Joek3rr

Sr Member
That might be true but doesn't change the point you replied to, that I-III felt less "real" due to the use of CGI. It wasn't really ready tech wise to be used on the scale Lucas wanted. So much of the PT feels like reverse Roger Rabbit to me. Real actors walking through a well rendered animation.
Actually, it's just the opposite. Most of settings and environments are "real" as in miniatures.(yes even Kamino) It's many of the characters and vehicles that are CGI. Very similar to how The Lord of the Rings was made actually.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Pretty sure they had done with the real "flying" models by epII, the whole asteroid bit was def cgi, come to think of it most of the pod race in epI was cgi. They still used lots of practical models for static scenes throughout the prequels, which was nice.

Anyhoo, the reason I'm here... Watched Empire last night and noticed along with the white IG88 and the tie fighter pilot helmet in the junk room where chewie finds 3po, there's also a medical droid body with Zuckusss' (or 4-loms if you are a certain age) head on it in the foreground...View attachment 1027628
I gotta say, that's an ugly combination. Yuck! lol
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
No its a standard X-Wing, the reason it looks different is because it wasnt built by the ILM model builders, but by set builders,....for the split second you see it or the miniatures on screen, you don't notice the differences,....exactly the same with the differences between the 5 foot, 32", Full size ANH, Full Size ESB, Full Size sequel films of the Falcon

Its all movie magic,....until you see behind the scenes or pause the film

J
If you look at the back of the X-wing in ANH it's got all that raised up greebling similar to the model.
1027803
 

Jaitea

Master Member
I know that. I'm just trying guess at why the X-wing changed so much between films? And was it an intentional change?
Time restraints probably, Stanley Kubrick put big pressure on the filming at Elstree because of a fire on his set

No intentional change, as I said, movie magic, in the split second you see the ship in the film, you don't notice

J
 

Bigdaddy

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Actually, it's just the opposite. Most of settings and environments are "real" as in miniatures.(yes even Kamino) It's many of the characters and vehicles that are CGI. Very similar to how The Lord of the Rings was made actually.
Again, your ignoring the point. When an actor isn't actually in a "real" environment, it's much more difficult to create an illusion for the audience, both visually (lighting, compositing, environmental effects, etc.) as well as for the actors performances.
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MV5BMTcwNDExMDU3NV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTgwMzQ5ODcyNDM@._V1_SX1522_CR0,0,1522,999_AL_.jpg


Whether they are compositing in miniature sets or CGI, it still lacks the feel of reality on screen.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Again, your ignoring the point. When an actor isn't actually in a "real" environment, it's much more difficult to create an illusion for the audience, both visually (lighting, compositing, environmental effects, etc.) as well as for the actors performances.
View attachment 1027884View attachment 1027885View attachment 1027886

Whether they are compositing in miniature sets or CGI, it still lacks the feel of reality on screen.
I understand the difficulties that actors have. I'm not missing your point. It always looks better when it's all in camera.

My point is, using your 3 examples. Building everything at full scale isn't always practical because of time and/or money. Or just plain isn't practical. If you only have a shot that lasts a few seconds, then they don't bother to create it at full scale. The first two examples you give, aren't even in the film, so whatever they were a part of got cut out. So big time/and money saver, by not building those. And your third example is from the Geonosis arena, which would have been straight up impractical to create at full size. So out came the extremely talented model makers to fill it in.

My question is for you, would you rather they make the background plates with CGI or with real physical models? And how can you stand to watch new movies? There's more CGI VFX in films today than ever before. Like the time suits that the Avengers wear in Endgame. The design wasn't finished so they didn't have real suits, so every scene where they are wearing them, those suits are CGI.

This guy did a nice video about the practical effects of the prequels.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Oh...don't get me started on "Ooops!" .... "Ooops!" Anakin just randomly accidentally launching the fighter, accidentally blowing things up (I think the intent was to imply either he's so powerful he 'wins' on accident or that The Force is really controlling what is happening. Sadly, that same Force lets him down when he decides to "save Padme" which somehow turns inconsistently into "choke Padme" because I want to rule the galaxy all the sudden, which never really came up before other than a comment after riding a bucking alien animal thing.

Anakin, the most powerful "midichlorine" (what a great idea George!) guy ever created gets over a decade of training and still SUCKS enough that his own son kicks his butt. And Obi-Wan (because he has the 'higher ground' and despite the fact Dooku took him out in like 10 seconds and Anakin beat Dooku like he was nothing this time and yet CANNOT beat Obi-Wan at all (because he MUST become Darth Vader and Obi-Wan MUST be uninjured--the result of having to write something after the fact to fit something that comes later even when your writing for the previous movies implies Anakin should be able to kick Obi-Wans butt in about 2 seconds).

