The Ultimate Luke ANH Graflex Research & Discussion Thread

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teecrooz

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
The rivet sizes are correct. What you see there is a work in progress and not every view was aligned correctly.
Here's that detail again:

View attachment 1427511

When the update is done I will also update the blueprint accordingly and post some new findings with regards to grip sizes and positions.

Roy
I still see rivets larger than those outlines. You can see wider margins around the perimeter.

3962B041-932F-426F-8163-AB3A591E9C4C.jpeg


If you could use this image you provided to me when we first discussed it, but shift the rivets on the right downward so that the holes line up and the edge of the rivet is closer to the grip, I think you might see it.

3C4A4D31-3AEF-43DD-8907-C0A057D7BD72.jpeg


Also remember that I found 5.5mm rivets at one point. Dialing up one size due to shadows and dialing down the other due to the image blowout... they are more likely the same size.
 
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IronDestinyProps

Active Member
I'll have another look at it teecrooz!
But judging from this picture, I still get the feeling they are different in size (even considering the blowout).
I am inclined to agree, but I am open to new ideas/findings. That photo you shared seems to show the left side rivets scrunched closer together than the right side ones which seems to indicate the left may be just a tad smaller than the right, but they might be a tad bigger than the 2.4 we originally thought?
 

roygilsing

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Screenshot_7.jpg


Here's an image with the two rivets with 5.0mm head diameter. I don't think I will find these, because the 2.4mm rivets I can get have 4.5mm head diameter. And there don't seem t be rivet sizes in between 2.4mm and 3.0mm. Of course each manufacturer has a different head size, since they're not specified.

I'm really running to the limitations of my software with regards to reverse engineer based on these blurry pictures.
 

teecrooz

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Thanks for doing that Roy. I know we’re talking fractions of a millimeter, but when I see that new image, the hole and edge appear to line up much better. At least to me.

The 3.0mm rivets with 6mm rivet heads I have here measure in closer to 5.75mm with my calipers. I think its coming together for me.
 
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Gregatron

Sr Member
Yes, now that we have both the side and top-view photos of the prop from the reference shoot, it should surely be easier to compare and scale both sets of rivets.
 

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AstroZopyros

Active Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
That's what I've been wondering looking at the Tunisa picture. It looks like the edge of the rivet is bent down slightly along the flash's edge.
Which I find interesting. I have actually drilled these holes in a replica lower, and I drilled into the bottom plate because it was too close to it! :unsure:
 

BENnotKENOBI

New Member
Which I find interesting. I have actually drilled these holes in a replica lower, and I drilled into the bottom plate because it was too close to it! :unsure:
Which gives me more reason to doubt the bracket explanation.

My theory: (bare with me, it's a lot of speculation)
Roger Christian has told the story of how he built the first prop. I know he isn't the most reliable, but some of the details must be correct. He said that he found several in that box, and slapped the grips and bubble strip on the first one. But I wonder how many of those several were actually 3 cell flashes and how many were only 2 cells.

He then said he was instructed to add the D-ring; which means the grips were already on. I think this debunks the idea of why they just didn't put the grips over the holes. My thought (as has been discussed) is that they tried to attach the D-ring to the side. They may have even tried drilling holes and bending in a D-ring directly into the holes ala the MPP and Mk1. When that didn't work, they plugged the holes.

Now, why two rivets for each hole? I'd think larger rivets would go to far under the grips, and push them up (which, I imagine they removed one to attach the ring). Two rivets per each hole means a longer plug that wasn't as wide. These holes could also be from an attempt to add a spinning blade as suggested.

Now, for the next problem: Why use *that* one for the Hero? Well, Roger Christian said that he sent two to Tunisa. I wonder if there were *only* two 3 cells. He put both of them in the box to Tunisa, and they just grabbed the one with the rivets on set. The second ended up becoming the Elstree saber when they were filming back in London, and they realized they didn't need two Heros.

This is all speculation, but it fits all the facts that *I* know, and it makes sense to me.
 

Gregatron

Sr Member
Christian’s stories—due to either the erosion of memories over four decades’ time, or the need for a good story while giving interviews and whatnot—are not a good source of chronology and details on the prop’s construction, I think.

Do you remember in what order you assembled a particular prop or model from say, ten, or even five years ago? What problems you had, and what methods and materials you used? Or do you look at the completed item on a shelf, and simply remember whether the build was easy or hard?

Remembering the specific details of the decades-ago construction of one prop from one film in a career filled with many films and many props seems questionable. And, given the public interest in this particular prop, fudging the details with colorful embellishments (like, say, opening up a dusty box of flashguns while lit from above with heavenly light and hearing a choir) also seems likely.

As with a lot of stories heard on press tours and in making-of documentaries years after the fact, people in the film business have a tendency to pick a few key stories or details and then embellish them, since they have to repeat these stories over and over and over again while also trying to make them seem fresh and interesting each time.
 

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AnubisGuard

Sr Member
And, given the public interest in this particular prop, fudging the details with colorful embellishments (like, say, opening up a dusty box of flashguns while lit from above with heavenly light and hearing a choir) also seems likely.

Remember the "Robertson screw?" And how he swore there were no rivets on the prop because he "didn't own a rivet gun?"

Yeah.
 

IronDestinyProps

Active Member
View attachment 1428997
Roy, does it align with this image? Assuming a 6mm diameter, I see a gap that must be around 1.5mm between the two.
I would agree, it seems like there is a slight bit of space between those rivets, but it may also be a trick of the light there. The shadows between the rivets may be creating an optical allusion to a degree. Will be interested to see if roygilsing has managed to compare his 3D model with this detail.
 

v312

Active Member
One think I tend to believe in the story is that he put the t-tracks and the bubbles and only when that design was accepted came the question how it is going to be attached on the belt and the D-ring was put in place.
Which is interesting, because the track appears to be on top of the rivets and also the Elstree prop and on the promo pictures we can see they did some rough machining on the lower part presumably to make the track glue stick better.
So it's either another prop that got used , or they completely re-did it at some point after the grips started falling off
 

BENnotKENOBI

New Member
Well, what I was trying to get at is there may have been only two full flashguns. That might explain why they weren't too concerned about the rivets on the side. Especially since it was so hard to see.

They were right, how long did it take the community to spot them? 40 years?

But what are we certain they had during the production of ANH? One full 3 cell for the Hero, one full 3 cell for the Elstree prop, an early Folmer red button and glass eye for the stunt, and a few clamps. I'm sure I'm missing something.

EDIT: Sorry, IronDestinyProps already suggested this the other day and I missed it.
 
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