Lindelof Star Wars film

[batguy]

Also Moore claims that many of the actual readers of Watchmen did not get it either

for example, regarding Rorschach

Shades of 'Joker'.

That's a recurring issue with this kind of social-outcast-loner-antihero. Some viewers side with them way too much.

Remember the 1990 Michael Douglass 'Falling Down' movie? They were intending for the viewer to start off being on the main character's side, and then gradually transition against him as he got crazier. The filmmakers were surprised that many viewers stayed with him to the end.

 

[Gregatron]

Shades of 'Joker'.

That's a recurring issue with this kind of social-outcast-loner-antihero. Some viewers side with them way too much.

Remember the 1990 Michael Douglass 'Falling Down' movie? They were intending for the viewer to start off being on the main character's side, and then gradually transition against him as he got crazier. The filmmakers were surprised that many viewers stayed with him to the end.

Walter White is another good example of this sort of thing.

 

[Solo4114]

There's a whooooooole lotta repressed anger out there... And I think people are often very, very taken by the notion of a character that (A) rejects authority, and (B) appears to get away with it. They also often forget that, at least in fiction, these characters often get what's coming to them, which should have made it clear that they were bad all along.

Pretty sure that's why Vince Gilligan choose "Baby Blue" to wrap up Breaking Bad. The opening line goes "Guess I got what I deserved..."

 

[Gregatron]

Not to mention how close the components all sit together. On Prowse there's space between them and you can see the straps of the chestbox. Even at the low camera angle you'd still see those gaps, so I agree it's unlikely this shot is of Prowse in the suit.

There's a whooooooole lotta repressed anger out there... And I think people are often very, very taken by the notion of a character that (A) rejects authority, and (B) appears to get away with it. They also often forget that, at least in fiction, these characters often get what's coming to them, which should have made it clear that they were bad all along.

Pretty sure that's why Vince Gilligan choose "Baby Blue" to wrap up Breaking Bad. The opening line goes "Guess I got what I deserved..."

I’m also quite convinced that’s partly why BETTER CALL SAUL ended the way it did, as opposed to Walt’s not-really “redemption”. They wanted to end the universe on a positive note.

While BREAKING BAD never told the audience what to think or how to view the characters, it has been noted many times that there is a sort of moral karma in that universe. Walt became a monster, tried in a small way to fix things, and then died alone after ruining countless lives and destroying his own family. Not exactly a happy ending, although the shooting script does note that “he got away with it” in the stage direction for Walt collapsing and dying.

On the flipside, Jimmy McGill found a way to accept responsibility for his sins and break his own cycle of self-destruction.

 

[JPH]

The notion of going back to a prior era for stories as a solution just reminded me of something...

View attachment 1632204

(It's Rings of Power)

Star Wars: Mark Hamill Reacts To Amazing Female Luke Skywalker Fan Art In Funny Way

Hamill happily took it all in stride.

screenrant.com

 

[Paul Andrew]

I have very little to add here, except that I didn't particularly care for the versions of Trek that he wrote and am wary of things he's attached to.

I'll see it, I'm sure, but plan to withhold commentary until something actually materializes.

 

[ScourgiousJinx]

Disappointing choice to lead a SW project just based on his past work. I love a good redemption story though whether it be in film, books or IRL So if he knocks the ball out of the park with this film I'll be happy as a clam as I'd much rather enjoy something than be right about it sucking.

 

[JPH]

Also Moore claims that many of the actual readers of Watchmen did not get it either

for example, regarding Rorschach



And regarding him watching any adaptations of his work culminating in a letter from LIndelof...

The Grand Return of ‘Watchmen’ Author Alan Moore

In a rare interview, the author discusses his new collection of fiction, 'Illuminations,' the fate of his work in Hollywood, and how it feels to be misunderstood.

www.gq.com

Rorschach was willing to die for the truth.

Was he a mumbling psychopath? In the comic and movie, when he spoke, he was very economical with his choice of words and he was also capable of solving crimes. His journal was HIS. Actually, his journal reminded me of over-the-top Red Badge of Courage.

Rorschach wasn't portrayed properly, if m...m..mumbling psychopath was his goal.

Rorschach's techniques weren't pleasant, but that was the point, Rorschach was every criminal's worst nightmare. Criminals can't hide behind the same rules they were breaking. Really, wasn't that the reason why heroes started in that world anyways?

Think of the fight with Night Owl and Silk Spectre II in the alley. They are just breaking bones and messing gang members up!!!

Rorschach's only attachments were other heroes.

In the end, Rorschach would rather die trying to tell the truth vs knowing millions were Killed to perpetuate a lie.

I know I'd rather know an ugly truth than blissfully live a mass-murdering lie hoping the lie doesn't target me next.

Working man vs elitist, I guess.

One of the YUGE plot holes in Watchmen was that Dr. Manhattan could prevent nuclear holocaust. He can make clones of himself, *IF* he was truly that concerned. He chose the lazy route, he even let someone else kill the millions in the movie. I still liked the movie using him over the space squid.

 

[Gregatron]

Rorschach was willing to die for the truth.

