Rebels Freddie Prinze Jr. Star Wars rant

Which one of those toddlers defeated a Sith lord?
And Rey didn't defeat a Sith Lord either. She defeated a "child in a mask." Who had just killed his father, trying to prove his strength.
"I killed Han Solo. When the moment came I didn't hesitate."
"And look at you, the deed split your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced... Bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber! You failed!"
 
So I've done some studying into western martial arts, and the staff or spear is the weapon that all students start out on.
Does it mean your going to pick up sword (or in this case a lightsaber) be an expert? No. But when you add in a magical power that controls people into the equation. Anything can happen. Also don't forget that Finn adapted his melee training for use with the lightsaber. As does Pre Vizsla.

And as Inquisitor Peregrinus said, the films show her using the same fighting techniques for both staff and lightsaber. Just watch that scene in TLJ when she's training in front of that rock.

Also really subtle, but when Rey and Ben had their mental connection, not only did Rey subconsciously learn some of Ben's Force training. But Ben got some of her staff skills. As Ben uses nearly the exact same fighting techniques against his uncle.
I watched both fights again. The only staff form I could detect from Rey was at one point she holds the lightsaber in a reverse grip with both hands and takes a few shots at Kylo. I time stamped it...

And Kylo vs Luke in the very beginning where he uses a reverse grip...

Is this what you guys are talking about? Reverse grips or a "dagger grip" on swords is not a practical technique as it generally leaves you wide open for a counter attack. It shouldn't have helped Rey at all. But it's a movie and it looks cool and I think that's all they were going for. I love subtle imagery in film but I'm not sure this crew thought that hard about it. You might be finding more depth in those fights than is actually meant to be there.
 
I watched both fights again. The only staff form I could detect from Rey was at one point she holds the lightsaber in a reverse grip with both hands and takes a few shots at Kylo. I time stamped it...

And Kylo vs Luke in the very beginning where he uses a reverse grip...

Is this what you guys are talking about? Reverse grips or a "dagger grip" on swords is not a practical technique as it generally leaves you wide open for a counter attack. It shouldn't have helped Rey at all. But it's a movie and it looks cool and I think that's all they were going for. I love subtle imagery in film but I'm not sure this crew thought that hard about it. You might be finding more depth in those fights than is actually meant to be there.
This is what you want to watch.

Then have a gander at this.
 
I see your post and raise you a Shadiversity :p

I think this is time I use. Star Wars is a film about space wizards for kids. :p ;) Everyone's lightsaber skills are terrible!
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Old Ben could have been killed 3 times over......
 
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After thinking about this for a bit. I think this the bottom line when it comes to Rey her defeat Ben, and her Force Powers.

So some thoughts on Rey defeating Ben.

1. It's all the will of the Force.

2. Ben is at that moment an emotional wreck. And Snoke calls him out on it. "And look at you, the deed split your spirit to the bone. You were unbalanced... Bested by a girl who had never held a lightsaber! You failed!"

3. Ben was just shot by Chewie's bowcaster. By all rights, that should have killed Ben right there.

4. We are assuming that Ben is some masterful swordsman. Even though I don't see any evidence for that. He ended his uncle's temple while he was still an apprentice. Not to mention, how much could his uncle actually teach his students? He didn't get a whole lot of instruction himself. I'd hazard a guess that Rey probably has more experience with melee weapons under her belt then Ben.

5. Rey has experience with melee weapons. And as seen by non-Force sensitives like Finn and Pre Vizsla, having general experience is enough for that person to use a lightsaber without killing themselves.

6. Rey doesn't beat Ben until let's go and lets the Force control her actions, just like Luke during the trench run. The Force is working through her, hence the Force theme being played.

And on Rey using "mind trick"

1. How does she know that the Force can do that? Ben has been trying to influence her mind by giving up what she saw. So she knows that Force can be used to mess with people's minds, from first-hand experience. And the second time Ben tries that on her, she able to push back and touch Ben's mind. So she simply influencing the Stormtrooper's mind like she just experienced doing to Ben.

