Rebels Freddie Prinze Jr. Star Wars rant

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HeartBlade

Active Member
Yeah FPJ is entitled to his own opinion but his facts aren’t accurate

Balance in the force is removing the toxicity of the dark side from the force. The balance of equal light and dark is completely wrong. And this isn’t me saying this but George Lucas.


Regarding its a movie for kids, yes but that doesn’t mean the story can be stupid or nonsensical. Star Wars followed the hero with a thousand faces storyline with influence from Rashomon which certainly isn’t a kids movie.
 

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HeartBlade

Active Member
Regarding Rey, I agree with Joker that it makes sense that she can talk to droids, has some fighting skills, is good at flying and is tech-savy but not if she is not a skywalker. These are traits found in the skywalker family (Luke was gifted in flying as was Anakin and it’s not a Jedi thing because Obi was certainly wasn’t a gifted flyer compared to Jango Fett).

However, her use of the force is absurd. In TFA, she uses force persuasion, summons the saber from a far distance (overpowering Kylo’s pull), and resists mind control from Kylo, a proficient force user. The good thing about TFA is Rey’s background is left a mystery so that built interest for episode 8. These are highly proficient force skills.

In comparison, Luke summoned his saber to his hand in episode V which was a much shorter distance away and was not struggling with another force user. He doesn’t gain force persuasion until episode 6 which is used to display his mastery over the force and how far he has grown in the time period. This is also the son of Anakin Skywalker, the One who is the most gifted with the force with power to overwhelm every force user before him since he was born from the force as a messaic figure.

The reveal that Rey is nobody is this a huge contradiction. If she is a nobody, why is she so powerful in the force (it’s implied from the prequels that genetics plays a role in force sensitivity). If she has no prior training, why is she so strong that she puts every prequel Jedi except Masters to shame? She gets absolutely no training from Luke (just some meditation) and she can lift multiple boulders?

For reference, Grand Master Yoda (one of the most powerful Jedi ever) struggled to lift a single stone pillar in episode 2 and push back a single senate platform in episode 3.


Rey at the end of 8 with minimal training is able to lift multiple huge boulders, a single one being bigger than the pillar Grand Master Yoda needed full concentration to lift.


Nevermind the fact that by Lucas’ definition of balance, Rey being powerful to meet Kylo and Snoke doesn’t make sense. Luke never got powerful enough to equal both Vader and Palpatine. It was Anakin redeeming himself to save his son and kill the emperor that brought balance to the force by ending the existence of dark side users. Ofcourse, this needed to be retconned for 7 to take place I guess.
 

Sluis Van Shipyards

Master Member
Yeah FPJ is entitled to his own opinion but his facts aren’t accurate

Balance in the force is removing the toxicity of the dark side from the force. The balance of equal light and dark is completely wrong. And this isn’t me saying this but George Lucas.
I've been beating that horse for years and no one listens. Everyone already had their ideas of how the Force works before Lucas tried to tell them.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Yeah FPJ is entitled to his own opinion but his facts aren’t accurate

Balance in the force is removing the toxicity of the dark side from the force. The balance of equal light and dark is completely wrong. And this isn’t me saying this but George Lucas.


Regarding its a movie for kids, yes but that doesn’t mean the story can be stupid or nonsensical. Star Wars followed the hero with a thousand faces storyline with influence from Rashomon which certainly isn’t a kids movie.
The Sith are the ones making the Force out of balance. And that's because they embrace the Dark, and only the Dark. Balance is both Light and Dark. I mean George was not subtle about that in The Clone Wars.

"The overriding philosophy in Episode I—and in all the Star Wars movies, for that matter—is the balance between good and evil." -George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999

"In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything." -George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 2002

"The idea of positive and negative, that there are two sides to an entity, a push and a pull, a yin and a yang, and the struggle between the two sides are issues of nature that I wanted to include in the film." -George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays

"The Force has two sides - [Light and Dark]. It is not a[n inherently] malevolent or a benevolent thing. It has a bad side to it, involving hate and fear, and it has a good side, involving love, charity, fairness and hope." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 1980

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation. Right from the very beginning, that was the key issue in Star Wars." -George Lucas, Times Magazine, 2002

"So the idea of temptation is one of the things we struggle against, and the temptation obviously is the temptation to go to the dark side. One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side.

