Rebels Freddie Prinze Jr. Star Wars rant
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The Brahma Bull
Sr Member
It's kinda sad what cry babies these guys are. Fans don't like it then it's the fault of the fans and not of our ****** product.
I dunno why they always defend their ****. If I wouldn't sometimes look things up online I would not believe that there are people who actually like tlj. Never met one in person and the whole theatre was ranting about how bad that movie is. Nobody can tell me that all the guys working on this flick saw what it became and cheered. I think a lot of them just thought "Man, this is a big piece of crap" and things like that aren't a big secret behind the scenes. So the backflash of where Disney is going with SW is surely no surprise for the company. But blaming the "toxic" fans is always the easiest way.
I dunno why they always defend their ****. If I wouldn't sometimes look things up online I would not believe that there are people who actually like tlj. Never met one in person and the whole theatre was ranting about how bad that movie is. Nobody can tell me that all the guys working on this flick saw what it became and cheered. I think a lot of them just thought "Man, this is a big piece of crap" and things like that aren't a big secret behind the scenes. So the backflash of where Disney is going with SW is surely no surprise for the company. But blaming the "toxic" fans is always the easiest way.
Master Boda
Sr Member
When Luke had his first “fight” in the cave he failed as he used his anger.In ESB when Luke fought “real” Vader for the first time he lost his hand,not much of a “big win”.Anakin fights Dooku for the first time he lost half an arm,again not a “big win”.Rey fights Kylo and does not even get a scratch.Do you consider loss of a limb a big win?I almost envy you Joek3rr as I never developed a taste for kool-aid,you seem to have a steady diet of it.
Can I just say that "perverted my expectations" is now my favorite ST-related phrase, and I am both happy to have read it and disappointed I didn't think of it first.
Carry on...
cboath
Master Member
And not to mention at that point anakin had had like 10 years of master level training (as in from actual masters) on a daily basis AND had a full blown Obi-wan nearly in his prime - and they still got their asses handed to them.
Well, the difference is Luke had the required skill set to accomplish his big win. Rey didn't. Anakin did for one of his wins. Allow me to elaborate...
It's established throughout the course of the film that Luke is a great pilot prior to any connection he made to the force. According to Biggs, he's the best in the outer rim of the galaxy. Ben also remarks to Luke that he heard he'd become quite a pilot.
So we know Luke can fly.
Later during the mission briefing, Luke comments that he used to bullseye womp rats that weren't much bigger than the exhaust port of the Death Star. This establishes that Luke is a great marksman.
So we know Luke can shoot.
With those particular skill sets, it's established that Luke is skilled enough to:
1. Engage in a star fighter battle.
2. Make a possible though highly improbable shot.
Now during the battle, we watch Red Leader make the first attempt to hit the exhaust port. Despite using a targeting computer and being the best pilot in the Rebellion (I think that's safe to assume considering his designation is Red Leader), he misses. Luke's odds for hitting this shot are not looking good.
So what does Luke do of course? With a little guidance from Obi-Wan, he turns off his targeting computer and uses the force to make an impossible shot. But to what magnitude does he actually use the force? All he really did was steady his aim. It's not as if he lifted rocks or mind tricked someone. Like we established previously, Luke is a capable marksman. He just needed that little boost from the force to give him a slight edge. He basically enhanced a skill he already had. It was a minor use of the force really when compared to things like shooting lighting out of your hands or pulling a lightsaber out of the snow when a very powerful dark side user is tugging from the other end.
Now let's look at Rey's duel with Kylo...
Rey, with no previously established sword wielding skills, is able to go toe to toe with a Luke/Snoke trained, highly powerful Sith. How is she able to do this? Well, according to the movie, she used the force. Now the force as we knew it in the previous trilogies gives you certain telekinetic and mind control abilities as well as enhancing your senses but since when does it give you mastery of real world skill sets out of nowhere? In the first half of the duel, Rey is swinging the lightsaber like a blindfolded child trying to hit a piñata. Then when the force "activates" in her, she turns into Zorro.
Or when she's flying the Falcon...
At first she can barely launch and immediately crashes into things and then a minute later she's doing maneuvers that makes the ESB asteroid chase look like a walk in the park.
Or how she can talk to droids and to Wookies; a concept that's never been established previously.
