Rebels Freddie Prinze Jr. Star Wars rant

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Trimming a bit again to try to ease readability.

Admittedly, I never noticed her using a staff form in the duel. I'm even having a hard time imagining it but I'll definitely watch it again and look for it. Thanks for pointing it out.

Trimmed out the rest of that, and have read the follow-up posts. I am also familiar with Shad, and this is one where he missed it. The staff form tells are where she jabs with the saber the same way she did with her staff, where she snap-strikes with her wrist versus a solid swing, and a few other things I'd need to watch the movie again to call out. No, the skills aren't a 1:1 translation, and the duel with Kylo should have made it a little more clear she was acting almost involuntarily, with muscle-memory shading her actions.

I assumed that she had absorbed some knowledge during the mind probe but that's the issue for me. She's gained knowledge and ability without having to work for it. I don't dispute that's what opened her up to the force, I just don't like it as a concept.

This is the biggie for me in TFA. After the download, I feel it would have fit her character arc better to have her increasingly freaking out about the things she's finding herself doing. A couple blink-and-you-miss-'em shots of her looking at her hands in confusion or the one "I don't know [how I escaped], and you wouldn't believe me" comment weren't enough to shine a spotlight on what she was going through. I'm going to be testing the organic flow when I get to this point in my rewrite, but so far "wait -- where did that come from?"; her doing a thing, everyone looking at her, and her saying "I have no idea why I did that"; and eventually a terrified "what is happening to me?!" moments are roughed in to make it clear something's massively shifted for her.

I could absolutely see her flying the Falcon but to do so in such an incredible way on her first time flying it seemed like a big stretch. And then lining up that shot for Finn. By the way, I think that was a missed opportunity for Finn. Rather than make him so bumbling, write him as a battle hardened storm trooper and it's his combat skills and not Rey's piloting skills that save them. That would've strengthened Rey's trust in Finn to help her.

That I'll give you. I also dialed back the "scared deserter" tone of Finn's character in my rewrite -- just want him rattled when his indoctrination doesn't line up with what he's observing outside established First Order territory. As for Rey's piloting... I need to go back and re-watch, but I think more of her aerobatics are camera stunts versus actual ship maneuvering. From the teaser:

...and image-stabilized:

The rest was mostly white-knuckled dodging of debris and mostly-straight-line flying through the Ravager's superstructure. A slight slow-down and "Force Theme" music sting when she lined up the exit back into the open would have helped convey she wasn't the only one in the pilot's seat, I think. I have a couple notional fixes for the "Finn takes the shot" moment.

Excuse me. I meant speaking to droids and Wookiees by using the force. [trim]But isn't it implied that she's able to understand Chewie because of the force? Maybe I misinterpreted it but I saw Finn's amazement that she could talk to Chewie as an indication that she was using the force.

Nooo...? I always took that as Finn having grown up in a homo-sapiens-only Empire Fan Club and never having been that close to a nonhuman -- let alone being taught their languages. We know from how he treats Rey in Niima Outpost that he sees her as a helpless damsel until she strips those layers away one-by-one. He goes charging to her rescue only to see her lay Unkar's thugs out. He grabs her to run from the TIEs, only to be admonished to stop leading her by the hand. He expresses amazement at her being a pilot. Etc.

Frankly, given female Stormtroopers and Captain Phasma, I'd figure he had ample experience around competent females and wouldn't default assume incompetence. Flip side, he's seen competent female stormtroopers, and she isn't, so it might be a general "but you're a civilian" disdain inculcated through his upbringing and indoctrination. Either way, weak writing. If the former, inconsistent universe-building. If the latter, needed to be clearer.

With Rey, I could see her being able to talk to droids by nature of her being a scavenger and most likely working on or with droids (although shouldn't that mean that Luke can understand droids also?)

He understands Treadwell, but I figure different makes of labor droids have different droidspeak "dialects" (i.e., proprietary code, and the manufacturers refuse to cooperate to set a universal standard because competition). Why I feel he had the gist of what Artoo was conveying in ANH and ESB, despite needing Threepio to interpret or the translation screen in his fighter. We also have no idea what Rey's early education in such things was, that then she had opportunity to continue to practice on Jakku. She spoke the Teedo language to warn that dude off BB-8, and I doubt it was the Force that gave her that skill...

 

[Halliwax]

And Rey didn't defeat a Sith Lord either. She defeated a "child in a mask." Who had just killed his father, trying to prove his strength.
"I killed Han Solo. When the moment came I didn't hesitate."
"And look at you, the deed split your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced... Bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber! You failed!"