They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on.

But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader, which is exactly what Vader was trying to do, and that's exactly what the Emperor was trying to do. The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor.

And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies." -George Lucas, TIME magazine, April 26, 1999

"It is only here that I can control them. A family in balance. The light and the dark. Day with night. Destruction, replaced by creation...Too much light or dark would be the undoing of life as you understand it." - The Father
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Regarding Rey, I agree with Joker that it makes sense that she can talk to droids, has some fighting skills, is good at flying and is tech-savy but not if she is not a skywalker. These are traits found in the skywalker family (Luke was gifted in flying as was Anakin and it’s not a Jedi thing because Obi was certainly wasn’t a gifted flyer compared to Jango Fett).

However, her use of the force is absurd. In TFA, she uses force persuasion, summons the saber from a far distance (overpowering Kylo’s pull), and resists mind control from Kylo, a proficient force user. The good thing about TFA is Rey’s background is left a mystery so that built interest for episode 8. These are highly proficient force skills.

In comparison, Luke summoned his saber to his hand in episode V which was a much shorter distance away and was not struggling with another force user. He doesn’t gain force persuasion until episode 6 which is used to display his mastery over the force and how far he has grown in the time period. This is also the son of Anakin Skywalker, the One who is the most gifted with the force with power to overwhelm every force user before him since he was born from the force as a messaic figure.

The reveal that Rey is nobody is this a huge contradiction. If she is a nobody, why is she so powerful in the force (it’s implied from the prequels that genetics plays a role in force sensitivity). If she has no prior training, why is she so strong that she puts every prequel Jedi except Masters to shame? She gets absolutely no training from Luke (just some meditation) and she can lift multiple boulders?

For reference, Grand Master Yoda (one of the most powerful Jedi ever) struggled to lift a single stone pillar in episode 2 and push back a single senate platform in episode 3.


Rey at the end of 8 with minimal training is able to lift multiple huge boulders, a single one being bigger than the pillar Grand Master Yoda needed full concentration to lift.


Nevermind the fact that by Lucas’ definition of balance, Rey being powerful to meet Kylo and Snoke doesn’t make sense. Luke never got powerful enough to equal both Vader and Palpatine. It was Anakin redeeming himself to save his son and kill the emperor that brought balance to the force by ending the existence of dark side users. Ofcourse, this needed to be retconned for 7 to take place I guess.
You forget that Ben is wounded, emotionally and physically. (Plus the saber had literally called to her, so of course it's going to go to her) But if you recall TLJ gives a rematch, and what happens?
7e2c827be6d566bcac907fd5849df65e.gif


And again, we've little kids using telekinesis, with zero training whatsoever. And Rey, is able to influence the Stormtrooper's mind, because she's been mind probed with the Force twice, and the second time she realized she could fight back. So she knows she can mess with minds.

In both cases with Yoda, it's during a duel, so he's wearing out. Plus as Mace said the Jedi's ability to use the Force had diminished. They were losing their connection to the Force.

And in Luke's case, it's clearly stated why he's having trouble. He doesn't believe. Simple as that. It's not more training that he needs. He just needs to let go and believe in the Force. Rey lifting a bunch of rocks goes back to Yoda's statement that "size matters not." And size doesn't matter. If Rey can lift one rock, then she can lift thousands.

 

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Ron

Well-Known Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Remember when Yoda told Luke the path to the dark side was easier? The obvious implication being that the path to the light side was not as easily taken. Well, what Rey did pretty much tossed all that out the window. No struggle, no hardship, and no sacrifice to achieve her power.
 

cboath

Master Member
Again, Luke struggled to pull the saber from like 6 feet away with no one fighting him. He had to stop, calm himself, and give it his all to pull the damn thing to him.