So in this current era of Star Wars, the force works something like the training programs in the Matrix. You basically download whichever skill set you need like Neo did. But instead of using a computer connected to your brain, you just close your eyes for a second or two. Groovy.
Now with Anakin...
Anakin has pod racing experience and skills. Like Luke, the force helped him not by creating a previously non-existent skill set, but by enhancing his senses thereby improving the skills he already has. Now it is implied that he's subconsciously using the force as Qui-Gon mentions humans need quick reflexes to pod race. I don't have a problem with this as he is the chosen one after all and it's such a subtle use of the force that it doesn't break the rules of the universe. So I would argue that Anakin's victory there is deserved.
The space battle above Naboo is a different story. It was a bad sequence but not because of anything to do with the force. I don't think it was the force guiding him, but an astronomical amount of good luck. Okay I could buy him controlling the star fighter but how he's able to not get shot down and hit all the right buttons and end up inside the station hanger only to blow it up and save the day is obviously pretty ridiculous. He basically Mr. Magoos his way through the whole fight. Now maybe it was the force guiding him, and not luck, but that would be as absurd as what Rey does. Either way it's bad.
It's all about how you look at it Joek3rr . I hate the current idea that mastery of the force requires no training whatsoever. It's boring and dilutes both the meaning of the force and the hard work it takes to acquire and use it. I think the differences are pretty clear though. And we haven't even touched on the aspect of agency that Psab keel mentioned but we already covered that in the other thread.
And that was a lot of text from me lol.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Ah but your talking about the second film out of those trilogies. That's different. I'm talking about the first film of each trilogy. In the first film the hero has a big win. In TPM, Anakin wins the Pod race, and blows up the Lucrehulk control ship. In ANH Luke blows up the Death Star. And in TFA Rey defeats Ben. In all four cases it's the same thing. The Force, works through our young heroes allowing them to accomplish superhuman, near impossible feats.
Anakin learned things incredibly fast, which is why Anakin is upset because they are teaching him at the same pace as other Jedi. Luke was made a Jedi because of expediency. Rey does nothing except just get powers. She doesn't even get the minimum training that Luke got.
I'm gonna picky-choosy a few things out of here...
Good rundown of how the script presents and contextualizes Luke's and Anakin's abilities in ANH and TPM. So, trimmed. Now --
• We spend a lot of the first act seeing her using and defending herself with her staff on Jakku. We know from the flashback that she's been there for about a decade, and has had to rely on her own skills for a decent chunk of that time, as she was left in Unkar Plutt's care, but lives on her own and has a tense relationship with him when we see them now. These staff forms are also most of how she fights with the saber in both TFA and TLJ. It's subtle, but not that subtle... but apparently too subtle for many, as several of us are still pointing this out almost four years later.
• She's a skilled pilot. Up until fairly late in pre-production she had her own "Ugly" cobbled together from bits of various crashed starfighters dating back to the Battle of Jakku, but that ended up being ditched (along with cutting back on her home decor) to show her having a more spartan existence. They're talking over each other, but after the escape on the Falcon, she tells Finn she's flown before, but never off-planet. Between the "I can do this" and the "I don't know how I did that", it's supposed to convey something like Luke relaxing and letting go during the trench run or in the wampa cave, but the sequence is so intercut we never really get to see it.
• The Force is strong with her, though she's never been aware of it consciously, just as with Anakin and Luke before her. So when she instinctively resisted Kylo's mind-probe attempt, she pushed back into his head and subconsciously absorbed some portion of his knowledge and training. This definitely needed to be focused on a bit more in the screen-time, given how many people didn't get that's what was going on. All of the "how does she know how to do that?" stuff that follows is from that -- the Mind Trick, the telekinetic saber grab, etc.
• As for that lightsaber duel... The writers heavily handicapped things her way. Her opponent was mentally jumbled, had just taken a bowcaster bolt to the gut (that we'd seen blowing up walls and sending people flying) with barely a pause, was bleeding badly, and had just fought a warm-up round with Finn. Combine her years of staff fighting with stuff she absorbed from Kylo and his severely weakened state, and she still barely held her own... until an admittedly ham-fisted "use the Force" moment let her visualize the way through the move that would end the fight.
All stuff that was in the film, but sped through or glossed over so much that many otherwise-intelligent viewers missed one or more of these plot points.
