New Elstree Studio documentary with discarded Graflex.

[Aison]

In case this was a stunt prop from the beginning, which its not still proved.

We are all working on suppositions.

Do you know if the hole through the washer goes through what's left of the plastic bulb assembly?

Whatever caused that damage on the bottom seems to me it was something much more than a vertical drop. I wonder if it was converted with the intention of being a stunt, and was a failed attempt. The person who made it may have seen it was not going to work very well and lobbed it into a junk pile. That sort of big throw, if it landed on the edge to me would cause that sort of damage on the bottom tube.

 

[CHalcyon82]

Totally sidebar topic, but has anyone ever made a “Finse Saber” variant with the 7 straight ESB style, vs. angled ANH style, grips and NO fasteners?

I've been considering doing so. I got a couple of spare Graflex flashes on-hand that I haven't done jack with.

 

[thd9791]

I've wondered if that hole went through the to the socket, thanks for asking!

 

[Aison]

View attachment 993176

Thanks for posting this pic at such high resolution. A great addition to my collection.

I thought one last thing to do would be to take a look at the stamping to see if it adds any more support to the other D ring experiment. On its own it may be not enough, but I think I can see the 'LE' but more so the direction that 'GRAFLEX' is stamped, which could only be in two direction, and if it were the other direction it would be lower. It seems to match the Elstree stamping direction. I would really like if some others took the image you posted into photo shop and cropped the section and examine it. I cropped and upped the dpi to 600 and adjusted the image size. I then played around with the levels. Everyone has different contrast and brightness set up on their devices. I have adjusted the image to my screen and its contrast setting. I will leave this for more eyes to examine. I am sure someone else looked at this section and proposed it being the 3 or C from memory.

 

[Aison]

Moving onto the clamp. The spot where those numbers are engraved on the elstree is rusted and corroded pretty bad. But I think something is going on there. Especially the two zeroes. If I owned this, I would be going for an x ray or whatever it takes to have it analyzed. Decide for yourselves if I am seeing stuff or not, but this it what I can see.

 

[PrinceZip]

Very cool analysis! I came up with the '3' or 'G' theory in FB groups some time ago, but I think it's likely that was just a photodust. That said, based on the very thin rims on the bottom, I can confidently say that the toe pic saber is of Folmer variant.

 

[Aison]

I started watching ANH, oh the memories of being a kid and watching it I have a question for anyone who has knowledge. Just how much rotoscoping was used in it. I see a lot of black artifacts which seem to be coming from the rotating reflective blade. In ESB it seems they went to a fully rotoscoped static blade. This makes me think about the top half of of the elstree.

Were they thinking of going to a static rotoscope this early on?

I am leaning towards thinking after all the Tunisa scenes they were thinking of experimenting using a static blade, not necessarily for any more new scenes to come, but to the future possibility of a sequel? Or perhaps for the remote scene they were looking to try this but it failed so they stuck with Ol spinny.

The hero/toe pic it likely being the elstree needed some repairs, a new grip, and probably the bubble strip clamp lever not closing to be sorted.

So we get to repairs: Maybe a new grip was glued on? Maybe the bubble strip dremeled down as you can see plastic slag from rotary sanding and cuts in the elstree bubble strip.

Next the whole welding in a washer? Really need to know if the plastic light bulb stuff was removed before welding. If there is a hole bored through it. Or even if there is melted plastic on the plastic bulb assembly which would indicate they did not remove it and just welded the washer in. If the plastic bulb assembly was removed, the button was probably removed as was the eye and the bunny ears.

Welding in the washer deformed the top part, heat marks can still be seen. The bunny ears wont go back in. So in the end it appears it could be a failed attempt of an experiment.

Now the folmer style knurling on the button can be found on this variant? So it probably belongs to it. But in the toe pic they switched the button to the other type, probably because Roger liked it better.

So after this experiment has been botched and failed, they need to make another hero for when we see it later. They take the button out they like, and someone puts the original back in and stores it. After the movie is done. Clean up time. Someone takes it and lobs it into the Elstree studio junkyard. It hits the ground, the bottom tube hits and damages the edge. Any grips the glue shatters and they fly off. The bubble strip cracks and loses that little section? This seems logical, yet just a theory.

 

[Gregatron]

Very cool analysis! I came up with the '3' or 'G' theory in FB groups some time ago, but I think it's likely that was just a photodust. That said, based on the very thin rims on the bottom, I can confidently say that the toe pic saber is of Folmer variant.

It’s interesting to note that both the ANH and ESB heroes (except for the ESB “Ranch” version, which appears to be a Frankensaber that has the stepped brass pins of later Graflex models) all pretty much seem to be based on early Folmers, but someone must have decided to swap out the thin-knurl buttons (which ended up on stunt sabers in both films) for the later-model, full-knurl buttons, presumably as an aesthetic choice. It’s even more amazing that the ESB heroes had TWO full-knurled buttons each.

