New Elstree Studio documentary with discarded Graflex.

That particular sample of a two-rivet d-ring certainly wouldn’t work. In the available reference images, the clip seems to run parallel to the loop that holds the ring, with the edge curved so as to hug the bottom lip of the flash tube.. Basically, Roy’s setup, but with two rivets instead of one. A long strip of metal with rounded ends that was looped back on itself and riveted to the endcap.

Oh I am very well aware that the presented clip is in no way identical to what would have been used; only in that it is proof that such side-by-side hole mounts do exist in reality and that an older model with two holes in similar configuration could have been used.

Apologies if I didnt clarify that correctly
 
No, you were perfectly clear. It’s just that seeing that particular two-hole bracket makes me think that a found-parts setup like that seems less likely than a handmade bracket. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a two-hole mount which is also shaped like Roy’s single-hole mount.

In proper scientific method tradition, I was being as skeptical as possible when presented with this new, two-rivet theory, but the available data is leaning more and more in the direction of a handmade bracket/two rivets.

If the Elstree saber was indeed production-made (which seems likely), then the only likely variance between it and the hero bracket is the length of metal used to make the clip.
 
Do anyone else see a broken bubble strip in this shot?
broken bubble.jpg
 
It's a trick of the light because the strip is pinched bu the brackets, not slotted in like most replicas.
 
Been thinking about why the clamp lever, is closed and then shown half closed during the filming schedule.

Going off the time line that was linked.

22nd March Sand Crawler scenes shot (does not mention if the scene where he then runs off to the speeder to go home, but it would make sense they shot that too) (Clamp lever open)

April 2nd Mos Eisley exteriors are shot. (Luke getting out of speeder when they arrive. When Luke gets to Mos Eisley with Ben the clamp lever is closed.)

April 22nd. Ben’s cave

The Exactra strip was sandwich inserted, and they seem to have been well aware they could adjust the clamp to fully close it. They adjusted it and closed the lever all the way. In my simulation experiment it shows the whole assembly is loose if this is what they did.


In this experiment I used my Graflex Inc vintage in ESB configuration. I used an Exactra bubble strip with the flat edges I bought loose. It had been slimmed down, but the width was still the same. I adjusted the clamp so it could fully closed on the strip in position. I also compared the width with to my other ones still in the calculator. Both versions, flat and frosted are the same width.

IMG_6775.JPG IMG_6776.JPG

In the next vid I simulated some bounce and twist actions. At first it held together really well, even being loose like that. Then I was shocked. With the right bounce and twist it can quickly come apart. However if you are bouncing and twisting the other direction from the open slots it stays together pretty well.


This may have happened when Luke runs to the Land Speeder at the Sand Crawler scene. The saber is really bouncing all over the place. If it happened it needs to be fixed there and then. So they tightened lever and they try to shut it all the way, but it only goes so far. I now think Luke grabs onto it to in fear of it falling apart. If he was running and grabbed onto it while it was loose, I am pretty sure it could have come apart as well.

In the third experiment I wanted to test if this would actually fix the problem. I made a faux strip to the width of the exactra strip, slightly bigger.

IMG_6780.JPG

I made one revolution of the lever to tighten. The faux card was tight to put between the clamp edges, but it went in. I closed the lever as much as I could, and it matches what we see in the promo shots and on screen. This slight adjustment tightened the bottom assembly right up to my surprise and disbelief. The top is still a little loose. Putting the little top clamp screw in would fix that, also bending the tube tabs out. (Pushing that lever tight was cringy, my poor Vintage ESB being experiment onL)


The Elstree shows both sides of the strip have been chamfered down. This could indicate this was done to fix the fact the lever can’t be closed after that quick fix. Another photo of the toe saber shows that the strip has not been chamfered yet well.

ANH The Saber Bubbles no chamfer edge.jpg

This would mean the toe pic saber promo shots would have to have been taken before Mos Eisley scenes, if they were to use this hero in that scene, which is unlikely.

The toe pic promo shots must have been done after the Sand Crawler dash to the speeder. But there is a missing grip, so they must have repaired that before photos. If the Elstree is the toe pic saber, than there probably should be a spot on one grip that shows extra glue residue because of the replaced grip. However the bubble strip still was not chamfered at this point.

I believe this violent action of the saber bouncing around, has contributed to the flared edges and stress cracks of the aluminium clip. This wear and tear cannot be so easily discarded, as it is consistent with wear and tear of something that has been used. However the clip is not bent back yet if it is the toe pic hero.