Good rundown of how the script presents and contextualizes Luke's and Anakin's abilities in ANH and TPM. So, trimmed. Now --
Incorrect. It's a series of things that some people got and some people didn't, so that obviously points to weakness in the script in presenting it, but:
• We spend a lot of the first act seeing her using and defending herself with her staff on Jakku. We know from the flashback that she's been there for about a decade, and has had to rely on her own skills for a decent chunk of that time, as she was left in Unkar Plutt's care, but lives on her own and has a tense relationship with him when we see them now. These staff forms are also most of how she fights with the saber in both TFA and TLJ. It's subtle, but not that subtle... but apparently too subtle for many, as several of us are still pointing this out almost four years later.
• She's a skilled pilot. Up until fairly late in pre-production she had her own "Ugly" cobbled together from bits of various crashed starfighters dating back to the Battle of Jakku, but that ended up being ditched (along with cutting back on her home decor) to show her having a more spartan existence. They're talking over each other, but after the escape on the Falcon, she tells Finn she's flown before, but never off-planet. Between the "I can do this" and the "I don't know how I did that", it's supposed to convey something like Luke relaxing and letting go during the trench run or in the wampa cave, but the sequence is so intercut we never really get to see it.
• The Force is strong with her, though she's never been aware of it consciously, just as with Anakin and Luke before her. So when she instinctively resisted Kylo's mind-probe attempt, she pushed back into his head and subconsciously absorbed some portion of his knowledge and training. This definitely needed to be focused on a bit more in the screen-time, given how many people didn't get that's what was going on. All of the "how does she know how to do that?" stuff that follows is from that -- the Mind Trick, the telekinetic saber grab, etc.
• As for that lightsaber duel... The writers heavily handicapped things her way. Her opponent was mentally jumbled, had just taken a bowcaster bolt to the gut (that we'd seen blowing up walls and sending people flying) with barely a pause, was bleeding badly, and had just fought a warm-up round with Finn. Combine her years of staff fighting with stuff she absorbed from Kylo and his severely weakened state, and she still barely held her own... until an admittedly ham-fisted "use the Force" moment let her visualize the way through the move that would end the fight.
All stuff that was in the film, but sped through or glossed over so much that many otherwise-intelligent viewers missed one or more of these plot points.
See previous "skilled pilot" for the latter part, but as for the rest... When one knows how to drive, one knows how to drive, but if you're used to a Honda Civic, you're going to need a minute to adjust to a Ford F-350 -- especially if you're trying to escape while someone's shooting at you.
Since when has this been a problem? Han and Obi-Wan both understood Chewie in ANH. Some people understand droidspeak. Luke had to rely on a translator for the first few years for the finer points, but still was able to pick up the gist fairly quickly. By the time he heads off to Ahch-To, he can understand Artoo pretty well. When one mostly lives on an isolated farmstead on a backwater planet, one probably won't pick up much of that. When one lives in a multispecies trading post, one is more likely to.
Master Boda
Sr Member
Fair enough first movie in the trilogies.In ANH Luke wants to go to Tosche station and chill with his friends but Owen puts his foot down and says no like he did when Luke wanted to go to the academy,Luke has not won.While under Luke’s supervision a R2 unit has went rouge and rolled off,Luke finds the R2 unit but alas gets butt kicked by a Tusken Raider only to be saved by a ”old wizard” as poor Luke has did not win again.Later Luke goes to Mos Eisley to find a pilot only to get his butt kicked by a outlaw Dr. yet saved by old Ben and still did not win.Luke finds himself getting crushed in a garbage compactor,but do not fear the droids will save his rear.Luke flying down a trench has just lost his two wingman and his R2 unit has taken a direct hit.With Vader closely approaching Luke things are not looking good until out of the blue Han allows him to take a free shot and just like that Luke has his first win since we have met him.
I could go on about Anakin and Rey but I won’t as I think my words might fall apon deaf ears.Rey was not cut from the same cloth as Anakin and Luke.
Not to mention Leia pulls him back from falling into the Death Star chasm which is another time when Luke was saved by his friends. I'll have to find my list at some point.
The fact that four years later there is still so much contention surrounding Rey speaks volumes about how poorly she was developed.
There may be kernels of ideas that support the claims of her effectiveness, but they are often glossed over or so obscure that fans could easily over look them or misinterpret them. In many cases the concepts are simply not developed enough which makes the defense seem like it's overreaching to make tenuous connections where there really are none.