I don't care if Kylo was shot, he knew what he was doing, she did not. She wasn't even aware of those abilities mere hours (24?) prior to that and she pulls it literally more than 10x as far while someone else who knows exactly what they're doing fails. Just no.

Even if the second instance is 2 weeks later, Kylo is healed and pretty much full strength. He's got years of training her, pretty much none, and she's equal to him in that? Again, no.

As for little kids doing it with no training, we've seen 1, the kid at the end of 8. So, doesn't really factor in to the argument that it's wrong aside from the fact they consistently got that wrong.

And as for 'she had fighting skills'. Come on. Finn was in the strormtrooper program pretty much his entire life. You can't tell me that training was all marching in formation. If you're a 'troop' of any kind, you're taught tactics, weapons, and melee fighting. He looked utterly clueless out there and got his ass handed to him. In no way should rey's fighting skills have outmatched a life long trained stormtrooper's to that level.

I like rey. But you can't argue she's been given way too much too fast based on what we know. She's showing, basically, mastery of using the force a matter of a few days after leaning she's capable of doing using it at all. TFA takes place over a couple days or so, TLJ picks up right after and takes another couple days. So, a week. Mastery in a week. Luke, on the other hand, made use of it a bit in ANH, worked on his own for over a year or two and could barely budge a saber. Tranined for substantially longer with yoda than the day Rey spent with luke, went to face vader and got hammered. Trained for another year plus before going back and holding his own.

Regardless of the situation, Luke had more training BY FAR, and years to work on it to get to the level Rey seems to be at after 5 days. And you want to say that's completely acceptable based one what we know?

Could there be an actual explanation for it? Sure. Flat out ignoring it the first two movies though is bad story telling at best and incompetence at worst.

Look at Harry Potter. It was flat out stated from the get go he was able to do things he shouldn't and people weren't exactly sure why. They put it out there. It wasn't til well down the road you go the explanation. But it was acknowledged from book 1.

I don't think there was much if any acknowledgement of that fact in the ST to this point.
 

HeartBlade

Active Member
I take anything from the clone wars with a grain of salt to be honest. Lucas did play loose with who can adapt Star Wars and the balance of light and dark was really introduced in the clone wars, paving the way for ideas like grey Jedi. The Force is the force and the dark side is it’s more seductive side, promising easy power.
 

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HeartBlade

Active Member
You forget that Ben is wounded, emotionally and physically. (Plus the saber had literally called to her, so of course it's going to go to her) But if you recall TLJ gives a rematch, and what happens?
View attachment 1075046

And again, we've little kids using telekinesis, with zero training whatsoever. And Rey, is able to influence the Stormtrooper's mind, because she's been mind probed with the Force twice, and the second time she realized she could fight back. So she knows she can mess with minds.

In both cases with Yoda, it's during a duel, so he's wearing out. Plus as Mace said the Jedi's ability to use the Force had diminished. They were losing their connection to the Force.

And in Luke's case, it's clearly stated why he's having trouble. He doesn't believe. Simple as that. It's not more training that he needs. He just needs to let go and believe in the Force. Rey lifting a bunch of rocks goes back to Yoda's statement that "size matters not." And size doesn't matter. If Rey can lift one rock, then she can lift thousands.

I agree and am fine with the fact that Kylo lost the first fight in TFA. He is injured by the crossbow and overconfident (a Sith flaw). Losing also makes narrative sense. The lightsaber calling to Rey is honestly stupid (the lightsaber is an object without sentience) but would have made sense if they followed up with it in 8. Also makes the reveal that Rey is nobody even worse.

The only little kid with no we see using telekinesis is in 8 and RJ admitted he doesn’t understand Star Wars. Even Anakin in episode I didn’t show telekinetic use of the force despite being the one so some rando kid being able to do so without training is stupid.