Star Wars - A New Hope - Luke Skywalker Lightsaber_clip stress cracks and flared edges15.jpg

After the promo shots it would then have to go to have the strip ground down just enough so the lever can be fully closed. While this one is off, they may have replaced it with another hero. At Mos Eisley the hero has all its grips as opposed to the Sand Crawler run scene. (A different Hero?)

Ben’s cave. I re-watched the scene: ‘When he says: “I can take you as far as…” Seems to be the only spot where the lever might be visible. (Maybe high res 4k) This hero probably is the new one switched, I just can’t tell.

Back to the Hero with the open lever. Vader needs a stunt saber. This would definitely support the bubble strip needs to be ground down a touch so it could be clamped tightly all the way if it is going to be used as a stunt.

Someone is given the task of building it. The Elstree shows a screw missing from the bulb assembly at the front. They probably thought to remove the plastic bulb assembly, but it is not easily removed. They then think quickly to push the washer down on the button and squish the sides to hold it in to weld.

Star Wars - A New Hope - Luke Skywalker Lightsaberzoom_7.jpg

1. Is that a braze tack weld?

2. Is that the rounded edge fall off of the spring loaded contact.?

3. Is that signs of a thread?

Star Wars - A New Hope - Luke Skywalker Lightsaber_36 melted plastic.jpg

looks like melted plastic

If there is no thread, another way I thought of would be to take the bracket off a reflector, modify it, and screw it to a blade so it can clip into the hilt. Or maybe they were just going to weld or thread the blade on, since they only need a stunt, not a hero for Vader? This is more likely.

So this would have been a static stunt, which they eventually went with in ESB. They obviously were not too happy with the complexity of the spinning stunts. Also Vader is heavily costumed, maybe he needed something simpler. The d ring clip at this point could have been pushed back, as to why? I don’t know.

It would appear that the person ran out of time, and it is an unfinished project. Someone probably said: “Don’t worry about finishing that Vader stunt. We will paint the tip black, and use Luke’s stunt as Vader’s?

Engraving on the Elstree clamp bar? The spot where the number would have been engraved is corroded. When engraving the nickel plating it would have cut through to the steel, like an open wound, and help the corrosion process.

There is a thing called the Antikythera device. It is over two thousand years old, but when they CT scanned it they were even able to see engraved glyphs. I really think the clamp bar should be professionally examined. Perhaps a microscope? Better safe than sorry!

Even if there is nothing on it, it does not disqualify the bottom tube. Due to parts swapping. I was told here that the stamping on the bottom is randomly all over. This would be caused by tubes being loaded into a jig to cut the slots perhaps?

The Elstree not only assembles so the clip lines up with the clamp. I can also see a hint of the ‘Graflex’ direction of stamping and angle, that also seems to line up with the Elstree.

As for the two screws between the grips, could they not be on another hero. They baffle me and all I can think of is fishing line and the V2, but why?

That’s my last theory for you all to consider and debunk. Forgive me if I have made lots of mistakes, this is a lot of information to process, and I am not as knowledgeable as most of you here.


Only if we had Deckard’s photo scanner!


“Rebellion is built on hope”
 
I feel like the D-ring brackets on the "Elstree Saber" and the "Toe Pic Saber" are both hand made aluminum brackets. Probably both were made the same way, though, with two attachment rivots. They just don't look "machine made" to me. Like someone cut them out with tin snips, folded it over the d-ring and drilled two holes in them.

- Jim
 
Something that just occurred to me, BOTH the Elstree and the Luke/Vader Shared Stunt are missing the bunny ears, and to the best of my recollection BOTH have the thin-knurl buttons.

Do you think after they bungled whatever failed attempt at converting an actual Graflex into a stunt hilt, they gave the damaged remains to the guys who made the motorized scratch-built hilt and said "Here, make something that looks like this", and they, being unaware of the bunny ears and therefore unable to use a sort of greeblie to approximate them via kit-bashing, just made the stunt hilt pipe body with a plain smooth tip.

That could ALSO explain why the Elstree is missing its grips; they were probably salvaged from it and used in the construction of the stunt hilt, though that would also raise the question as to why they didn't salvage the button, clamp, and bubble strip as well... guess they already had enough of those lying around?

Hmmm....

upload_2019-3-6_12-55-40.png

26.jpg

upload_2019-3-6_12-56-22.png
 
Does anybody know anything about actually using the graflex flash to take pictures?there would be no reason to weld a piece of metal in the top would there?im assuming no,I’ve never seen another like this but the thought did occurred to me that maybe the saber was like that before they got it for Star Wars. I doubt it but I’d like to just make sure to be certain
 
Yeah there is a spring loaded contact that ejects the bulb after use. The Graflex seen in these b&w pictures still has the original stuff with no plate.

