Unaltered Original Star Wars Trilogy on Blu Ray?

[PoopaPapaPalps]

...nothing new just rehashed ideas!

It's long been like that, I felt. Everything after the OT, even more so today, has been just the same ideas re-used and watered down. People made a big kerfuffle over the new EU canon taking over the old EU canon, when the sad fact was that it had always been dumb. Tales of the Jedi, the Yuuzhan Vong, Shadows of the Empire---I remember then that it was terrible. And it's good to know that it's really no different today.

 

[Treadwell]

The first cut was just that. It was an assembly of what was shot. Those are are always too long, too slow, too boring. It's a starting point.

The "saved" thing is hyperbolic and dramatic. It had great editors (not just Marcia, but also Richard Chew and Paul Hirsch) who OF COURSE made it better and better as the work continued. That is as it should be. All movies that are well edited would qualify as "saved".

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Now, now, let's be fair; Lucas didn't know how to and what to tell of A New Hope at the start, so he filmed whatever and would figure it out later (standard fare for him). He immediately had problems after he gave the footage to his first editor on the project, John Jympson (an old-school editor from Hard Day's Night, Zulu, and early Ealing films) who put together a conventional cut based on what he got. That was the rough cut that put everyone off and is what that video is about. Paul Hirsch and Richard Chew were brought on, along with Lucas' wife, Marcia, with input from Lucas himself to reassemble everything. That was only after the rough cut, and when they figured what Star Wars should and should not have (or needed).

It would have continuous additions almost up until release, famously the opening crawl, suggested (and rumored penned) by Brian De Palma.

The first cut was just that. It was an assembly of what was shot. Those are are always too long, too slow, too boring. It's a starting point.

The "saved" thing is hyperbolic and dramatic. It had great editors (not just Marcia, but also Richard Chew and Paul Hirsch) who OF COURSE made it better and better as the work continued. That is as it should be. All movies that are well edited would qualify as "saved".

The final George edit was the one with Luke introduced at the beginning, out repairing the vaporators, the Anchorhead scene, his reunion with Biggs, several scenes in different order from what we know, a few redundant scenes that added nothing and just conveyed the same information we'd already gotten, and, at the end, the Rebels fly to where the Death Star is and blow it up.

Marcia and Richard went back and recut it at almost the last minute, swapped some scenes around to make a more streamlined story throughline, eliminated a few redundant scenes, cut out the whole Anchorhead sequence, and introduced the element of the Death Star attacking the Rebel base through clever intercutting, additional off-camera voice-over dialogue, and a couple newly filmed insert shots of the Death Star viewscreen and the Rebel base tactical table. George signed off on that, but it was mainly Marcia saying what went where. I do very definitely consider those two versions "George's Star Wars" and "Marcia's Star Wars".

 

[Treadwell]

There was no "final George edit" before the others went to work. There is no line of demarcation like that. It was an evolving, organic process. It wasn't a case of him finishing a cut and handing it over for fixing. Everything was happening at the same time.

Very interesting interview with Paul Hirsch:

As a surprising side note, one thing he dispels is the notion that the WWII fighter footage was chosen on a shot-by-shot basis to represent the FX shots that would be replacing them. He said they were simply placeholders with movement in them that were less distracting than "insert here" cards.

 

[PoopaPapaPalps]

Didn't know something like this podcast existed! I'll have to check out the backlog!

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Treadwell, when I say the final George edit, I mean the one I described, that Fox asked for -- introducing the hero at the beginning and such. When the judgment that it felt too meandering came down, he did not know how to fix it. Marcia did. She took point. Cut what was cut, swapped what was swapped. I never said she didn't without George's knowledge and consent. As with dePalma writing the opening crawl after George's attempt rambled for a page and a half, he knew his limitations as a writer at the time, and trusted those he worked with to shore up his weak points. While Marcia tackled the re-edit, he went to the VFX stage to film the inserts -- his strong point. It was still very collaborative, rather than him dictating everything, as he would from ROTJ on. That's what I was getting at.

 

[joberg]

There was no "final George edit" before the others went to work. There is no line of demarcation like that. It was an evolving, organic process. It wasn't a case of him finishing a cut and handing it over for fixing. Everything was happening at the same time.