That child in a mask beat a grand master Jedi... then purged his temple, killed most of his students and left him for dead..

 

[Psab keel]

Not to mention killed the Supreme Leader.

 

[Joek3rr]

It’s only in Star Wars if you subscribe to the idea that the prequels are canon. No prophecy is mentioned in the OT, no chosen one, and no fake destiny. The only places that word crops up are by the villains, when they try to rob Luke of his freedom by telling him he has no choice, that it’s his “destiny” to join them. It’s like Psab keel keeps saying: Star Wars is a buffet; we take what we like and leave what we don’t. Stories that force the main characters to act on a consistent basis will never be interesting to me, so I’d rather keep those concepts as far away from Star Wars as possible, as I happen to rather like Star Wars. The OT never needed the excuse of “it’s the will of the Force” to explain anything—anything that exists there now is a result of the prequels making unnecessary connections between characters, like having Anakin build C3PO and stuff like that.

"Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him."
"You mean it controls your actions?"
"Partially. But it also obeys your commands."

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."
"You don't believe in the Force, do you?"
"Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen anything to make me believe there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny."

"You see, you can do it."
"I call it luck."
"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."

"They must be delivered safely or other star systems will suffer the same fate as Alderaan. Your destiny lies along a different path than mine. The Force will be with you... always!"

"Your destiny lies with me, Skywalker. Obi-Wan knew this to be true."

"I will not turn...and you'll be forced to kill me." "If that is your destiny."

"It is unavoidable. It is your destiny. You, like your father, are now mine!"

"You underestimate the power of the dark side. If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny."

"Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side!"

(Those are all from the Original Trilogy. It has more references to an all-controlling Force and destiny then the other films combined)

"Will you take him with you? Is he to become a Jedi?"
"Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident."

"Finding him was the will of the Force...I have no doubt of that."

"Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force."

"What have I done?"
"You are fulfilling your destiny, Anakin."

 

[Joek3rr]

That child in a mask beat a grand master Jedi... then purged his temple, killed most of his students and left him for dead..

Um no. They clashed sabers, then Ben brought the hut down on top of Luke. And Ben had help, what students Ben didn't kill, joined him.

 

[Joek3rr]

Please explain how I can both at the same time.

Simple. You just can.

The Force is an entity that is not bound by time or space. Anything can happen. It's impossible for us to comprehend how both aspects can be true at the same time. But we are finite mortal people bound by time.

 

[Ron]

Trimming a bit again to try to ease readability.

Trimmed out the rest of that, and have read the follow-up posts. I am also familiar with Shad, and this is one where he missed it. The staff form tells are where she jabs with the saber the same way she did with her staff, where she snap-strikes with her wrist versus a solid swing, and a few other things I'd need to watch the movie again to call out. No, the skills aren't a 1:1 translation, and the duel with Kylo should have made it a little more clear she was acting almost involuntarily, with muscle-memory shading her actions.

This is the biggie for me in TFA. After the download, I feel it would have fit her character arc better to have her increasingly freaking out about the things she's finding herself doing. A couple blink-and-you-miss-'em shots of her looking at her hands in confusion or the one "I don't know [how I escaped], and you wouldn't believe me" comment weren't enough to shine a spotlight on what she was going through. I'm going to be testing the organic flow when I get to this point in my rewrite, but so far "wait -- where did that come from?"; her doing a thing, everyone looking at her, and her saying "I have no idea why I did that"; and eventually a terrified "what is happening to me?!" moments are roughed in to make it clear something's massively shifted for her.

That I'll give you. I also dialed back the "scared deserter" tone of Finn's character in my rewrite -- just want him rattled when his indoctrination doesn't line up with what he's observing outside established First Order territory. As for Rey's piloting... I need to go back and re-watch, but I think more of her aerobatics are camera stunts versus actual ship maneuvering. From the teaser:

...and image-stabilized:

The rest was mostly white-knuckled dodging of debris and mostly-straight-line flying through the Ravager's superstructure. A slight slow-down and "Force Theme" music sting when she lined up the exit back into the open would have helped convey she wasn't the only one in the pilot's seat, I think. I have a couple notional fixes for the "Finn takes the shot" moment.

Nooo...? I always took that as Finn having grown up in a homo-sapiens-only Empire Fan Club and never having been that close to a nonhuman -- let alone being taught their languages. We know from how he treats Rey in Niima Outpost that he sees her as a helpless damsel until she strips those layers away one-by-one. He goes charging to her rescue only to see her lay Unkar's thugs out. He grabs her to run from the TIEs, only to be admonished to stop leading her by the hand. He expresses amazement at her being a pilot. Etc.

