Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)

You don't see the irony in that entire statement? Star Wars is basically a fairy tale and having it end on a sour note kills all the joy and magic from it which was it's entire function as a story. Which is why I am often baffled at your incessant love of it if all you want to see is the characters live in misery. Sure there needs to be conflict but there also needs to be a thread of hope running throughout the story. Welcome to the post modern view of Star Wars where all joy is sucked out and replaced with cheap jokes and contrarian ideas that mock the tropes everyone loves about a fun escapist adventure film.

And yet people wonder why I and others like me are fed up with it all?

Fairy tales eventually end on a high note. But not before things get really dark. The problem is, for you, you've set in your mind that the end of this fairy tale ended with ROTJ. So for you it feels for you that it has ended on a sour note. But I've accepted George changes his mind a lot, and so the happy ever after ending is going to come at the end of TROS now instead of ROTJ.

Sure Star Wars is a fun escapist film, but only part of the time. In between there's some seriously dark stuff... very dark, tragic, dramatic stuff. Like.....
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And that's only the highlights


EDIT....ugh I edit my post to correct some grammar and now some of the gifs aren't showing up properly
 
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Part of what made Star Wars so popular in 1977 was it's childish, almost naive, optimism.
Cinema at the time was all dystopias and antiheroes, like Logan's Run and The Dirty Dozen and Death Wish and Dirty Harry.
Stuff that reminded you that the world was horrible and people are horrible - even the heros were horrible.
Star Wars was intentionally the antithesis to that. It was the punk rock of cinema, in that it reminded us that movies can be fun, like The Ramones reminded us that rock and roll could be fun.

People who didn't live through those times, who grew up with the prequels as their Star Wars, will never understand Star Wars the way those of us who experienced it in 1977 do. The Star Wars they experienced wasn't a punk rock fairy tale, it was a jam band soap opera.
We'll never see eye-to-eye because our definitions of Star Wars are fundamentally different.

We - at least I - want my Star Wars to be pure escapist fantasy, where good is good and bad is bad and good always wins.
They want their Star Wars to reflect the real world, with morally ambiguous characters and commentary on current events.

I don't have a point, those thoughts just came to me and I wanted to get them out. Carry on.
 
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Part of what made Star Wars so popular in 1977 was it's childish, almost naive, optimism.
Cinema at the time was all dystopias and antiheroes, like Logan's Run and The Dirty Dozen and Death Wish and Dirty Harry.
Stuff that reminded you that the world was horrible and people are horrible - even the heros were horrible.
Star Wars was intentionally the antithesis to that. It was the punk rock of cinema, in that it reminded us that movies can be fun, like The Ramones reminded us that rock and roll could be fun.

People who didn't live through those times, who grew up with the prequels as their Star Wars, will never understand Star Wars the way those of us who experienced it in 1977 do. The Star Wars they experienced wasn't a punk rock fairy tale, it was a jam band soap opera.
We'll never see eye-to-eye because our definitions of Star Wars are fundamentally different.

We - at least I - want my Star Wars to be pure escapist fantasy, where good is good and bad is bad and good always wins.
They want their Star Wars to reflect the real world, with morally ambiguous characters and commentary on current events.

I don't have a point, those thoughts just came to me and I wanted to get them out. Carry on.

Maybe that's just it. Fans like you and I want escapism and fans like Joek3rr want the realism of modern life. I have enough depressing things going on in my life that I could use a distraction every once in a while. I don't need that kind of negativity in Star Wars. I'm not suggesting that it has to be dumb storytelling either, because there can be a balance between optimism and the realities we all face.

Holy Crap Axlotl I think you beautifully said the very thing I have been trying to figure out in my head about why this new trilogy feels so out of place to me in comparison to the originals. Ever since TFA came out, THIS was the reason why it never felt right to me.

The new Star Wars films are trying to embrace modern realism as their storytelling method when Star Wars was up until that point meant to be hopeful escapism. No wonder I can't stand them! They were never meant for me.
 
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I watched that interview with Charlie Rose a few times. I respect George and am grateful for his creations even if I don't like his later stuff. Though it's clear (at least in that interview) and the premiere of TFA that he is incredibly bitter about the whole thing. I mean you don't make such a politically charged statement like that unless there is an awful lot of resentment in it. Not just towards Disney but at the fans. He's said repeatedly that he retired because all the fans did is hate him for his choices.

I mean on the one hand many of us (myself included at times so I'm not beyond blame) were vicious to him in our reactions. I also think the flip side of that is that he could very well have just moved on from Star Wars and made his independent art house films which I have been dying to see since 2005 when he said he was done with Star Wars. Now we will likely never see them. I'd always hoped that there was still some genius rebel film maker left in him and that his innovations would still push the boundaries of what was possible. I think it's this aspect alone that I have admired him for more that I ever have for his actual body of work.