God, the writing was awful and I don't just mean the sad sad dialog (We're coming in too hot! Oops. WTF....), but these implications of creating "the SON of the Force" and then having him ultimately get his butt kicked (twice, after losing his arm). That took Darth Vader, the bad ass of bad asses and made him into a whiny sniveling two-bit Jedi (and after Obi-Want told us how great he was! But then Obi-Wan also told us how 'civil' the old Republic was when we see that it's not even remotely civil and its falling apart due to a form of government that is so easily corrupted that it's a small wonder anyone would think Democracy is a good idea.... (actually one of the few plot points I really liked from the prequels as it mirrors how a certain current democracy(ies) is (are) a corrupted shell designed to support corporations and the rich and the hell with everyone else who yet cheer their own crappy future because they're idiots that believe everything someone like Palpatine says).

Let's face it. The original trilogy on its own stands up fairly well. But once you start delving too deep, it all falls apart. Maybe this is because Captain Blood didn't spend a lot of time examining why the King was bad, only enough to let you know why they became pirates. Ultimatley, that's all the new trilogy needed was just enough to let you figure it out on your own in your head. The original trilogies did this. You know there was an Old Republic. You know that it was overthrown in part because Darth Vader betrayed and killed the Jedi. You learn the Emperor isn't just a leader holding Vader's leash (that was Tarkin's job it seems), but his "master" that could kick his butt with lightning if need be (and when you're in a life-saving electronic suit, lightning bolts are BAD). I didn't need to know Anakin was the best kid ever who when trained suddenly turned into an utterly spoiled brat for no discernable reason whatsoever and whose memory forgets R2D2 and C3PO and everything else that seemed important at the time but no longer does (let alone Obi-Wan... "I don't seem to remember ever owning a droid" so the prequels make sure he has multiple droids and that they play key parts in the story because you know, fans will like seeing familiar faces more than having a consistent plot!

Perhaps they should have gotten Joss Whedon to make Star Wars. Buffy the Sith Killer.... :D (You're a bad Sith! Why do you Sith have to get all temper tantremy with your flamey swords when you know I'm just gonna kick your butts anyway? "Who are you?" I'm Buffy!
Indeed you are correct when you say that it is meant to imply that the Force is controlling what happens. George Lucas said "...it controls individuals yet we have free will." Or as Obi-Wan put it. "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially, but it also obeys your commands." And recently in Rogue One we got "all is as the Force wills it." So the Force controls everything(notice there is no distinction between which side does the controlling it's always just the Force, no Light or Dark)

Anakin gets his butt kicked by his master. He may be The Chosen One, but he's still a emotionally unstable flawed human being. You know "When I left you, I was but the learner. Now I am the master." (Kinda funny when you remember, "your on this council, but we do not grant you the rank of master.")
Considering the emotional turmoil Anakin is going through its no suprise that Obi-Wan was victorious. Kinda how Anakin's grandson would be bested "by a girl who had never held a lightsaber in her life!"

And Obi-Wan is correct, he never owned a droid. Jedi don't own anything. Not even their lightsaber. We've seen that Jedi that leave the order, must leave their lightsaber.
 

modelcitizen

Sr Member
aye, i know. but the mandalorean is not episode 7 or 8....
somebody somehow got it in their head that models were used in the new trilogy...
perhaps some roman numeral ignorance is the reason for a misunderstanding.
(posts 959, 960)
 
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VonMagnum

Active Member
Indeed you are correct when you say that it is meant to imply that the Force is controlling what happens. George Lucas said "...it controls individuals yet we have free will." Or as Obi-Wan put it. "You mean it controls your actions?" "Partially, but it also obeys your commands." And recently in Rogue One we got "all is as the Force wills it." So the Force controls everything(notice there is no distinction between which side does the controlling it's always just the Force, no Light or Dark)
That's actually why I liked KOTOR 2 so much. Kreia has experienced light and dark and rejected BOTH (and plot of all plots wanted to destroy or at least sever "The Force" from interfering with life in the (and maybe all) galaxies. She hated being played like a puppet by some unseen Force/God with unknowable true intentions. The world is not all white or all black. It's made up of shades of grey and keeping things in 'balance' doesn't mean the 'Light' triumphs over the Dark. I think this is one area where Lucas again had it right in the prequels as he clearly didn't paint the Jedi as all "good" but flawed and viewing the world from a very myopic simplistic viewpoint (the whole thing of no attachments removes you from any real feeling towards your moral actions; a point not lost in the second Matrix movie as well where NEO is the first "One" that has any real emotional attachment to someone in the world beyond a general kind of way and thus fights much harder to fix the problem than any previous incarnation of The One did and ultimately beats the equation by destroying it). That movie was flawed as well, but it had some interesting points to make that many miss.

While I have a lot of issues with the prequels, the one thing I love about them is that they do NOT portray the Jedi as the galaxy's saviors, but more like some elite police fore that will hold the Republic together NO MATTER WHAT THE COST (even if The Republic is shown to be a rotting corpse of corruption). They show that they are part of an overall problems where "god-like" beings interfere and disrupt and ultimately cause massive collateral damage in their quest to destroy one "part/side" of the Force when "The Force" is inherently more than the sum of which side of it is facing the sun at any given moment, so-to-speak. Babylon 5 came at this from the dual perspective of The Shadows (Dark) and the Vorlons (Light) who both had the same ultimate goal (evolution of the species) from differing methods. Neither were truly good or evil. They had different methods. The Vorlons wouldn't hesitate to destroy entire planets if that meant removing the Shadow "contamination" proving they were even MORE EVIL than the freaking Shadows themselves due to HYPOCRISY.