And belief is a weak argument. We have seen Jedi and Sith over 6 movies, Jedi and Sith who trained since they were children in the mysticism and strength of the force, surrounded by adults and teachers who are also almost fanatic believers of the force. You are telling me that a teenage Rey who has learned about the force and that she can use it a year ago, has minimal training, and is a regular level Jedi (no the one or skywalker lineage) believes in the force more than any other Sith and Jedi and thus has shown an unprecedented proficiency?

The she experienced force probe twice so she can do it is also some anime genius bs. That’s the equivalent of saying I experienced riding a bike sitting on the backseat. I can now ride a bike.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Again, Luke struggled to pull the saber from like 6 feet away with no one fighting him. He had to stop, calm himself, and give it his all to pull the damn thing to him.

I don't care if Kylo was shot, he knew what he was doing, she did not. She wasn't even aware of those abilities mere hours (24?) prior to that and she pulls it literally more than 10x as far while someone else who knows exactly what they're doing fails. Just no.

Even if the second instance is 2 weeks later, Kylo is healed and pretty much full strength. He's got years of training her, pretty much none, and she's equal to him in that? Again, no.

As for little kids doing it with no training, we've seen 1, the kid at the end of 8. So, doesn't really factor in to the argument that it's wrong aside from the fact they consistently got that wrong.

And as for 'she had fighting skills'. Come on. Finn was in the strormtrooper program pretty much his entire life. You can't tell me that training was all marching in formation. If you're a 'troop' of any kind, you're taught tactics, weapons, and melee fighting. He looked utterly clueless out there and got his ass handed to him. In no way should rey's fighting skills have outmatched a life long trained stormtrooper's to that level.

I like rey. But you can't argue she's been given way too much too fast based on what we know. She's showing, basically, mastery of using the force a matter of a few days after leaning she's capable of doing using it at all. TFA takes place over a couple days or so, TLJ picks up right after and takes another couple days. So, a week. Mastery in a week. Luke, on the other hand, made use of it a bit in ANH, worked on his own for over a year or two and could barely budge a saber. Tranined for substantially longer with yoda than the day Rey spent with luke, went to face vader and got hammered. Trained for another year plus before going back and holding his own.

Regardless of the situation, Luke had more training BY FAR, and years to work on it to get to the level Rey seems to be at after 5 days. And you want to say that's completely acceptable based one what we know?

Could there be an actual explanation for it? Sure. Flat out ignoring it the first two movies though is bad story telling at best and incompetence at worst.

Look at Harry Potter. It was flat out stated from the get go he was able to do things he shouldn't and people weren't exactly sure why. They put it out there. It wasn't til well down the road you go the explanation. But it was acknowledged from book 1.

I don't think there was much if any acknowledgement of that fact in the ST to this point.
I agree and am fine with the fact that Kylo lost the first fight in TFA. He is injured by the crossbow and overconfident (a Sith flaw). Losing also makes narrative sense. The lightsaber calling to Rey is honestly stupid (the lightsaber is an object without sentience) but would have made sense if they followed up with it in 8. Also makes the reveal that Rey is nobody even worse.

The only little kid with no we see using telekinesis is in 8 and RJ admitted he doesn’t understand Star Wars. Even Anakin in episode I didn’t show telekinetic use of the force despite being the one so some rando kid being able to do so without training is stupid.

And belief is a weak argument. We have seen Jedi and Sith over 6 movies, Jedi and Sith who trained since they were children in the mysticism and strength of the force, surrounded by adults and teachers who are also almost fanatic believers of the force. You are telling me that a teenage Rey who has learned about the force and that she can use it a year ago, has minimal training, and is a regular level Jedi (no the one or skywalker lineage) believes in the force more than any other Sith and Jedi and thus has shown an unprecedented proficiency?

The she experienced force probe twice so she can do it is also some anime genius bs. That’s the equivalent of saying I experienced riding a bike sitting on the backseat. I can now ride a bike.
I'm sorry but I believe your understanding of the Force is completely wrong. I belive you've game-ified it. The Force isn't about moving objects or influencing minds. Those are side effects, if you will, of the Force. The Force is way of seeing, thinking, living, breathing, existing. It's connecting, feeling, the Force of others that flows through and connects all living things together.