2. Lifting a bunch of rocks is no problem. Telekinesis is one of the first abilities that manifest in a young Force-sensitives. As I've mentioned before we've seen a toddler and a young child without any training, perform feats of telekinesis. And remember "size matters not", so free of distractions, and if Rey believes it can be done, lifting a couple of tons of rocks, is easy peasy. Now if she had done that while in the midst of duel, I'd be crying foul...... I think ;)
 
"It's all the will of the force".

Then why have movies at all?
If the force is responsible for everything that happens, then the characters in the story have no agency.
There's no need for them to learn or grow, the force will take care of everything for them.
How can I root for them if they're not making decisions and taking action?
How am I supposed to relate to them if they're just puppets on strings, impotent to affect even their own lives, much less the greater story they're involved in?
How do I know who to root for if it's all the will of the force? Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?

It's like Blade Runner Director's Cut all over again.
When Deckard was a human, the movie was a sublime commentary on the human condition, and an existential masterpiece.
When he's a replicant the movie becomes "Oh, two robots are fighting. That's cool, I guess."
 
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"It's all the will of the force".

Then why have movies at all?
If the force is responsible for everything that happens, then the characters in the story have no agency.
There's no need for them to learn or grow, the force will take care of everything for them.
How can I root for them if they're not making decisions and taking action?
How am I supposed to relate to them if they're just puppets on strings, impotent to affect even their own lives, much less the greater story they're involved in?
How do I know who to root for if it's all the will of the force? Who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?

It's like Blade Runner Director's Cut all over again.
When Deckard was a human, the movie was a sublime commentary on the human condition, and an existential masterpiece.
When he's a replicant the movie becomes "Oh, two robots are fighting. That's cool, I guess."
 
My thoughts exactly. I don’t believe in fate or destiny (in the sense of not having control over my own actions or future) in the real world, why should I believe it in a movie? You could have every crazy, unrealistic technology, alien, magic, planet, setting, whatever; but if your story robs the characters of their free will, it’s a bad story. I mean, it’s the whole reason the original trilogy works. It’s a crazy, science fantasy world, with “space wizards” (how I hate that term), and half-baked technology that wouldn’t really ever work, but the characters act like real people would. That’s why Rogue One doesn’t work for me. Jynn Erso doesn’t have any choice in that movie. She makes no hard decisions. When people use the excuse “it’s the will of the Force”, or that the “Force used so-and-so to do such-and-such”, it ruins everything about Star Wars. I personally liked the fight in TFA. It worked for me—she had fighting skill enough to hold her own (and I really don’t think Star Wars is the kind of series where you really need to analyze someone’s fighting style to see if it’s staff-based or not), and the fact that Kylo was injured was enough. From a grand story perspective, I agree that it was a mistake to have her win there—not because she couldn’t have a win, or because she “wouldn’t be able to—but because it showed no foresight by the story creatives on what we had to look forward to in the rest of the trilogy. I liked the fight as a scene, not ultimately as a story beat. It was certainly a lot better than any fight in the prequels, to my taste.

And that’s ultimately what this all comes back to. This “will of the Force” crap came about during the prequels to excuse bad, poorly thought-out writing, and I’m very sad to see it resurface here. I can’t help but think of the Plinkett reviews by Red Letter Media, whenever someone in the prequels says something they shouldn’t know. “How do you know that? Did you read the script? Oh, I guess it’s the will of the Force that (fill in the blank).”

And you can link to as many different sources and videos and articles as you want from George Lucas; you can find documents as far back as 1975 about the Force “controlling people”, and it will NEVER change my mind. If you think that just because Lucas says it’s so will affect me, then there are three films and a cartoon I’d like to introduce you to that mean squat to me. Lucas doesn’t entirely understand the appeal of Star Wars, mostly because half of what makes the OT good didn’t even come from him. Pulling quotes from Papa George and other such “established canon” mean nothing to me.
 