ANH The Saber End.jpg

I think the most likely scenario is that they tried to convert the Elstree Graflex into a fighting version and either failed, or just ultimately went the metal tube route and didn't need this. I might have just sat in a box until production wrapped and then was chucked out to where in was found in the mud.
 
Remember, the (initial/Barbican) Vader and Kenobi (V2/V3) stunts were reasonable (albeit less detailed) facsimiles of the hero props. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that they first tried to use a Graflex as a stunt, and then just ended up sticking some parts onto a metal pipe when it didn’t work.
 
Been thinking about why the clamp lever, is closed and then shown half closed during the filming schedule.

Going off the time line that was linked.

22nd March Sand Crawler scenes shot (does not mention if the scene where he then runs off to the speeder to go home, but it would make sense they shot that too) (Clamp lever open)

April 2nd Mos Eisley exteriors are shot. (Luke getting out of speeder when they arrive. When Luke gets to Mos Eisley with Ben the clamp lever is closed.)

April 22nd. Ben’s cave

The Exactra strip was sandwich inserted, and they seem to have been well aware they could adjust the clamp to fully close it. They adjusted it and closed the lever all the way. In my simulation experiment it shows the whole assembly is loose if this is what they did.


In this experiment I used my Graflex Inc vintage in ESB configuration. I used an Exactra bubble strip with the flat edges I bought loose. It had been slimmed down, but the width was still the same. I adjusted the clamp so it could fully closed on the strip in position. I also compared the width with to my other ones still in the calculator. Both versions, flat and frosted are the same width.

View attachment 996828 View attachment 996829

In the next vid I simulated some bounce and twist actions. At first it held together really well, even being loose like that. Then I was shocked. With the right bounce and twist it can quickly come apart. However if you are bouncing and twisting the other direction from the open slots it stays together pretty well.


This may have happened when Luke runs to the Land Speeder at the Sand Crawler scene. The saber is really bouncing all over the place. If it happened it needs to be fixed there and then. So they tightened lever and they try to shut it all the way, but it only goes so far. I now think Luke grabs onto it to in fear of it falling apart. If he was running and grabbed onto it while it was loose, I am pretty sure it could have come apart as well.

In the third experiment I wanted to test if this would actually fix the problem. I made a faux strip to the width of the exactra strip, slightly bigger.

View attachment 996830

I made one revolution of the lever to tighten. The faux card was tight to put between the clamp edges, but it went in. I closed the lever as much as I could, and it matches what we see in the promo shots and on screen. This slight adjustment tightened the bottom assembly right up to my surprise and disbelief. The top is still a little loose. Putting the little top clamp screw in would fix that, also bending the tube tabs out. (Pushing that lever tight was cringy, my poor Vintage ESB being experiment onL)


The Elstree shows both sides of the strip have been chamfered down. This could indicate this was done to fix the fact the lever can’t be closed after that quick fix. Another photo of the toe saber shows that the strip has not been chamfered yet well.

View attachment 996831

This would mean the toe pic saber promo shots would have to have been taken before Mos Eisley scenes, if they were to use this hero in that scene, which is unlikely.

The toe pic promo shots must have been done after the Sand Crawler dash to the speeder. But there is a missing grip, so they must have repaired that before photos. If the Elstree is the toe pic saber, than there probably should be a spot on one grip that shows extra glue residue because of the replaced grip. However the bubble strip still was not chamfered at this point.

I believe this violent action of the saber bouncing around, has contributed to the flared edges and stress cracks of the aluminium clip. This wear and tear cannot be so easily discarded, as it is consistent with wear and tear of something that has been used. However the clip is not bent back yet if it is the toe pic hero.

View attachment 996834

After the promo shots it would then have to go to have the strip ground down just enough so the lever can be fully closed. While this one is off, they may have replaced it with another hero. At Mos Eisley the hero has all its grips as opposed to the Sand Crawler run scene. (A different Hero?)

Ben’s cave. I re-watched the scene: ‘When he says: “I can take you as far as…” Seems to be the only spot where the lever might be visible. (Maybe high res 4k) This hero probably is the new one switched, I just can’t tell.

Back to the Hero with the open lever. Vader needs a stunt saber. This would definitely support the bubble strip needs to be ground down a touch so it could be clamped tightly all the way if it is going to be used as a stunt.

Someone is given the task of building it. The Elstree shows a screw missing from the bulb assembly at the front. They probably thought to remove the plastic bulb assembly, but it is not easily removed. They then think quickly to push the washer down on the button and squish the sides to hold it in to weld.