Plus he was also bitter at Disney for not using his treatments so he likened it to a divorce. I mean the guy clearly has a very complicated relationship to his creation. I personally don't think Disney or Kathleen Kennedy have been very good stewards of Lucasfilm and I often wonder if Lucas has kind of cut ties with her over it. Which would be interesting because they have been friends for 40 plus years.
Beautifully said Psab keel . I share the exact same sentiments. I wish he had never sold it and kept making movies BESIDES JUST Star Wars. Whatever my thoughts are of the prequels, I'll always see George as that groundbreaking rebel filmmaker who against all odds made a "wacky" space adventure that turned Hollywood on its head. Lucasfilm was a testament to what that visionary spirit can achieve. Now sadly, or rather ironically, it's just another part of a soulless Hollywood machine.
 
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Maybe that's just it. Fans like you and I want escapism and fans like Joek3rr want the realism of modern life. I have enough depressing things going on in my life that I could use a distraction every once in a while. I don't need that kind of negativity in Star Wars. I'm not suggesting that it has to be dumb storytelling either, because there can be a balance between optimism and the realities we all face.

Holy Crap Axlotl I think you beautifully said the very thing I have been trying to figure out in my head about why this new trilogy feels so out of place to me in comparison to the originals. Ever since TFA came out, THIS was the reason why it never felt right to me.

The new Star Wars films are trying to embrace modern realism as their storytelling method when Star Wars was up until that point meant to be hopeful escapism. No wonder I can't stand them! They were never meant for me.

I think JJ honestly tried to make a film that would appeal to all Star Wars fans, I just think there were some fundamentals he didn't understand. Such as the fairy tale aspect, and the hero's journey - which I can't for the life of me figure out how he didn't know about those things, they've been well documented. TFA could have been a stronger film, but it wasn't awful. It wasn't a deconconstruction.

Speaking of deconstruction... I don't know if RJ just understood Stars Wars even less than JJ, or if he purposefully went out of his way to ruin it. Whatever the case, he's steered Star Wars out of our wheelhouse and into the PT generation's. What should have - could have - been a franchise with a demographic of "E for everyone", is now for... I don't know who it's for... not us. PT fans seem to like it, so I guess it's for them.

It's just a shame that Disney allowed RJ to alienate half the fan base.
 
I was hesitant when I first heard the ST announced and felt it had better be good if they were going to go through the trouble of bringing the OT characters back after what I felt was a worthy conclusion to the story. For me TFA was initially passable. Not great by any stretch, but decent. Though even when I first saw it I knew that it would all hinge on what came next and that the flaws of 7 would be either fixed or magnified to the point where I would know definitively whether I would continue watching them.

It's crazy how distinct each trilogy is often such a product of it's time though up until now it at least attempted to be about more than just the scant references to the politics of the day. George may not have always succeeded but he tried to make Star Wars about the great mysteries of life. Bill Moyers said it best in Empire of Dreams about how timing is everything in art.

Sadly I think this new trilogy says more about the time we are currently living in than it really does about things that are timeless.
 
Maybe that's just it. Fans like you and I want escapism and fans like Joek3rr want the realism of modern life. I have enough depressing things going on in my life that I could use a distraction every once in a while. I don't need that kind of negativity in Star Wars. I'm not suggesting that it has to be dumb storytelling either, because there can be a balance between optimism and the realities we all face.

Holy Crap Axlotl I think you beautifully said the very thing I have been trying to figure out in my head about why this new trilogy feels so out of place to me in comparison to the originals. Ever since TFA came out, THIS was the reason why it never felt right to me.

The new Star Wars films are trying to embrace modern realism as their storytelling method when Star Wars was up until that point meant to be hopeful escapism. No wonder I can't stand them! They were never meant for me.

I love Star Wars because it's both an analogue of life and it's struggles. And it's escapism.

For every one of these
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There's one of these
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And some of this
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Or for one of these
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There's one of these
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That's why I love Star Wars
 
I think JJ honestly tried to make a film that would appeal to all Star Wars fans, I just think there were some fundamentals he didn't understand. Such as the fairy tale aspect, and the hero's journey - which I can't for the life of me figure out how he didn't know about those things, they've been well documented. TFA could have been a stronger film, but it wasn't awful. It wasn't a deconconstruction.

Speaking of deconstruction... I don't know if RJ just understood Stars Wars even less than JJ, or if he purposefully went out of his way to ruin it. Whatever the case, he's steered Star Wars out of our wheelhouse and into the PT generation's. What should have - could have - been a franchise with a demographic of "E for everyone", is now for... I don't know who it's for... not us. PT fans seem to like it, so I guess it's for them.

It's just a shame that Disney allowed RJ to alienate half the fan base.

There's PT fans that dislike TLJ too.
 