There’s no way that the production acquired a bunch of Graflexes which already had their Folmer buttons swapped out for some reason, and so it had to have been a deliberate creative decision which trickled down to (presumably) all of the hero props in both films for the sake of consistency.

 

[kurtyboy]

There is rotoscoping all over Luke and Ben's blades where the reflective effect didn't look as good as expected. None on Vader's though.

 

[indignate]

Some photos if you want to analize about the theory of the tradition of swapping out parts. Here you see a costume test by John Mollo, with top half of a graflex in the belt. Where is the other half? into the final prop maybe?

Another one of Michael Ford, in ESB, again only the top part of a graflex.

 

[Aison]

Just finished watching ANH theatrical SE. The last appearance of the hero seems to be after the remote scene is done. I remember seeing a pic after Ben's death on the Falcon where Luke has a hero. Am I wrong, is there deleted footage. Some one earlier posted the last scene of the saber was when Luke was buckling down at the holo board. Is that when Leia come to comfort him?

How many Heroes have been proven in ANH to have had screen time?

This being the first movie did they really have lots of Hero sabers? I thinking 2 now and a spinning stunt.

If the Elstree is a Hero and it got rejected after a failed experiment just before the remote scene, that would explain a second hero replacement. I find it odd that after the remote scene we don't really see it anymore for the rest of the theatrical release of the movie?

Can anyone fill me in on that. And if that photo does exist of after Ben death at the holo board showing the saber can someone link me to it. I really thought I had a copy of something like that. Cheers.

 

[Aison]

There is rotoscoping all over Luke and Ben's blades where the reflective effect didn't look as good as expected. None on Vader's though.

Luke at the cave and the remote it looks mostly to be the spinning blade technique, but at the end of the movie I really noticed the difference on Ben's blade. But Being the SE it probably has been messed with, don't know how reliable that is. I do have some restored theatrical releases I may have to re-watch that.

 

[Gregatron]

I started watching ANH, oh the memories of being a kid and watching it I have a question for anyone who has knowledge. Just how much rotoscoping was used in it. I see a lot of black artifacts which seem to be coming from the rotating reflective blade. In ESB it seems they went to a fully rotoscoped static blade. This makes me think about the top half of of the elstree.

Were they thinking of going to a static rotoscope this early on?

I am leaning towards thinking after all the Tunisa scenes they were thinking of experimenting using a static blade, not necessarily for any more new scenes to come, but to the future possibility of a sequel? Or perhaps for the remote scene they were looking to try this but it failed so they stuck with Ol spinny.

The hero/toe pic it likely being the elstree needed some repairs, a new grip, and probably the bubble strip clamp lever not closing to be sorted.

So we get to repairs: Maybe a new grip was glued on? Maybe the bubble strip dremeled down as you can see plastic slag from rotary sanding and cuts in the elstree bubble strip.

Next the whole welding in a washer? Really need to know if the plastic light bulb stuff was removed before welding. If there is a hole bored through it. Or even if there is melted plastic on the plastic bulb assembly which would indicate they did not remove it and just welded the washer in. If the plastic bulb assembly was removed, the button was probably removed as was the eye and the bunny ears.

Welding in the washer deformed the top part, heat marks can still be seen. The bunny ears wont go back in. So in the end it appears it could be a failed attempt of an experiment.

Now the folmer style knurling on the button can be found on this variant? So it probably belongs to it. But in the toe pic they switched the button to the other type, probably because Roger liked it better.

So after this experiment has been botched and failed, they need to make another hero for when we see it later. They take the button out they like, and someone puts the original back in and stores it. After the movie is done. Clean up time. Someone takes it and lobs it into the Elstree studio junkyard. It hits the ground, the bottom tube hits and damages the edge. Any grips the glue shatters and they fly off. The bubble strip cracks and loses that little section? This seems logical, yet just a theory.

As the story goes, the initial, on-set effect of the spinning blade was deemed insufficient (perhaps due to those black artifacts from the rotating pole), and so they rotoscoped in the blades. There are indeed a few shots where the black artifacts seem through, and I can only chalk that up to a lighting/exposure issue when repjotographing the animation and the background plates together. A transparency problem which most of the animated saber shots managed to avoid.

Then, for ESB and ROTJ, they did indeed fully switch over to rotoscoping over static blades, since the on-set effect had already proved unfeasible, and the fight choreography was going to much more intense. One of the reasons that the ANH fight is relatively slow and lackluster (at least when compared to later fights) is because the motorized, spinning blades were fragile. The editing clearly tries to speed the fight up and give it more energy than it would have had on-set.