View attachment 996832

1. Is that a braze tack weld?

2. Is that the rounded edge fall off of the spring loaded contact.?

3. Is that signs of a thread?

View attachment 996833

looks like melted plastic

If there is no thread, another way I thought of would be to take the bracket off a reflector, modify it, and screw it to a blade so it can clip into the hilt. Or maybe they were just going to weld or thread the blade on, since they only need a stunt, not a hero for Vader? This is more likely.

So this would have been a static stunt, which they eventually went with in ESB. They obviously were not too happy with the complexity of the spinning stunts. Also Vader is heavily costumed, maybe he needed something simpler. The d ring clip at this point could have been pushed back, as to why? I don’t know.

It would appear that the person ran out of time, and it is an unfinished project. Someone probably said: “Don’t worry about finishing that Vader stunt. We will paint the tip black, and use Luke’s stunt as Vader’s?

Engraving on the Elstree clamp bar? The spot where the number would have been engraved is corroded. When engraving the nickel plating it would have cut through to the steel, like an open wound, and help the corrosion process.

There is a thing called the Antikythera device. It is over two thousand years old, but when they CT scanned it they were even able to see engraved glyphs. I really think the clamp bar should be professionally examined. Perhaps a microscope? Better safe than sorry!

Even if there is nothing on it, it does not disqualify the bottom tube. Due to parts swapping. I was told here that the stamping on the bottom is randomly all over. This would be caused by tubes being loaded into a jig to cut the slots perhaps?

The Elstree not only assembles so the clip lines up with the clamp. I can also see a hint of the ‘Graflex’ direction of stamping and angle, that also seems to line up with the Elstree.

As for the two screws between the grips, could they not be on another hero. They baffle me and all I can think of is fishing line and the V2, but why?

That’s my last theory for you all to consider and debunk. Forgive me if I have made lots of mistakes, this is a lot of information to process, and I am not as knowledgeable as most of you here.


Only if we had Deckard’s photo scanner!


“Rebellion is built on hope”

Some serious detective work!!
 
Thought I would take a look as to where the missing grip is. I said earlier that if the grip was replaced there should be signs of extra glue. In fact I found the opposite. The spot on the Elstree where I think the missing grip would be has hardly any glue residue.

This in fact is a great thing, it changes the chronology a bit, but makes more sense.

It seems logical with the saber assembly being so loose, they were aware of the problem way before they shot the Sand crawler scene. This was the saber they built to have physical action scenes like running, falling etc.

promo shots taken before the sand crawler scene. All grips are there

The saber never fell apart while running.

Running probably caused the grip to come off.

Grip came off probably because it was the last grip glued down, and there was little glue left in the tube? It never got replaced as there is no sign of it as the spot looks like there is hardly and glue there.

Star Wars - A New Hope - Luke Skywalker Lightsaber minimal glue residue_17.jpg

vlcsnap-2019-03-07-15h42m50s145.jpg

Bubble strip was ground down when it went of to be turned into a stunt.

If all this is correct, it means if the Elstree is the Toe pic saber, it's only screen time was the Sand Crawler scene

Can some one cross reference this in case I have made a mistake of the grip location.
 
I think its a different saber.

1. if that little bit sticking out at the end is the D ring after the rivets. I cannot replicate that in a photo in the toe pic configuration.
2. you can see the tip of the lever, and the angle of the tip does not match if it where open wide to me.

differenther maybe.jpg

IMG_6785.JPG

lever open

IMG_6786.JPG

lever closed parallel to the clamp, not pushed all the way down.

That's what I see. Other people should replicate this to cross check me.

Also I am thinking those rivets or screws my have something to do with a motor, or a different type of D ring assembly.
 
If there are rivets in the side of the Toe Pic saber -- per Gregatron's post, New Elstree Studio documentary with discarded Graflex. and Davy Jones' larger image at New Elstree Studio documentary with discarded Graflex. -- then it can't be the Elstree saber bottom because it doesn't have those holes.

...and it has the wrong red button, and the d-ring clip seems too short, and the prop was found with the clamp in the screenused orientation instead of the post-production publicity photo orientation, and it doesn’t look to have the serial number stamped on the clamp, among other issues.

As for the parts somehow being loose and jiggling around during production, that seems unlikely. Hamill was just holding the prop so it didn’t constantly smack his leg. And I doubt that any hero was chosen to be converted into a stunt. More likely that the Elstree was a failed stunt built in pre-production—separate from the heroes, which were designed and built as heroes—and then they built the pipe FX stunt when it didn’t work out as hoped.
 
Back
Top