Very interesting interview with Paul Hirsch:

As a surprising side note, one thing he dispels is the notion that the WWII fighter footage was chosen on a shot-by-shot basis to represent the FX shots that would be replacing them. He said they were simply placeholders with movement in them that were less distracting than "insert here" cards.

Interesting to hear him regretting the new inserts that weren't necessary for the dynamic of the story/action.

 

[Solo4114]

It's long been like that, I felt. Everything after the OT, even more so today, has been just the same ideas re-used and watered down. People made a big kerfuffle over the new EU canon taking over the old EU canon, when the sad fact was that it had always been dumb. Tales of the Jedi, the Yuuzhan Vong, Shadows of the Empire---I remember then that it was terrible. And it's good to know that it's really no different today.

The old EU was garbage mostly. There were some books that were kinda ok, and a few that were great. The Zahn trilogy was excellent and remains entertaining today. The Jedi Academy trilogy was...meh. Most of what came after that was at best mediocre and at worst hot garbage. When they nuked the whole thing, I laughed because I'd given up on it right around when the Black Fleet Crisis came out. The writers were too beholden to recreating the past films and never let the characters really grow or change. Their circumstances might change, but they might as well have been frozen in amber in 1983.

I loved the Brian Daley Solo series, loved the Zahn books, but most of the rest were pretty forgettable. Stackpole's X-wing books were good, too. It was clear he'd played the games.

The final George edit was the one with Luke introduced at the beginning, out repairing the vaporators, the Anchorhead scene, his reunion with Biggs, several scenes in different order from what we know, a few redundant scenes that added nothing and just conveyed the same information we'd already gotten, and, at the end, the Rebels fly to where the Death Star is and blow it up.

Marcia and Richard went back and recut it at almost the last minute, swapped some scenes around to make a more streamlined story throughline, eliminated a few redundant scenes, cut out the whole Anchorhead sequence, and introduced the element of the Death Star attacking the Rebel base through clever intercutting, additional off-camera voice-over dialogue, and a couple newly filmed insert shots of the Death Star viewscreen and the Rebel base tactical table. George signed off on that, but it was mainly Marcia saying what went where. I do very definitely consider those two versions "George's Star Wars" and "Marcia's Star Wars".

You can hear a lot of this -- and see how meandering it really is -- in the NPR Radio Dramas. Cutting that stuff out was important and made the films better.

For those unfamiliar, Luke is out fixing vaporators with a treadwell droid, sees a space battle, then rushes back to Tosche Station to tell all his friends who make fun of him. Then Biggs shows up, defends him, they have a race which Luke wins, and Biggs tells him to not worry about the jackasses he hangs out with and to get off planet.. Then says he's jumping ship to join the Rebellion. And THEN we cut to 3PO and R2 on the ship.

It's fun as a curio just to see how it played, but man, it'd add on another 20 minutes to the film and it accomplishes nothing. Or at least nothing that isn't accomplished in the final edit in a much more efficient and entertaining way.

And I'm betting George knew that and it always rankled him.

 

[batguy]

From what I've read, the additional Tatooine scenes with Luke were later script additions, mainly done to get Luke onto the screen a few minutes earlier. He's the main hero. Conventional filmmaking wisdom says that 15+ minutes is too long to wait in a popcorn movie. (And the original audience spent most of that time wondering if it was gonna be a whole movie about droids).

IIRC George heard some concern about the 15-minute wait from either the studio or maybe one of his filmmaker friends. They scripted the Anchorhead scenes to flesh out Luke's character but that was just taking advantage of the opportunity created by a structure issue.

When the movie was being put together, Marcia agreed with George's original instinct. Let the movie flow along with the droids and don't introduce Luke before necessary. So they cut the stuff back out.

 

[Psab keel]

When you consider that the droids essentially lead you on the journey it may not be the conventional method most films use to introduce characters but narratively it makes sense. The droids are with Leia on her ship and then lead to Luke, who then is met by Obi-Wan, who both hitch a ride from Han and Chewie and then they get sucked into the Death Star and when they escape from there they finally meet the Rebel forces to culminate in the final battle. Each event leads to the next all in the service of getting the Rebels to attack the Death Star. There's little to no fat on this script and that's part of what makes it so spectacular all these decades later because everything that's there is left with a purpose.