The whole will of the Force aside, you are purposefully diminishing Luke and Kylo and their abilities to suit your argument.

Am I? I'm just not seeing the evidence that supports that Ben is some "fully trained 'Sith'." Maybe if Snoke had said something like 'your the best swordsman in the galaxy, and yet you were beaten by girl who had never held a lightsaber.' We've never seen Ben in one on one duel against another Jedi. The best we've seen is his fight against numerous Praetorians. And he seemed to only fair a little better then Rey.
 
My thoughts exactly. I don’t believe in fate or destiny (in the sense of not having control over my own actions or future) in the real world, why should I believe it in a movie? You could have every crazy, unrealistic technology, alien, magic, planet, setting, whatever; but if your story robs the characters of their free will, it’s a bad story. I mean, it’s the whole reason the original trilogy works. It’s a crazy, science fantasy world, with “space wizards” (how I hate that term), and half-baked technology that wouldn’t really ever work, but the characters act like real people would. That’s why Rogue One doesn’t work for me. Jynn Erso doesn’t have any choice in that movie. She makes no hard decisions. When people use the excuse “it’s the will of the Force”, or that the “Force used so-and-so to do such-and-such”, it ruins everything about Star Wars. I personally liked the fight in TFA. It worked for me—she had fighting skill enough to hold her own (and I really don’t think Star Wars is the kind of series where you really need to analyze someone’s fighting style to see if it’s staff-based or not), and the fact that Kylo was injured was enough. From a grand story perspective, I agree that it was a mistake to have her win there—not because she couldn’t have a win, or because she “wouldn’t be able to—but because it showed no foresight by the story creatives on what we had to look forward to in the rest of the trilogy. I liked the fight as a scene, not ultimately as a story beat. It was certainly a lot better than any fight in the prequels, to my taste.

And that’s ultimately what this all comes back to. This “will of the Force” crap came about during the prequels to excuse bad, poorly thought-out writing, and I’m very sad to see it resurface here. I can’t help but think of the Plinkett reviews by Red Letter Media, whenever someone in the prequels says something they shouldn’t know. “How do you know that? Did you read the script? Oh, I guess it’s the will of the Force that (fill in the blank).”

And you can link to as many different sources and videos and articles as you want from George Lucas; you can find documents as far back as 1975 about the Force “controlling people”, and it will NEVER change my mind. If you think that just because Lucas says it’s so will affect me, then there are three films and a cartoon I’d like to introduce you to that mean squat to me. Lucas doesn’t entirely understand the appeal of Star Wars, mostly because half of what makes the OT good didn’t even come from him. Pulling quotes from Papa George and other such “established canon” mean nothing to me.

Like it or not. Destiny is in Star Wars.
Uh huh. The age old predestination vs free will argument.
You know those are opposite things, right?

Or you can both at the same time.
 
Like it or not. Destiny is in Star Wars.


Or you can both at the same time.

It’s only in Star Wars if you subscribe to the idea that the prequels are canon. No prophecy is mentioned in the OT, no chosen one, and no fake destiny. The only places that word crops up are by the villains, when they try to rob Luke of his freedom by telling him he has no choice, that it’s his “destiny” to join them. It’s like Psab keel keeps saying: Star Wars is a buffet; we take what we like and leave what we don’t. Stories that force the main characters to act on a consistent basis will never be interesting to me, so I’d rather keep those concepts as far away from Star Wars as possible, as I happen to rather like Star Wars. The OT never needed the excuse of “it’s the will of the Force” to explain anything—anything that exists there now is a result of the prequels making unnecessary connections between characters, like having Anakin build C3PO and stuff like that.
 
Since the conversation has moved away from FPJ and his toxic language, can we perhaps move to another thread rather than spreading this constantly recycled conversation across three threads? Maybe take the Mary/Gary stu argument to the TLJ thread? Better yet just use that thread and quote the old posts that made the same points over the last 2 years. We're way off topic here..
 
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