel on YouTube, & enjoy their vids, but their coverage of TLJ,I feel is a bit skewed by their dislike of the movie. Like many others, it seems that because they didn't like it, then the BTS has simply GOT to be in a complete & utter cluster.

To relate it to my point about the OT, I wonder how Irving Kirshner felt, after directing Carrie Fisher to passionately kiss Luke in his recovery bed on Hoth in order to really build up the love triangle, to then see ROTJ & find out those two were now siblings. It was a total burial of that layer of the SW Saga, but to your other point, we had no way of knowing that at the time so we accepted it.


That's why I disagree with the sentiment of 'poor JJ'. Each of these men are storytellers, & I've looked at these films as a relay race, with each one picking up the baton & running their particular leg of the race, & don't think KK is going to put anytime on the team that she thinks can't run with it. JJ started, & has the unexpected job of finishing, but I don't believe there's any way he didn't know what was going on in the middle.

Im not sure how I got my responses crossed but will just go with it for the sake of all our sanity. I will respond to each comment in order to lessen any crossing.

In regards to SOLO, it seems that there were issues from the very begining and it was allowed to fester for a long time and much expense until action was taken. This late action that has had a cloud hanging over the entire project since

The video was suggesting that Johnson was writing TLJ as Abrams was in production of TFA and was mostly oblivious to what Abrams was doing. That was the basis for the video and my response to that video. Nothing to do with Trevorrow.

The Hybrid Networks reporting is as valid as anyone elses in the business. If you percieve them as being biased because they didnt like the movie that is simply your opinion. It can just as easily be said that you are biased against The Hybrid Network because you liked the movie and they didnt. Both are purely subjective.

George Lucas was standing next to Kirshner through the entire process and I`m sure that Lucas would have had the whole Leia / Luke thing down at the time and it played out just as he had envisioned and Kirshner knew exactly that. Now that is just reasonable assumption but Im sure those with a greater SWIQ than myself will be able to clarify that. Either way the impact of Leia and Luke being brother and sister is a genius move that did nothing to undermine the series and was something that was never questioned by the masses or confused them. I cant imagine a time when Lucas didnt want Han to be the love interest. Again, the benefit of having one person in charge.

My use of poor JJ was sarcastic.

 

[Mr Webber]

Every year I go see my extended family at Christmas. My 19 year old cousin is currently studying visual effects (or some such degree) at university. He was mighty pleased that he could now the movie was out, he could reveal that he'd managed to do some intern work compositing shots on The Last Jedi at some point over the last year.

I asked him which specific shots he had worked on and he proudly mentioned the 'Superman Leia scene'. I forced a smile and said 'Ah, you mean Leia Poppins, congrats,' and stifled a rather large sigh and said no more on the matter.

My congratulations to your cousin for playing a part in such a large scale production. My sympathies to your cousin for playing a part in such a laughable scene.

 

[sztriki]

George Lucas was standing next to Kirshner through the entire process and I`m sure that Lucas would have had the whole Leia / Luke thing down at the time and it played out just as he had envisioned and Kirshner knew exactly that. Now that is just reasonable assumption but Im sure those with a greater SWIQ than myself will be able to clarify that. Either way the impact of Leia and Luke being brother and sister is a genius move that did nothing to undermine the series and was something that was never questioned by the masses or confused them. I cant imagine a time when Lucas didnt want Han to be the love interest. Again, the benefit of having one person in charge.

I don't have a specific source to cite but as far as I know the Leia-Luke twins part came in when ROTJ was being written as a plot device. They had to have something that Vader would say that makes Luke angry enough to be nearly pushed over the edge and that's what they came up with. In fact the original Leigh Brackett script for ESB had Luke's love and jealousy over Han as a major weapon in Vader's hands in the end duel (at that point Vader was not Luke's father).

 

[Mr Webber]

I don't have a specific source to cite but as far as I know the Leia-Luke twins part came in when ROTJ was being written as a plot device. They had to have something that Vader would say that makes Luke angry enough to be nearly pushed over the edge and that's what they came up with. In fact the original Leigh Brackett script for ESB had Luke's love and jealousy over Han as a major weapon in Vader's hands in the end duel (at that point Vader was not Luke's father).