These debates cross THREE threads. If it was so obvious that the ST was amazing, why have we all been debating it for the last four years across more than one discussion?
The fact that four years later there is still so much contention surrounding Rey speaks volumes about how poorly she was developed.
There may be kernels of ideas that support the claims of her effectiveness, but they are often glossed over or so obscure that fans could easily over look them or misinterpret them. In many cases the concepts are simply not developed enough which makes the defense seem like it's overreaching to make tenuous connections where there really are none.
These debates cross THREE threads. If it was so obvious that the ST was amazing, why have we all been debating it for the last four years across more than one discussion?
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Master Boda
Sr Member
IMO that’s the thing,1-6 was all GL.Books,video games etc.. were called EU due to other people’s interpretation of SW.With SW now the new movies are for the most part written by different people’s interpretations making it EU with no one solid vision of SW.LOL made sense in my head.
Well the concepts are so open ended that they could be interpreted in so many ways. That's part of why the trilogy was such a colossal hit because everyone inferred their own meaning to the movies.
At this point in the life of the franchise it's total nonsense to claim that there is one cohesive vision for the series. That may be the attempt, but it's clear that it's not so by its execution.
At this point in the life of the franchise it's total nonsense to claim that there is one cohesive vision for the series. That may be the attempt, but it's clear that it's not so by its execution.
Admittedly, I never noticed her using a staff form in the duel. I'm even having a hard time imagining it but I'll definitely watch it again and look for it. Thanks for pointing it out.
I'm not a martial arts or sword fighting expert but I've read and watched enough on the subject to have learned that being proficient with a staff doesn't necessarily make you proficient with a sword (or in this case a sword made of plasma) and vice versa. I'm sure it could lend to it but I doubt it could enable you to take on someone like Kylo who surely must be a highly capable swordsman at this point. Up until now, she's only fought thugs on Jakku. I'm not sure that's enough to prepare you to take on a Sith Lord (I know he's not officially a Sith but for all intents and purposes...) albeit an injured one.
I assumed that she had absorbed some knowledge during the mind probe but that's the issue for me. She's gained knowledge and ability without having to work for it. I don't dispute that's what opened her up to the force, I just don't like it as a concept.
As for her flying ability, I don't have an issue with her being able to fly the Falcon. My issue is how well she flies it. I would reword your Honda:Ford analogy like this:
If you're used to driving a Honda Civic but then jumped in a race car. Sure you could drive it but you wouldn't be able to compete in the Indy 500.
I could absolutely see her flying the Falcon but to do so in such an incredible way on her first time flying it seemed like a big stretch. And then lining up that shot for Finn. By the way, I think that was a missed opportunity for Finn. Rather than make him so bumbling, write him as a battle hardened storm trooper and it's his combat skills and not Rey's piloting skills that save them. That would've strengthened Rey's trust in Finn to help her.
Excuse me. I meant speaking to droids and Wookies by using the force. My apologies. I should've made that clearer. Surely Han was able to understand Chewie as was Obi-Wan. With Rey, I could see her being able to talk to droids by nature of her being a scavenger and most likely working on or with droids (although shouldn't that mean that Luke can understand droids also?) But isn't it implied that she's able to understand Chewie because of the force? Maybe I misinterpreted it but I saw Finn's amazement that she could talk to Chewie as an indication that she was using the force.
(Sorry for the accidental post above. I figured I'd just repost instead of editing that one)
Joek3rr
Master Member
So I've done some studying into western martial arts, and the staff or spear is the weapon that all students start out on.
Does it mean your going to pick up sword (or in this case a lightsaber) be an expert? No. But when you add in a magical power that controls people into the equation. Anything can happen. Also don't forget that Finn adapted his melee training for use with the lightsaber. As does Pre Vizsla.
And as Inquisitor Peregrinus said, the films show her using the same fighting techniques for both staff and lightsaber. Just watch that scene in TLJ when she's training in front of that rock.
Also really subtle, but when Rey and Ben had their mental connection, not only did Rey subconsciously learn some of Ben's Force training. But Ben got some of her staff skills. As Ben uses nearly the exact same fighting techniques against his uncle.
Joek3rr
Master Member
Again, we've seen toddlers with zero training useing the Force.
robn1
Master Member
Which one of those toddlers defeated a Sith lord?
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