Pretty much what Psab keel and Axlotl said just above... Star Wars came along as a paean to simpler days, when the good guys and bad guys were clear and unambiguous. Before George read the Power of Myth or Hero With A Thousand Faces, he still knew basic fairy tale structures -- questing knights, the Arthur Legend, the Maiden in the Tower, slaying the dragon, etc,. Anyone who knows the originalest translations of Æsop or the Grimms knows there's some seriously dark **** in a lot of those fables, and there are echoes in even as bright and innocent a fairy tale as Star Wars was. Luke didn't just defy his uncle and leave -- the only family he'd ever known was killed and burned by the Empire. Leia was tortured by Vader and then Tarkin destroyed her entire planet as an object lesson and intimidation tactic. A subplot thread that was in until very late drafts of the script was Motti urging Tarkin to use the Death Star to overthrow the Emperor and take over, himself.

Leaving aside issues I have with some of Campbell's more dated notions, or how he used such a broad brush in places as to render things almost meaningless... Yeah, George took things to darker, more symbolic places in Empire and Jedi after he decided to do more Star Wars. A lot of that was that he shared his ideas around a writers' round table with Leigh, Irv, Larry, and Richard, respectively. There was a lot of back and forth and refinement and he could reference some trope and the others would work it into decent story. But when George got to the Prequels, many balls were dropped.

Mainly, in forgetting what he'd laid out in his old notes and how that utterly changed the tone of the story, mixed up with being the solo scripter and his own (previously acknowledged) weakness in that area undercutting the presentation of the story elements he ended up going with, whether part of his actual original premise or changed. Obi-Wan was to be the focal character, and he's a much more straightforward hero than supposed-to-be-supporting-character-Anakin. That phase of th estory was more of a tale about how even always making the right choices is no guarantee you'll win. His arc ending on a down note, though, is okay, because it's not the end of the story...

...Just as Luke and his father defeating the Emperor wasn't the end, either. Leaving off right at the moment of Luke's apotheosis is bad narrative if the story is to continue. He needs to either ascend to a heavenly state (Heracles getting his mortal half burned away and taking his place as a god, Siddhartha achieving Nirvana, etc.) or come back to the ordinary world from his revelatory experience. As I've said before, it's fine for Our Heroes to have their victory erode from the returning impact of that world's ordinary-ness. We just need to see it. "Episode VII -- everything's gone to ****. Anyway, moving on..." is not really a narratively effective way to bridge the gap. Unless it's supposed to be a mystery we unravel along with the main character(s), which is not the case in the Sequels. Everyone seems to know what's going on except us.
 
Okay I'm going try my hand at using spoiler tags.

The first picture is descriptions from back of Ben's and Rey's Black Series boxes.

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And a picture of some ships, that look like they are made by Matchbox or Hot Wheels.


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One of the things I really loved about the Thrawn trilogy was that Luke's arc was him trying to reconcile his need to rebuild the Jedi order and yet not having the confidence in himself to accomplish such an important task. Saving his father was one thing, but rebuilding the Jedi literally all by himself was too monumental of a task when he felt like he was merely still a padawan. Much of that uncertainty was a nice way to show how his rushed training had been detrimental to him in the long term, even if it served him in saving his father. I always felt it was a nuanced continuation of his natural character progression. While he sought to use what he had learned he also found that he had to discover things on his own and eventually he does find some solace and confidence in training Leia and even helping Mara Jade.

Not that I mean to derail the thread but Inquisitor Peregrinus your statements about Luke's apotheosis not being fully addressed in Return of the Jedi made me think of this. It's one of the reasons I want to re-explore that trilogy again to see if that element holds up as well as I remember.

To me that still feels more optimistic than what the films gave us. Not that I needed these movies to be a film adaptation of Heir to the Empire or anything but I just got more hope from those books than I did the movies.
 
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I actually came into Star Wars with the prequels so actually liked both the original and the prequels (although I agree that 2 was ehh. I love the sand ironically now though).

One thing I definitely noticed is how culturally important Star Wars is to US culture. In Japan, it’s definitely fun but in an action movie sort of way but I don’t think the original trilogy really resonated with the audience as much as it did in the US. It was really notable when I took a college class in fairy tales and Star Wars was brought up as the last modern fairy tale. Made me realize how significant and important this series is to fans and thus, why the fan backlash was pretty extreme even with the prequels.
 
Ep VIII definitely missed the mark in not making the plight of the main characters dark enough imo. Although storywise the Resistance maybe on the backfoot, our main trio is anything but.

Finn - beat Phasma and still alive with the Resistance still alive and active
Poe - has a minor setback in 8 but going to be a commander and still a top pilot
Rey - has beaten Kylo (again), killed Snoke, strongest and only Jedi left

This in comparison to where the OT characters were left after empire

Han - frozen in carbonite and taken to Jabba
Leia - lost her love, empire is closing in and stronger than ever
Luke - lost his hand, was played with by Vader (showing his initial win was a fluke), Emperor still exists

It’s because it seems hopeless that their eventual victory (and the fact that they work hard towards it) also is so rewarding.

Although I’m bashing on VIII, I do think it would have been a good movie if it wasn’t Star Wars or if it was a standalone not related to the main trilogy (the Holdo maneuver was still bad to introduce)
 
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