And it all panned out superbly. Of course Lucas had to make changes during such an epic journey as the OT. the key thing was that they all made each movie stronger, not weaker. In my opinion of course.

 

[Helpful Nerd]

So since this thread is about whether we like TLJ, yes I liked it. Love it, no! Did I enjoy it? Hell yeah I did.

My favorite SW movie is Empire Strikes Backs. Out of all the SW movies ESB is almost perfect. With that said I'll admit I am a SW fanboy, it's my favorite fandom. SW is super important to me. Almost all my t-shirts are SW. I wear SW Crocks, I have prop replicas, toys, collectibles, socks, boxers, etc. It's a little outta hand. LOL.

I actually like TLJ overall, its about conflict and we, as Star Wars fans feel conflicted about it. Mission accomplished then LOL regarding the plot of TLJ.

So I have to rank the movies now ( 1 Favorite 9 Least Favorite)

1. Empire Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Rogue One
4. The Last Jedi
5. Return of The Jedi
6. The Force Awakens
7. Clone Wars
8. Revenge of The Sith
9. Phantom Menace (The pod race was pretty cool though)

At the end of the day I like Star Wars, therefore I like all of it on a certain level.

I admit I am nervous about the Han Solo movie. I was also nervous about Rogue One and that was awesome!

Here's hoping that the next SW movie makes me feel like I child again, because that's the entire point for me.

 

[sztriki]

And it all panned out superbly. Of course Lucas had to make changes during such an epic journey as the OT. the key thing was that they all made each movie stronger, not weaker. In my opinion of course.

Oh yea, no argument there at all. I said it multiple times I'm up for things being changed if anything I wish TLJ changed or developed different things more instead of just stirring up the pot and maintaining status quo. To this day I can't understand what people mean when they say it's so different and we just need to accept changes.

 

[The Brahma Bull]

Oh yea, no argument there at all. I said it multiple times I'm up for things being changed if anything I wish TLJ changed or developed different things more instead of just stirring up the pot and maintaining status quo. To this day I can't understand what people mean when they say it's so different and we just need to accept changes.

Well it was the first SW movie with 30 plots and still no story. That's pretty different.

 

[sztriki]

Well it was the first SW movie with 30 plots and still no story. That's pretty different.

Well that's true indeed, that may be the gamechanger. :lol
I certainly was expecting a coherent story and a well-made script so that did subvert my expectations. Maybe I'll just get used to that.

 

[DaddyfromNaboo]

Nonsense. That discounts the entirety of literary analysis (and by extension film criticism). Many, many works benefit from deeper exploration. As an English teacher who teaches a film studies course, I can't tell you how often students grow to appreciate something they'd initially written off...once they dig a little deeper.

Absolutely true. But these is not an art house movie, like I wrote before, this ist Star Wars. Escapistic Space Opera. The story is clear cut, the plot should be somewhat plausible. It is an Action driven adventure, not a character driven coming of age movie.

Just out of curiosity, what movies did you pick to discuss with your students?

 

[CutThumb]

I don't believe for a minute that episode VIII wasn't written without AT LEAST establishing the plot outlines for IX .I managed to come up with three different but reasonably strong story lines for IX just for the hell of it over Xmas and things aren't quite as bad as some of us might have thought. The SW universe is just too rich in characters and ideas to be destroyed that easily.
But if it was the case that there were nothing for IX then somebody needs to seriously rethink how they manage the franchise going forward . All this secrecy ,much like we had with the prequels, means the writers and directors are left to produce these scripts in isolation and without much critical feedback so the story may be prone to weaknesses. And if we get a repeat of that leak from the premiere days before the general release the damn movie is spoilt anyway.
My point is that the tone of the film is so changed by the removal of Luke and Snoke that they must have had a draft script for IX.
But what I believe has happened is that Rian's outline for IX focused strongly on Leia and Kylos relationship (you can already see that being set up in and that Carries death literally destroyed the central premise of it.
Trevorrow couldn't solve that issue (even with help from Derek Connolly), and preproduction began for this back in 2016. Rian couldn't (or wouldn't) , which, given what he did to VIII to leave it where it is seems a bit off ( but I do note with some annoyance that suddenly he says "I can write you a brand new trilogy" and they embrace him like the prodigal son returning), and now JJ and co are left to pick up the pieces.
I really would advise they just put back the release to May 2020 and give themselves some time to hammer a reasonable working script out of this, because, if Solo does take a bashing, they will need something strong to pull the older fans back to it.
And besides they now have the Avatar releases to work around.