You'll notice, that in all the films or The Clone Wars. No one is ever taught how to, lift objects, or affect minds. Rather everything is about developing a connection with the Force. That's how Yoda does it with Luke. He doesn't try to deepen his connection with the Force so Luke can lift things. He has Luke lift things so the connection can deepen. Because he is forced to let go his conscious self and feel the Force around him, in order to lift things. We see though that some innately have a higher awareness of the Force then others. Which is something that George mentioned in 77.(Rey, the toddler in The Clone Wars, "broom boy) And that it's easier, almost second nature to have that connection with the Force.

"The Force is really a way of seeing; it’s a way of being with life... The Force gives you the power to have extra-sensory perception and to be able to see things and hear things, read minds and levitate things... The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get..." - George Lucas (notice that last line, about the Force being a perception of reality. In a sense, the third eye is opened)

"The Force is not a power you have. It's not about lifting rocks. It's the energy between all things, a tension, a balance, that binds the universe together." - Luke Skywalker

"Something inside me has always been there now it's awake." - Rey(this is one of the most important lines about Rey's relationship with the Force. Along with Maz's, "the light it's always been there." It shows that she's had a innate awareness of the Force. The only others to exhibit something similar, is broom boy, and that toddler in The Clone Wars.)

And this is what we see in the films. When Luke is in the Wampa cave. He struggles to reach his lightsaber.(he's just been attacked by the Wampa, is hanging upside down, and has been unconscious for a long while) What does Luke do? He doesn't strain and struggle, he closes his eyes, calms himself, centers himself, let's go his conscious self, and opens up to the Force. And *whoosh* the saber comes to his hand. (Also note the Force theme being played)

But when he fails to lift the X-Wing. He doesn't do that. He tries to lift the X-Wing, himself. Rather then working in tandem with the Force. He doesn't open up to the Force. His doubts are too great. He's sees how physical large and heavy the ship is. But Yoda tries to correct thinking so he can see things differently. He tells him "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." Goes back to Obi-Wan's line "your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them." (Also note the Force theme isn't played)

Later though when he calls for help from Leia. He does something similar, he closes his eyes, centers himself, and calls out. (Wait who taught him telepathy was a thing? Oh and notice the Force theme is played again)

Now with Rey admittedly there is a certain amount of mystery to her about her power, as seen from her reaction to useing the Force, Ben's reaction, and Snoke's reactions. But at the same time it's very consistent with everything we've seen. There's a calming, a centering, an opening of the "third eye", if you will. The Force theme is heard, indicating that the Force is actively at work. And things happen. Rey doesn't need to be taught how to use telekinesis or mind trick, those things will just come instinctively to someone who is open and connected to the Force.

Additionally there's a problem with game-ifing the Force. Because if Ben is so much powerful then Rey, because he's had all this training. How come when he reaches for the Skywalker lightsaber, it refuses to come to him? It just shakes and rattles in the snow. But it leaps to Rey's hand? Someone with zero training. Something else is going on. (Some Excalibur symbolism going on too by the way)

Anywho, just some food for thought. Sorry it turned out so long. I didn't originally intend for that, it just kinda happened :p
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
No one is questioning her connection to the Force.

We question the ease with which she uses it as opposed to Luke who took three films and several years to learn how to use it and she has far surpassed him in the span of days.

The only reason we compare her to Luke is to illustrate how it was executed better as a story with him.
 

The Brahma Bull

Active Member
Rey sucks. This trilogy sucks and I can't wait for it to be over already. Moreover I can't wait for people like Freddy to shut their mouths and stop with this labeling nonsense.
Amen brother.

I hate that the first and nearly only defense they came up with was the one with people think the ST sucks are sexist. Rey is a horrible character, so is Holdo, Tico, Fin, this round trashcan replacing R2 etc. There's one character with a bit of depth and that is Kylo Ren. And even he's not a good character. The disrepect towards the OT just is the peak of the iceberg why this whole trilogy sucks.
 

jhazard

Well-Known Member
"You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get..." - George

"Something inside me has always been there now it's awake."