Was he a mumbling psychopath? In the comic and movie, when he spoke, he was very economical with his choice of words and he was also capable of solving crimes. His journal was HIS. Actually, his journal reminded me of over-the-top Red Badge of Courage.

Rorschach wasn't portrayed properly, if m...m..mumbling psychopath was his goal.

Rorschach's techniques weren't pleasant, but that was the point, Rorschach was every criminal's worst nightmare. Criminals can't hide behind the same rules they were breaking. Really, wasn't that the reason why heroes started in that world anyways?

Think of the fight with Night Owl and Silk Spectre II in the alley. They are just breaking bones and messing gang members up!!!

Rorschach's only attachments were other heroes.

In the end, Rorschach would rather die trying to tell the truth vs knowing millions were Killed to perpetuate a lie.

I know I'd rather know an ugly truth than blissfully live a mass-murdering lie hoping the lie doesn't target me next.

Working man vs elitist, I guess.

One of the YUGE plot holes in Watchmen was that Dr. Manhattan could prevent nuclear holocaust. He can make clones of himself, *IF* he was truly that concerned. He chose the lazy route, he even let someone else kill the millions in the movie. I still liked the movie using him over the space squid.

Of course, Moore was trying to depict a “realistic” Batman/Question-style vigilante by having Rorschach be a psychotic who was sexless, unwashed, and a social outcast who came from a dysfunctional background. And yet people responded to him because he didn’t take any BS and was unwilling to compromise when it came to the truth. Also, because he was the character who led readers into the story and its murder mystery, he essentially became the audience viewpoint character.

And his utilitarian speech/writing mannerisms were based on, of all things, Herbie the Fat Fury.

 

[Riceball]

They're saying today that this movie will be post Sequels and possibly involve some Sequel characters. Because people want more of them... Right out of the gate they would have probably half the SW audience skipping it. I don't think that's a good business plan unless, like Marvel, your goal is antagonizing your fans.

I also read a report that Disney told KK to stop announcing SW projects, which is why there were no announcements at Celebration or that Disney day thing.

I disagree with that notion. As much as older fans dislike the PT, I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of kids out there who grew up on the PT and to whom the PT is Star Wars to them. I think that this is what Disney is banking on, the next generation of fans that don't identify with the PT much less the OT, and are all about Rey and Kylo Ren. I think that they're smart in not ignoring this part of the fandom and continuing to make ST related content.

 

[Riceball]

Maybe. I do think that endless announcements of "an unnamed film with XYZ director" are pretty pointless now. Even if you were doing it just to manipulate investors, at this point I'd say that people will approach it with a "boy who cried wolf" point of view. "Oh look. Another announced project? Riiiiight. Don't bother me until you at least have set pictures, some cast to announce, or even just a friggin' title."

If you want to talk about endless announcements of impending projects with X directing, nothing beats the long-proposed live-action Robotech movie. That one really takes the cake for premature announcements, every few years for at least the past 15 years there's an announcement that a live-action Robotech movie is in the works with certain names attached to it . . . then nothing happens. Then a few years later there's another announcement of it happening, this time with someone else's name attached to it and, of course, nothing happens. And it's still going now with the creator(?) of the Hawkeye series being the latest name attached to this project. So Disney/Lucasflms really has nothing on Harmony Gold/Sony and their live-action Robotech movie.

 

[batguy]

Of course, Moore was trying to depict a “realistic” Batman/Question-style vigilante by having Rorschach be a psychotic sexless, unwashed, and a social outcast who came from a dysfunctional background. And yet people responded to him because he didn’t take any BS and was unwilling to compromise when it came to the truth. Also, because he was the character who led readers into the story and its murder mystery, he essentially became the audience viewpoint character.

And his utilitarian speech/writing mannerisms were based on, of all things, Herbie the Fat Fury.

Batman & Question aren't exactly realistic. Those vigilantes are protrayed as respectable & glamorous to the point of absurdity.

Look at Bruce Wayne in particular (or Tony Stark). The character seems like something out of a PR campaign that was commissioned by some billionaires to improve their image. It would come off as stupid & insulting if it was a new invention today:

"Yeah, sure. Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos might go around in a costume at night, risking his butt to protect me from muggers in a dark alleys. That's totally plausible. And if he did, it would definitely be for responsible & moral reasons. Not because he's a violent sadist with too much money & power. Riiiiiight."


Alan Moore was just swinging the pendulum in the other direction with Rorschach. The whole 'Watchmen' thing was about deconstruction, not realism. And he was inventing characters that we hadn't already grown up with.

 

[Gregatron]

Batman & Question aren't exactly realistic. Those vigilantes are protrayed as respectable & glamorous to the point of absurdity.

Look at Bruce Wayne in particular (or Tony Stark). The character seems like something out of a PR campaign that was commissioned by some billionaires to improve their image. It would come off as stupid & insulting if it was a new invention today:

"Yeah, sure. Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos might go around in a costume at night, risking his butt to protect me from muggers in a dark alleys. That's totally plausible. And if he did, it would definitely be for responsible & moral reasons. Not because he's a violent sadist with too much money & power. Riiiiiight."