From a character perspective I love the Anchorhead scenes and Tosche Station, but for pacing I totally agree with their omission. It would be confusing to intercut those scenes into the movie and I've seen it done and it really boggs down the pace not to mention they don't add much in the way of serving the overall story of blowing up the Death Star. They establish Luke well enough in the final cut of the movie where the Anchorhead scenes feel repetitive and you're not missing any crucial information by their departure. You can follow the inherent logic where George was using his love of documentary style to follow the droids who pick up people on their journey.

 

[Solo4114]

When you consider that the droids essentially lead you on the journey it may not be the conventional method most films use to introduce characters but narratively it makes sense. The droids are with Leia on her ship and then lead to Luke, who then is met by Obi-Wan, who both hitch a ride from Han and Chewie and then they get sucked into the Death Star and when they escape from there they finally meet the Rebel forces to culminate in the final battle. Each event leads to the next all in the service of getting the Rebels to attack the Death Star. There's little to no fat on this script and that's part of what makes it so spectacular all these decades later because everything that's there is left with a purpose.

From a character perspective I love the Anchorhead scenes and Tosche Station, but for pacing I totally agree with their omission. It would be confusing to intercut those scenes into the movie and I've seen it done and it really boggs down the pace not to mention they don't add much in the way of serving the overall story of blowing up the Death Star. They establish Luke well enough in the final cut of the movie where the Anchorhead scenes feel repetitive and you're not missing any crucial information by their departure. You can follow the inherent logic where George was using his love of documentary style to follow the droids who pick up people on their journey.

I feel like the Anchorhead stuff is very similar to the Han and Jabba scene. It's not as literally repetitive (that scene, at least as I remember, has literal lines repeated from the Greedo scene), but it's similarly superfluous in terms of adding nothing to the plot and not much to the characters. The Han and Jabba stuff adds literally nothing you don't already know about Han and merely puts a face to Jabba. The Anchorhead stuff shows Luke as even more kinda pathetic, and as much more of a wide-eyed dreamer. That might work in a story where, over a longer period of time, we see him grow into a hardened warrior, but in the film, the journey needs to be a bit shorter, actually.

One thing worth pointing out is just how masterful the pacing is of the original. There's no fat in the film, but there are clear spaces where the action has a chance to breathe. This is even more noticeable in contrast with JJ's films which are wall-to-wall action. I can think of literally one scene in TFA where the action takes a pause and we get half a tic for exposition and context. ANH, on the other hand, has several sequences where the film takes a moment to pause and let the characters just, you know, be characters in the midst of all this.

Think about TFA and try to find moments like: Luke having dinner with his family and looking out over the homestead; Ben explaining the Force to Luke; Ben comforting Luke after he finds the ruined homestead; the discussion of the purpose of the Death Star among the Imperials; Luke training on the Falcon; Luke and Han making a plan to rescue Leia; Leia comforting Luke after Ben's death; Luke and Han talking about Leia after the TIE fighters are driven off; Luke trying to convince Han to stay and then Leia comforting Luke. All of those moments allow for the film to breathe, for the action to pause, which, in turn, makes the action sequences more impactful and exciting when they happen. When it's just a non-stop, wall-to-wall action sequence that flows from one to the next, punctuated by people speaking rapid-fire, the whole thing just blurs together and no moment really stands out. You don't have memories of specific sequences; you just remember "Uh...I....watched a movie?"

That's how I feel about JJ's Trek films, too. I can't tell you WTF happened in any of them other than the broad overview of the plot and maybe a vague reference to this or that sequence. ("Uh...there was an ice monster chasing Kirk and then he met old Spock? And I think he met Scotty immediately after that or something?") I have no memory of Into Darkness other than "It's Khan, but you don't know it except everyone knows it, and then the good guys win and Kirk almost dies in a mirror version of the scene in the original where Spock died. Except Kirk lives and...they save the day. Or something."

 

[batguy]

The lack of breathing space in modern stuff is everyone's fault. Script & editors too. Those scenes are easier to remove when they aren't integrated into the plot or aren't conveying very necessary information.