You don't see a contradiction between "it's not something you just get" and "something inside me has always been there..."?

Because I see a contradiction.

"Who taught him telepathy was a thing?"

Likely, Yoda did. Luke received a lot of training off screen that we were not privy to. Yoda taught him to envision the future, telepathy isn't much of a reach from that.

Key things - you don't just get the force (except Rey did) and Luke received training, where Rey did not.

And broom boy, imo was an answer to a question nobody asked. He just demonstrates that force sensitive beings exist outside the Skywalker bloodline (In effort to reinforce Rey's uncanny ability.) Thing is, this has always been a thing. Proven by all the Jedi and younglings in the PT who were not Skywalkers.

What's strange to me, is I have much less a problem with the kid summoning a broom from a meter away than I do with Rey winning the force tug of war (twice) with Anakin's saber ;)
 

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Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
To me quoting George is a useless defense for your argument because he changes his mind all the time regardless of whether you love or hate the ST. Plus his ideas are irrelevant anyway as related to the ST because he didn't write those scripts. Using general concepts from a treatment he wrote is also a weak defense too because those things change constantly through out the writing process.
 
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Cephus

Sr Member
Amen brother.

I hate that the first and nearly only defense they came up with was the one with people think the ST sucks are sexist. Rey is a horrible character, so is Holdo, Tico, Fin, this round trashcan replacing R2 etc. There's one character with a bit of depth and that is Kylo Ren. And even he's not a good character. The disrepect towards the OT just is the peak of the iceberg why this whole trilogy sucks.
Of course they do. These people have no rational answers, when you don't like what they do, they scream and call you names like little children. That's the nature of modern discourse. It's really pathetic.
 

Axlotl

Master Member
To me quoting George is a useless argument because he changes his mind all the time.
He also doesn't understand Star Wars, or at least the appeal of Star Wars.

OT protagonist: Luke Skywalker = Everyman. Life lessons: You can accomplish almost anything if you believe that you can, and put in the work to make it happen. Love trumps hate, but remember: you are your own worst enemy.

PT protagonist: Anakin Skywalker = Space Jesus. Life lessons: You will never be a jedi, because you don't have midiclorians. It doesn't matter how hard you try, you're not special, lol. Good news, though, if you're a total creep: girls LOVE total creeps.
 
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Joek3rr

Sr Member
"You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get..." - George

"Something inside me has always been there now it's awake."

You don't see a contradiction between "it's not something you just get" and "something inside me has always been there..."?

Because I see a contradiction.

"Who taught him telepathy was a thing?"

Likely, Yoda did. Luke received a lot of training off screen that we were not privy to. Yoda taught him to envision the future, telepathy isn't much of a reach from that.

Key things - you don't just get the force (except Rey did) and Luke received training, where Rey did not.

And broom boy, imo was an answer to a question nobody asked. He just demonstrates that force sensitive beings exist outside the Skywalker bloodline (In effort to reinforce Rey's uncanny ability.) Thing is, this has always been a thing. Proven by all the Jedi and younglings in the PT who were not Skywalkers.

What's strange to me, is I have much less a problem with the kid summoning a broom from a meter away than I do with Rey winning the force tug of war (twice) with Anakin's saber ;)
"It is said that certain creatures are born with a higher awareness of the Force than humans. Their brains are different." - George Lucas
In the 90s George added that this because of midi-chlorians. So it wasn't just limited to aliens. But humans, could be born with a higher awareness of the Force. (Like Anakin)

That toddler seen in the Clone Wars, could say something similar to Rey. That it's always known about something inside it.

He received training off screen? Wouldn't that be called poor film making? ;) I mean that's not mentioned anywhere.

This first time wasn't a tug of war. The saber just didn't come to Ben. It just sat in the snow shaking. And the second time, she didn't win, or the saber wouldn't have ripped in two.:)
 

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