That same hypocrisy is blatantly obvious in the Star Wars prequels when the Jedi Council ask Anakin to spy on Palpatine. It's even more obvious when Mace Windu echoes the same words Palpatine uttered in the beginning of the movie (He's too dangerous to be kept alive) showing that the Sith and the Jedi weren't so different, after all when the chips were down. Palpatine violated the Sith rule of two (with Maul) to get what he wanted. Mace Windu was willing to be judge, jury and executioner if that meant stopping the Sith. I believe the movie portrayed it as being Mace's fault that Anakin turned. Anakin TRIED to do the right thing. He came to help Mace. But when Mace threatened Anakin's only hope (from his viewpoint) of saving Padme by violating the Jedi Order's own rules regarding its justice system it forced Anakin's hand as he chose Padme over the Jedi. The mistake they then made, IMO was making Anakin way too dark too quickly. He forgot all about Padme and even force choked her with sudden grand visions of destroying the Chancellor and ruling the galaxy himself. WTF did that come from SO quickly? That bothered me not to mention it's hard to picture that little kid Anakin slaughtering children.

The movie went too far, IMO. AFTER he lost Padme, I could see him not giving a crap anymore. But that's just my opinion, of course. I think the matter could have been better handled. I also don't think Obi-Wan should have been the reason he was in that life support suit. They made it clear Obi-Wan was no match for Dooku and Dooku wasn't a match for Anakin by ROTS (yes I'm aware of the idea that Dooku let himself lose to be betrayed by Palpatine, but that ignores the rule of two once again so it's not plausible as does ROTJ when they have this notion of bringing Luke over...to what? Be a Dark Jedi with no Sith ambitions? Unlikely. The idea that both Sideous and Vader had notions of replacing each other with Luke is far more believable but them talking to each other with nodding winks in my mind is a bit much).

Meanwhile, KOTOR II's concept of destroying the connection to The Force would be the ultimate movie apart from the Skywalker story, IMO. They could tell the basic story of Kotor and Kotor II and then have a future generation finish off the Force once and for all and that would explain why today in the other galaxies in the Universe (since that was long long ago) that there are no "Force" powers to be found connected at least directly to most/all lifeforms. After all, the opening lines imply Star Wars is in the same Universe as us, just a different galaxy in the distant past. Yeah, it would kill Star Wars "Force" mysticism. Hellraiser IV killed the Leviathan link through the box (maybe). But the Star Wars time frames of space travel are tens of thousands of years and that could happen even further into the future so it'd be more like a wrap story in a way. Yeah, I know they'd never go for it. They don't want anything from that canon because Star Wars is supposed to be an infinite money-maker of all time (at least until it doesn't make money anymore when it will be unceremoniously let to die a slow death of unused but still owned ideas (if the copyright laws never expire as Disney wants them changed to be).
 

VonMagnum

Active Member
When is Hollywood going to get that Green Screen just doesn't cut it?!?!? We need to move on to PURPLE SCREEN dammit!!! :D
 

Bigdaddy

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I understand the difficulties that actors have. I'm not missing your point. It always looks better when it's all in camera.

My point is, using your 3 examples. Building everything at full scale isn't always practical because of time and/or money. Or just plain isn't practical. If you only have a shot that lasts a few seconds, then they don't bother to create it at full scale. The first two examples you give, aren't even in the film, so whatever they were a part of got cut out. So big time/and money saver, by not building those. And your third example is from the Geonosis arena, which would have been straight up impractical to create at full size. So out came the extremely talented model makers to fill it in.

My question is for you, would you rather they make the background plates with CGI or with real physical models? And how can you stand to watch new movies? There's more CGI VFX in films today than ever before. Like the time suits that the Avengers wear in Endgame. The design wasn't finished so they didn't have real suits, so every scene where they are wearing them, those suits are CGI.

This guy did a nice video about the practical effects of the prequels.
Wow you really like to drive a discussion in 6 directions!
I'll reiterate my original point, the prequels relied too heavily on CGI technology that was not up to the task at the time they were made. There's plenty of other films that have the same problem. I don't know when good CGI is being done because it doesn't look like CGI.
I find the overuse of fledgling CGI tech in the prequels off-putting, takes me out of the story. There's some sfx shots in the OT that don't work well either but the story is engaging enough that my mind glosses over them.
Now that I've typed this I'm leaving my office. ;)
IMG_20190610_104922849.jpg
 

Sluis Van Shipyards

Master Member
I don't completely buy the idea that green screen, like the pic above, is that big of an impediment to an actor. Give any kids some sticks and put them outside and pretty soon they're soldiers fighting a war. They don't have a fancy set either.
 
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