Frankly, given female Stormtroopers and Captain Phasma, I'd figure he had ample experience around competent females and wouldn't default assume incompetence. Flip side, he's seen competent female stormtroopers, and she isn't, so it might be a general "but you're a civilian" disdain inculcated through his upbringing and indoctrination. Either way, weak writing. If the former, inconsistent universe-building. If the latter, needed to be clearer.

He understands Treadwell, but I figure different makes of labor droids have different droidspeak "dialects" (i.e., proprietary code, and the manufacturers refuse to cooperate to set a universal standard because competition). Why I feel he had the gist of what Artoo was conveying in ANH and ESB, despite needing Threepio to interpret or the translation screen in his fighter. We also have no idea what Rey's early education in such things was, that then she had opportunity to continue to practice on Jakku. She spoke the Teedo language to warn that dude off BB-8, and I doubt it was the Force that gave her that skill...

The rewrite you're working on...is this something you plan on releasing publicly? The little tidbits you've offered up so far have been very intriguing in how they address key elements throughout the saga. I for one would love to read it.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

The rewrite you're working on...is this something you plan on releasing publicly? The little tidbits you've offered up so far have been very intriguing in how they address key elements throughout the saga. I for one would love to read it.

In some way, at some point. There's a lot of fiddly copyright law to bang my head against to protect my take on a previously-existing work, that uses a lot of the same characters and locations and events, just... from a certain point of view.

It started back in the early '90s as I, as a teenager into twenty-something, was getting ever more into the real-world minutiæ of Star Trek and Star Wars. Soul of an engineer -- I need to deconstruct things and figure out how they work, why they are the way they are, and then, hopefully, do something with that insight. I had been trying to figure out for a while why Return of the Jedi had always felt "off" to me, compared to the previous two, and, as the Star Wars Renaissance got into full swing, why some works in what was now being called the Expanded Universe were so much better -- or so much worse -- than others. Got me delving into all the making-of and art-of books and documentaries, every interview with every person involved with the OT I could find, seeing the evolution of the story over the various treatments and drafts, what deleted scenes spoke to, and so on and so on.

The gestalt picture that started forming -- and then being expanded on as all the PT-era and later behind-the-scenes stuff got added to the mix -- painted a picture of how the potential of the setting had been constrained by George's shortcomings as a storyteller versus idea guy.

Then, after TPM came out, I was in a scriptwriting class when my professor told us the best way to learn the craft was to see what others had done before us. But, he said, there's a lot of crap out there (well, he didn't say crap). So if we ever found ourselves watching something and noticed we had gotten jarred out of the experience by something that didn't work, "don't just sit there bitching about it -- get a copy of the script and see if you can do better". Thus began the Great Star Wars Rewrite of Doom™ (although, back then, it was just fixing ROTJ -- but one thing led to another).

Bringing it back around, this is why I get hacked off at people like Freddie lumping me in with the actual toxic fans, why I'm mad that, rather than anyone involved ever engaging in a discussion about points of valid critique, they spend all that time and energy railing against the worst of us, and I can't help but feel like they don't see a distinction...

 

[Psab keel]

Beautifully said!

I too cannot stand for the condescending attitude he has either. It's one thing to disagree on a subject but to so vehemently oppose any other perspective, going so far as to label them sexist is just unacceptable. To my knowledge he's never made a distinction between the trolls on twitter/ social media who use Star Wars to spout racist/ sexist crap and fans like me, so I take issue with that.

Freddie may be grateful to Lucasfilm for resurrecting his mostly dead career but that doesn't give him the right to be such a dick about it.

 

[Halliwax]

Um no. They clashed sabers, then Ben brought the hut down on top of Luke. And Ben had help, what students Ben didn't kill, joined him.

“Your arrogance blinds you”

 

[Joek3rr]

“Your arrogance blinds you”

My point is. Those two examples don't show how skilled a swordsman Ben is. So until we find out a canon answer, I think people should avoid thinking Rey beat some lightsaber expert. I mean for all we know Ben had built his lightsaber the night before.

 

[Bigdaddy]

 

[cboath]

My point is. Those two examples don't show how skilled a swordsman Ben is. So until we find out a canon answer, I think people should avoid thinking Rey beat some lightsaber expert. I mean for all we know Ben had built his lightsaber the night before.

Kylo doesn't have to be an expert. However, he's been training at it for what? 10-15 years? Supposedly he's dueled other students and luke in the past and likely snoke to some degree thereafter.