 

[The Brahma Bull]

Well that's true indeed, that may be the gamechanger. :lol
I certainly was expecting a coherent story and a well-made script so that did subvert my expectations. Maybe I'll just get used to that.

I watched episode 1 -3 over the last 3 days and after seeing TLJ it's like the exact opposite. I don't really like the looks of the PT and some acting is really wooden, things the ST get's done better. But it tells a story. You know from the beginning where it's going to end, but you can follow it. Undertand it without seeing it multiple times. It has it flaws but it's mostly coherent. Even if George Lucas is a creative mastermind, he's not the best story teller. But actually you get a story over three to six movies and you realise that, surely not everything, many things we're planned before making the first movie.

 

[cayman shen]

Absolutely true. But these is not an art house movie, like I wrote before, this ist Star Wars. Escapistic Space Opera. The story is clear cut, the plot should be somewhat plausible. It is an Action driven adventure, not a character driven coming of age movie.

Just out of curiosity, what movies did you pick to discuss with your students?

A typical semester of my class will cover (and forgive me if I leave something off; I'm just waking up):

Nosferatu
Blade Runner
Robocop
Donnie Darko
The Graduate
The Godfather
Jackie Brown
Waking Ned Devine
Run Lola Run
Apocalypse Now
Three Kings
The Big Lebowski
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Seven Samurai
Moulin Rouge
Dancer in the Dark
The Iron Giant
Casablanca
Let the Right One In (If time...it's fun to end with a vampire flick to contrast with Nosferatu)

Plus various documentaries on film.

I try to cover as much ground as I can but 20 weeks just isn't enough!

 

[sztriki]

I watched episode 1 -3 over the last 3 days and after seeing TLJ it's like the exact opposite. I don't really like the looks of the PT and some acting is really wooden, things the ST get's done better. But it tells a story. You know from the beginning where it's going to end, but you can follow it. Undertand it without seeing it multiple times. It has it flaws but it's mostly coherent. Even if George Lucas is a creative mastermind, he's not the best story teller. But actually you get a story over three to six movies and you realise that, surely not everything, many things we're planned before making the first movie.

I have to disagree there, the overall story arc of the PT is clean and understandable enough but the details are all over the map. The most amusing wrap-up of the TPM plot is this:

https://youtu.be/d8AoXCBOaBE

Then there's the Plinkett ROTS review that goes on about how the whole Order 66, Republic vs Trade Federation, kidnapping, Grievous not knowing who Sidious is, etc just don't add up...

A typical semester of my class will cover (and forgive me if I leave something off; I'm just waking up):

Nosferatu
Blade Runner
Robocop
Donnie Darko
The Graduate
The Godfather
Jackie Brown
Waking Ned Devine
Run Lola Run
Apocalypse Now
Three Kings
The Big Lebowski
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
Seven Samurai
Moulin Rouge
Dancer in the Dark
The Iron Giant
Casablanca
Let the Right One In (If time...it's fun to end with a vampire flick to contrast with Nosferatu)

Plus various documentaries on film.

I try to cover as much ground as I can but 20 weeks just isn't enough!

That's a formidable list! Glad to see The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (my favourite movie) and Robocop there, so many people don't recognize that it's much more than just a dumb bloody action movie.

 

[The Brahma Bull]

I have to disagree there, the overall story arc of the PT is clean and understandable enough but the details are all over the map. The most amusing wrap-up of the TPM plot is this:

https://youtu.be/d8AoXCBOaBE

Then there's the Plinkett ROTS review that goes on about how the whole Order 66, Republic vs Trade Federation, kidnapping, Grievous not knowing who Sidious is, etc just don't add up...

Ok this is hilarious and thank you for destroying the PT for me :-D