I have tried script writing before. It's difficult to nail scenes like that. There's a tendency to fall into motionless characters having conversations which is boring. (see also: SW prequels) You usually want some amount of movement/action/pacing but not too much. What's going on needs to have some relevance to the rest of the movie. It has to mix with the emotions of the conversation and not contradict them. Etc.

 

[Jaitea]

I can think of literally one scene in TFA where the action takes a pause and we get half a tic for exposition and context.

Totally agree, & when/if JJ does pause for a second, the camera still moves, does he ever lock the camera off & step back from it?…it’s always moving

J

 

[Cephus]

The old EU was garbage mostly. There were some books that were kinda ok, and a few that were great. The Zahn trilogy was excellent and remains entertaining today. The Jedi Academy trilogy was...meh. Most of what came after that was at best mediocre and at worst hot garbage. When they nuked the whole thing, I laughed because I'd given up on it right around when the Black Fleet Crisis came out. The writers were too beholden to recreating the past films and never let the characters really grow or change. Their circumstances might change, but they might as well have been frozen in amber in 1983.

I loved the Brian Daley Solo series, loved the Zahn books, but most of the rest were pretty forgettable. Stackpole's X-wing books were good, too. It was clear he'd played the games.

I liked some of the old books too, especially the ones that you listed. The problem is, I never considered them canon and I don't think anyone else should either. They are side stories that happen within the Star Wars universe but don't mean anything except between their own covers. The movies are the movies. Everything else is something else. It's all just someone else's take on the universe. It solve a whole lot of problems that way.

 

[Psab keel]

ADHD film making. No restraint. No pace other than full throttle. Direct copying instead of cleverly paying homage with subtlety. Caricature in place of character and convoluted plot devoid of any meaning. So sychophantically eager to please he wont take any genuine risks. Yeah I'd say that about sums up JJ'S style.

 

[Axlotl]

I thought Super 8 was paced well.

 

[scarf man]

Sooo… back on topic. What’s the over under on Disney releasing the originals after uncle George kicks the bucket?

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

The Zahn trilogy was excellent and remains entertaining today.

Have to disagree. A lot of what I -- and, I'm willing to argue, many -- liked about it was it was the first new Star Wars in several years, at a time when it seemed there never would be any new Star Wars ever again. None of the established characters "sounded" right to me. I liked the new characters he introduced, though, and want to see them brought into the canon (and, speaking of HttE characters brought into the canon, Thrawn needs to be re-voiced -- I desperately want him played by Julian Sands). There were beats that resonated and still do, but three-quarters of the trilogy was pretty meh.

The Jedi Academy trilogy was...meh.

Right with you there. Best thing it did was introduce Daala -- albeit badly. Worst thing it did was have the New Republic panic over a "fleet" of three Star Destroyers. I cannot eyeroll hard enough.

Most of what came after that was at best mediocre and at worst hot garbage. When they nuked the whole thing, I laughed because I'd given up on it right around when the Black Fleet Crisis came out.

That's the one that almost made me quit, too. Only positive thing I liked about it was the inclusion of grown-up Cindel Towani.

The writers were too beholden to recreating the past films and never let the characters really grow or change. Their circumstances might change, but they might as well have been frozen in amber in 1983.

I'll respectfully disagree with that. The Courtship of Princess Leia made Han face the prospect of not being with Leia, which he figured he was just too awesome for her to even consider anyone else -- not really -- and had to step up and show how he felt about her. Tatooine Ghost had Leia discover Anakin Skywalker and have to try to reconcile that with the cyborg enforcer of the Emperor's Will who tortured her. Luke went through a lot with Mara. There were, as you said, way too many offerings written by people for whom the characters obviously only existed as they had been at some particular point in the OT. But blow away the chaff, and there was a lot of good growth and evolution in there. Before they tanked it with the Fate of the Jedi series. There are a few Star Wars authors I'll read anything by. There are a few I'm wary of but will take a look before passing judgment. There is one who I will skip every time. Christie Golden. She wrote the majority of that series' books and they're borderline unreadable. Dark Disciple took the fate of an interesting character from the cartoons that had already been sketched out in treatment form by Filoni and butchered it into banal textual quicksand.

I will never understand why they brought her forward into the new canon era, but not, say, Matt Stover. And I very much wish Aaron Allston and Brian Daley hadn't died...