I HIGHLY doubt that the Elstree saber was some kind of attempt to think forward to the needs of sequels. Remember, no one thought ANH was gonna be a huge success, and the prospect of a theatrical sequel was low. I think the most likely possibility is that the Elstree saber started out as a prototype FX saber, but was abandoned for one reason or another. Remember, ONE FX saber prop stood in for both Luke and Vader’s onscreen sabers. Evidence indicates that the initial attempt at a Vader FX saber failed, and so they just repainted the tip of the existing Luke FX saber black, and used that, instead. Perhaps there were inherent problems trying to use actual flashguns for the FX hilts (unlike the Kenobi stunts, which were solidly cast and machined to resemble the hero prop), and so they just dressed up metal pipes to resemble the heroes.

I still think there’s no chance that the Elstree is an onscreen hero. An unused backup or hero at best, a failed FX at worst. Perhaps the damage and deformation that occurred when they tried to weld in the washer is what disqualified the Elstree and caused them to switch to the onscreen pipe FX. Removing the bulb assembly and installing that washer to keep the blade in place would have been the first step in converting the Graflex into a motorized FX. When the deformation of the upper half occurred, they wouldn’t have bothered to continue working on it, and so that would explain why they are no hints of electronics inside the bottom half.

Also, how sure are we about the timeline regarding the discovery and recovery of this prop? I’m just spitballing, here, but is there any possibility at all that this was an early, failed attempt at an ESB stunt saber? Remember, the Vader ESB sabers also used the bubble-strips, so they’re not exclusive to ANH. And the two-rivet d-ring assembly (at least until recently) had been exclusively linked to ESB. Which if this is an early attempt at an ESB stunt saber, before they decided to use the hex-head fasteners in the upper half? It seems unlikely, but I’m just polling the group.

 

[Gregatron]

Just finished watching ANH theatrical SE. The last appearance of the hero seems to be after the remote scene is done. I remember seeing a pic after Ben's death on the Falcon where Luke has a hero. Am I wrong, is there deleted footage. Some one earlier posted the last scene of the saber was when Luke was buckling down at the holo board. Is that when Leia come to comfort him?

How many Heroes have been proven in ANH to have had screen time?

This being the first movie did they really have lots of Hero sabers? I thinking 2 now and a spinning stunt.

If the Elstree is a Hero and it got rejected after a failed experiment just before the remote scene, that would explain a second hero replacement. I find it odd that after the remote scene we don't really see it anymore for the rest of the theatrical release of the movie?

Can anyone fill me in on that. And if that photo does exist of after Ben death at the holo board showing the saber can someone link me to it. I really thought I had a copy of something like that. Cheers.

As noted on the previous page, the last onscreen appearance of the hero is when our heroes pop out of the smuggling compartments. The last (known) appearance of the prop during filming is when Luke buckles up during the escape from Tatooine, with the upper half rotated.

There’s really no need for the prop after the ship arrives at the Death Star, since it plays no role in the story, and Luke is seen wearing Stormtrooper armor (and later just the belt), his X-Wing pilot uniform, and finally his ceremonial outfit, none of which had a belt hook to hang the prop from.

 

[Gregatron]

Some photos if you want to analize about the theory of the tradition of swapping out parts. Here you see a costume test by John Mollo, with top half of a graflex in the belt. Where is the other half? into the final prop maybe?

View attachment 995975

Another one of Michael Ford, in ESB, again only the top part of a graflex.

View attachment 995976

Never seen these before! Note that the clamp is in the publicity/ESB position in the first photo, and that the upper half in the second photo still appears to have a glass eye instead of a second red button. And is that a full or half-knurl button?

 

[indignate]

When we opened, the bulb assembly, or the graflex internal socket, was still there. One a couple of tiny screws were missing.

Andy Mitchell was so sure he got it from the time of the fisrt SW

 

[teecrooz]

Some photos if you want to analize about the theory of the tradition of swapping out parts. Here you see a costume test by John Mollo, with top half of a graflex in the belt. Where is the other half? into the final prop maybe?

View attachment 995975

Another one of Michael Ford, in ESB, again only the top part of a graflex.

View attachment 995976

I don’t think I’ve seen those before either. Do you have other photos you could share here or in a separate thread?

 

[Gregatron]

When we opened, the bulb assembly, or the graflex internal socket, was still there. One a couple of tiny screws were missing.

Andy Mitchell was so sure he got it from the time of the fisrt SW

Very good, then.

 

[indignate]

I never had a graflex. Could someone check if in his that hole also makes that particular half moon shape? just curious.

 

[indignate]

I don’t think I’ve seen those before either. Do you have other photos you could share here or in a separate thread?

There is other one of costume test fitting of Luke, but I think there was no lightsaber. Thats why I didnt save it. But Will look for it.