Rey, never turned the damn thing on before.

10+ years of experience beats the snot out of 10 seconds every single time. Every Single Time.

From what we know, she kept the saber at the end of the TFA and a couple days later - even if it's two weeks it's basically nothing - she's spent a day at most with Luke who didn't show her squat with the saber.

At which point she's able to take apart the royal guards on her own and destroy them.

There's nothing in that flow that's remotely believable. What's the (any?) setback in her journey? Luke being a dick? Han dying after she'd known him a whole day or two?

I mean, shot or not, the first glimpse we get of Kylo is him stopping a blaster bolt in mid-air. That's pretty bad-ass. So, even shot, he should have loads of advantage of her. She doesn't even know the force can let you pull an object to you, but she can pull it from kylo who's already demonstrated damn near absolute mastery of the subject in the first scene of the movie?

In ANH, Luke had a bit of training from Ben and listened to him - and Ben came to him in the trench and told him how to do it more or less. Rey had nothing but herself. I'm not going to sit here and say it didn't make for a good scene, it absolutely did. But you analyze it, it completely falls apart.

The force willing it is just dumb. Why didn't the force just make Hux or another officer take him down before hand? Why wouldn't the force have applied itself from someone who'd already had some training who'd have a better impact on Kylo? I'm referring to Leia. Why wouldn't the force kick Luke in the ass for (having RJ) turn him into a total jerk and have him rise to the occasion?

You can't have someone show up and be damn near infallible and master everything the first try without some explanation.

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

Uh huh. The age old predestination vs free will argument.
You know those are opposite things, right?

The Force is an entity that is not bound by time or space. Anything can happen. It's impossible for us to comprehend how both aspects can be true at the same time. But we are finite mortal people bound by time.

I totally know where you're going with this, but explaining it further would violate some rules, methinks.

 

[Joek3rr]

Kylo doesn't have to be an expert. However, he's been training at it for what? 10-15 years? Supposedly he's dueled other students and luke in the past and likely snoke to some degree thereafter.

Rey, never turned the damn thing on before.

10+ years of experience beats the snot out of 10 seconds every single time. Every Single Time.

From what we know, she kept the saber at the end of the TFA and a couple days later - even if it's two weeks it's basically nothing - she's spent a day at most with Luke who didn't show her squat with the saber.

At which point she's able to take apart the royal guards on her own and destroy them.

There's nothing in that flow that's remotely believable. What's the (any?) setback in her journey? Luke being a dick? Han dying after she'd known him a whole day or two?

I mean, shot or not, the first glimpse we get of Kylo is him stopping a blaster bolt in mid-air. That's pretty bad-ass. So, even shot, he should have loads of advantage of her. She doesn't even know the force can let you pull an object to you, but she can pull it from kylo who's already demonstrated damn near absolute mastery of the subject in the first scene of the movie?

In ANH, Luke had a bit of training from Ben and listened to him - and Ben came to him in the trench and told him how to do it more or less. Rey had nothing but herself. I'm not going to sit here and say it didn't make for a good scene, it absolutely did. But you analyze it, it completely falls apart.

The force willing it is just dumb. Why didn't the force just make Hux or another officer take him down before hand? Why wouldn't the force have applied itself from someone who'd already had some training who'd have a better impact on Kylo? I'm referring to Leia. Why wouldn't the force kick Luke in the ass for (having RJ) turn him into a total jerk and have him rise to the occasion?

You can't have someone show up and be damn near infallible and master everything the first try without some explanation.

Ben is 23 when he begins his training. He was born in 5 ABY, goes to the temple in 28 ABY, events of TFA take place in 34 ABY. That means, max, he's had 6 years of lightsaber experience. Assuming that he built his saber immediately. And that he continued to train after he went to Snoke.

Rey is born in 15 ABY. Which makes her 19 during TFA. She's left on Jakku around 5 or 6. She moves into her AT-AT home when she's 10. So I'd say at minimum your looking at 5 to 6 years that's she's had to hone her self defense skills, in order to stay alive. So Rey's got what's needed to use a lightsaber. Remember we've seen other characters like Pre Vizsla and Finn adapt their melee fighting style to use a lightsaber. And they aren't even Force sensitive. And against a physically and emotionally wounded Ben, with the Force as her ally, it's not unbelievable.

Side note, Ben and Rey still have more melee fighting experience then Luke ever did. I'm curious to see if the new comics will show how Luke suddenly become an expert swordsman between ESB and ROTJ.