I loved the Brian Daley Solo series, loved the Zahn books, but most of the rest were pretty forgettable. Stackpole's X-wing books were good, too. It was clear he'd played the games.

His Gary Stu was too distracting. I preferred Allston's outings in that setting. And I have wished for ages that we could have seen what Brian Daley and James Luceno could have done together in Star Wars. The two of them did wonderful things to Robotech under their joint pseudonym.

For those unfamiliar, Luke is out fixing vaporators with a treadwell droid, sees a space battle, then rushes back to Tosche Station to tell all his friends who make fun of him. Then Biggs shows up, defends him, they have a race which Luke wins, and Biggs tells him to not worry about the jackasses he hangs out with and to get off planet.. Then says he's jumping ship to join the Rebellion. And THEN we cut to 3PO and R2 on the ship.

It's fun as a curio just to see how it played, but man, it'd add on another 20 minutes to the film and it accomplishes nothing. Or at least nothing that isn't accomplished in the final edit in a much more efficient and entertaining way.

From what I've read, the additional Tatooine scenes with Luke were later script additions, mainly done to get Luke onto the screen a few minutes earlier. He's the main hero. Conventional filmmaking wisdom says that 15+ minutes is too long to wait in a popcorn movie. (And the original audience spent most of that time wondering if it was gonna be a whole movie about droids).

IIRC George heard some concern about the 15-minute wait from either the studio or maybe one of his filmmaker friends. They scripted the Anchorhead scenes to flesh out Luke's character but that was just taking advantage of the opportunity created by a structure issue.

When the movie was being put together, Marcia agreed with George's original instinct. Let the movie flow along with the droids and don't introduce Luke before necessary. So they cut the stuff back out.

Luke actually doesn't appear until closer to 45 minutes in. Fox didn't like that and told him to add a scene or sequence that introduced the hero earlier. He knew that whole sequence bogged the story down. Some speculate he deliberately dragged it out to slow the movie's pacing down so much they relented and let him cut it again.

I also like it as establishment and character development -- not just for Luke, but for Biggs, who, as he appears in the released cut, appears to have some history with Luke, but there's a lot we're obviously missing. Over in my ridiculously massive rewrite, I have that scene an episode prior, where it organically fits in the narrative and gives Biggs time to jump ship and find some Rebels. And also adds context to Luke's rejoinder when Owen cajoles him with "only one season more". As we've seen and been told how long it's been since at least Biggs left, and thus how long Owen's been trying to distract, deflect, stall, and otherwise string Luke along... before we later find out why.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Sooo… back on topic. What’s the over under on Disney releasing the originals after uncle George kicks the bucket?

I'd say some where in the area of "no chance in hell". They're even less likely to interfere with the man's "vision" after he's gone than they have shown themselves to be now.

 

[Psab keel]

I'd imagine that after George is gone they'd be willing to do just about anything to make a buck. It's not like they respected his ideas enough to develop his ST treatments into films and canned those immediately after the sale to Disney was finalized, so I don't think they care about honoring his vision so much as making a boatload of money off what was once his property. Whether they violate his wishes became an irrelevant point the second George signed those contracts.

Now the question that really remains, is there money in releasing properly restored original theatrical cuts to fans? Ultimately the only way they would even considering doing that is if there's cash to be made. With physical media going by the wayside I don't know how they could monetize it. Plus I doubt it's on their focus group's radar. Even if it was would it be some sort of pay per view content on Disney+? If they could find a way to monetize it, sure it will happen, but otherwise without the prospect of green, it will never be anything more than a fan's desperate hope.

I personally would love a properly restored 4K version of the original theatrical cuts of the three films on physical discs, but the likelyhood of that happening is slim to none at this point. George had the advantage of being able to release and rerelease the same 3 films on new media every few years and he made a killing every time. Disney doesn't have that luxury because technology has evolved far past the point of needing constant upgrading. Plus for a modern audience, why would they go "backward?" Criterion is all about film preservation. Disney is all about rewriting film history, even their own. If Kennedy was ousted from her position and Filoni took her place in the wake of George's passing, Filoni would honor his late mentor's wishes and not bother to restore the originals. As much as fans look to Filoni as the next logical heir apparent, he's the direct protege of Lucas himself, so the chances that he'd make a similar creative decision in honor of his mentor is pretty high.