Alan Moore was just swinging the pendulum in the other direction with Rorschach. The whole 'Watchmen' thing was about deconstruction, not realism. And he was inventing characters that we hadn't already grown up with.

I meant “realistic” in the sense of applying those deconstructionist ideas—superheroes living in a world without superpowers (Dr. Manhattan and the technology resulting from his existence being the story’s one “magic bean” of necessary verisimilitude) who have far more serious and adult psychological and sexual issues and hang ups.

After all, beaming a psychic squid-monster into New York isn’t exactly the height of realism. But, when people have praised WATCHMEN for being “so realistic”, it’s most definitely the layers of character detail and human flaws that they’re responding to.


After all, a character like Batman was specifically designed to be a larger-than-life, mythic hero who inspires kids. Moore’s deconstructionist vision of that by way of Rorschach is much more along the lines of how such a character would likely be, in reality. Grungy, violent, and very disturbed. Unable to function in normal society, unlike wealthy Bruce Wayne successfully serving as a beloved public figure, business owner, and playboy.

 

[JPH]

I meant “realistic” in the sense of applying those deconstructionist ideas—superheroes living in a world without superpowers (Dr. Manhattan and the technology resulting from his existence being the story’s one “magic bean” of necessary verisimilitude) who have far more serious and adult psychological and sexual issues and hang ups.

After all, beaming a psychic squid-monster into New York isn’t exactly the height of realism. But, when people have praised WATCHMEN for being “so realistic”, it’s most definitely the layers of character detail and human flaws that they’re responding to.


After all, a character like Batman was specifically designed to be a larger-than-life, mythic hero who inspires kids. Moore’s deconstructionist vision of that by way of Rorschach is much more along the lines of how such a character would likely be, in reality. Grungy, violent, and very disturbed. Unable to function in normal society, unlike wealthy Bruce Wayne successfully serving as a beloved public figure, business owner, and playboy.

Except they already had a martial-artist/gadgeteer, Nite Owl. Didnt he make Rorschach's grapple gun? And once again, like in the alley fight, he had no issue with breaking bones. He also spent his evenings with his hero having beers and reminiscing.

Rorschach could have easily been rich if he stole or kept what others stole.

For anyone to want to go out and be a vigilante/hero they would need to have issues.

If Rorschach or Nite Owl said they had someone's back, I'd believe it.

 

[Gregatron]

Except they already had a martial-artist/gadgeteer, Nite Owl. Didnt he make Rorschach's grapple gun? And once again, like in the alley fight, he had no issue with breaking bones. He also spent his evenings with his hero having beers and reminiscing.

Rorschach could have easily been rich if he stole or kept what others stole.

For anyone to want to go out and be a vigilante/hero they would need to have issues.

If Rorschach or Nite Owl said they had someone's back, I'd believe it.

Of course, WATCHMEN’s characters are suspiciously-similar substitutes for the existing Charlton characters that the series was originally going to be about (Blue Beetle, the Question, Peacemaker, etc.), with Moore and Gibbons also incorporating elements of other characters like Batman and Superman into the mix after it was decided to create new characters who were a riff on the Charlton cast. Nite Owl is basically a blend of Blue Beetle and Batman, with dashes of characters like Barry Allen and Peter Parker thrown in.

Certainly, Rorschach’s black-and-white morality aside, WATCHMEN is full of shades of gray. There’s no doubt that both he and Nite Owl were fighting for the greater good, yet Nite Owl goes along with Veidt’s cover-up, while Rorschach remains dedicated to the truth, and dies for it.

I appreciate the fact that Moore doesn’t tie the story up with a bow and tell the readers which character is “right”. And, of course, the ending is itself a meta-commentary on the endless cycle of superhero comics. Dr. Manhattan even hangs a lampshade on it by telling Veidt that “Nothing ever ends”. Moore’s THE KILLING JOKE also employed similar commentary on the endless cycle of the relationship between Batman and the Joker, which is of course a direct result of the ongoing storytelling of the superhero genre.

And this may be blasphemy to say, but, while WATCHMEN hit me hard with its depth and intelligence when I read it as a kid, I have to say that MIRACLEMAN had perhaps an even stronger impact on me when I read it for the first time, only two years ago. It has flaws, but it was very much Moore’s first and most hard-hitting superhero deconstruction. It’s arguably even more impactful in that goal, as it takes Superman/Captain Marvel-type demigods to their logical conclusion as they become benign dictators who reshape the world. An overlooked masterpiece, even.

 

[NeoRutty]

Disappointing choice to lead a SW project just based on his past work. I love a good redemption story though whether it be in film, books or IRL So if he knocks the ball out of the park with this film I'll be happy as a clam as I'd much rather enjoy something than be right about it sucking.

 

[NakedMoleRat]

What happened to the Ryan Johnson trilogy that we were promised?

 

[Gregatron]

What happened to the Ryan Johnson trilogy that we were promised?

He just went out for cigarettes.

 

[NakedMoleRat]

He just went out for cigarettes.

The Marlboro trilogy.

 

[Mottrex]

The Marlboro trilogy.

Like the brand... I gave up years ago