Simply, we do not know what the Force has planned. The Force moves in mysterious ways. Plus even though the Force has control. Individuals still have a free will.

 

[Captain Dunsel]

The length of this thread, and some of the videos I am seeing pop-up (that also are “rants” themselves; meeting negativity with more negativity) such as the one below...

...really should prompt us to sit back and laugh a little bit about this whole thing. I mean, the dogmatic reactions and accusations of heresy from some people regarding, of all things, “Star Wars”?? Come on, really??

I mean, it is only a film series about fictional fantasy characters that we are talking about, in the grand scheme of things, right? People are talking about Luke and Rey, etc. as if they were real people bounded by some sort of well-defined reality vs. fictional characters in a fictional universe.

The reaction to Freddie, that I recommend, is to follow the teachings of the “The Dude” by simply saying:

...and then, moving on.

Right?? Am I missing the reason why his statements merit this attention and debate (I ask that as I spend time writing this, I know )?

 

[Psab keel]

While I agree with you and yes it is just a movie, it's hard to sit back idly when you are accused of being sexist for not liking a fictional character. Which is exactly what he's doing. This is the level of absurdity we are dealing with. Is this the end of the world? Not by a long shot.

If his attitude is the general consensus of those up top though, eventually Star Wars will die off because people will stop watching. Though not much more can really be said and this isn't anything new sadly. This thread should really be combined with Joek3rrs Let's talk all things Star Wars.

 

[Cephus]

While I agree with you and yes it is just a movie, it's hard to sit back idly when you are accused of being sexist for not liking a fictional character. Which is exactly what he's doing. This is the level of absurdity we are dealing with. Is this the end of the world? Not by a long shot.

If his attitude is the general consensus of those up top though, eventually Star Wars will die off because people will stop watching. Though not much more can really be said and this isn't anything new sadly. This thread should really be combined with Joek3rrs Let's talk all things Star Wars.

Of course they are. You have to remember that people who do that, they're emotionally stunted. They're effectively being immature children, calling other people names because they can't make an intelligent argument. I see this all over the place. It's why fandoms are so fragmented these days. It isn't about coming together to enjoy a property, it's about being right at all costs.

And that's pathetic.

 

[cboath]

Ben is 23 when he begins his training. He was born in 5 ABY, goes to the temple in 28 ABY, events of TFA take place in 34 ABY. That means, max, he's had 6 years of lightsaber experience. Assuming that he built his saber immediately. And that he continued to train after he went to Snoke.

Rey is born in 15 ABY. Which makes her 19 during TFA. She's left on Jakku around 5 or 6. She moves into her AT-AT home when she's 10. So I'd say at minimum your looking at 5 to 6 years that's she's had to hone her self defense skills, in order to stay alive. So Rey's got what's needed to use a lightsaber. Remember we've seen other characters like Pre Vizsla and Finn adapt their melee fighting style to use a lightsaber. And they aren't even Force sensitive. And against a physically and emotionally wounded Ben, with the Force as her ally, it's not unbelievable.

Side note, Ben and Rey still have more melee fighting experience then Luke ever did. I'm curious to see if the new comics will show how Luke suddenly become an expert swordsman between ESB and ROTJ.

Simply, we do not know what the Force has planned. The Force moves in mysterious ways. Plus even though the Force has control. Individuals still have a free will.

There was what? 18 months or so between ESB and ROTJ. There's been maybe 10 days total between the start of TFA and the end of TLJ....

 

[vader45]

Of course they are. You have to remember that people who do that, they're emotionally stunted. They're effectively being immature children, calling other people names because they can't make an intelligent argument. I see this all over the place. It's why fandoms are so fragmented these days. It isn't about coming together to enjoy a property, it's about being right at all costs.

And that's pathetic.

Agreed. I usually stay out of these discussions because they get heated pretty fast. And when I get to the thread there are 10 more pages of replies. I'm not saying the pathetic are on this forum but that there is an ever so slightly thin gloss of it here. We have good intentions but can take something the wrong way.

Now the truely pathetic that I rank Prinze in is well pathetic. There is no need to be to mean, rude, sexist and send death threats even just for trolling over what a fictional movie? There is nothing that warrants that kind of behavior. What is it about Star Wars that provokes this? I would have sold the franchise and washed my hands of it if I were George Lucas. I can't blame him for it. Star Wars is where it's at because that portion of the fan base and it's toxicity. I know I hate Ep 1 and 2 but after TLJ I would rather have George back making his visions come to life. At least the PT is politically free of BS and has a clear start and end with the story even if the execution is poor.