Defined Vader ANH saber thread, lets nail this sucker!

Discussion in 'Star Wars Costumes and Props' started by paul n, Jan 28, 2002.

  1. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    Hi All!

    Some one suggested creating a new thread to go over the details of both the ANH and ESB Vader sabers so I thought I'd give it a go. This thread will be about the ANH version. Many of the details are still undetermined and hopefully this thread will help us all figure them out. I'll try and update the info as we go along so the top post stays up to date.

    [​IMG]
    http://www.printroom.com/EditAlbumPhoto.asp?userid=paul%2Dn&album_id=49424&image_id=11

    OK, lets start with the Toughest part to nail down of this saber, the CLAMP!

    Some where along the line the lever mechanism on the clamp was broken (most likely, any way) and the clamp was held together another way. It appears a bolt was used to tighten the clamp, however, when you look at the below pic, there appears to be something coming out of the hole and going under the lever (which as been reattached to the side of the clamp) maybe a piece of wire. To support the bolt theory, there seems to be the shadow of a slot on the top of the "head" of the disk on the side opposite the lever. Also to the left of the "bolt" you can see a small hole has been drilled, the purpose of which is unknown. There is a bubble strip in the clamp. The clamp is located at about 7 o'clock on the flash looking down the flash from the bottom and using the button assembly as 12 o'clock.

    [​IMG]
    http://www.printroom.com/EditAlbumPhoto.asp?userid=paul%2Dn&album_id=49424&image_id=8

    [​IMG]
    http://www.printroom.com/EditAlbumPhoto.asp?userid=paul%2Dn&album_id=49424&image_id=9

    The GRIPS:

    The grips are aproximately 3 5/8" long to about 3 11/16" long and are positioned in the ODD clock positions (1,3,5,7,9 and 11 o'clock)

    [​IMG]
    http://www.printroom.com/EditAlbumPhoto.asp?userid=paul%2Dn&album_id=49424&image_id=5

    The grips start right at the edge of the coin-edge of the end cap:

    [​IMG]
    http://www.printroom.com/EditAlbumPhoto.asp?userid=paul%2Dn&album_id=49424&image_id=10

    Oh, the clamp is about 9/16" to 5/8" from the ends of the grips.

    There is a hole drilled through the Shroud just behind the thumb-screw and a D-ring, about the size of the one used on Lukes ESB saber, was mounted there.

    Hope this helps, I'll try and put one of these together for the ESB version some time soon.

    Now, discuss!
     
  2. Quest100

    Quest100 New Member

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    Paul, you rule! This is exactly the info I needed! It was hard to go through that other thread. Thanks! [​IMG]

    -Jon
     
  3. E.D.C. Studios

    E.D.C. Studios Well-Known Member

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    Major detail on the clamp....


    The side plates are not tapered, they are a perfect rectangle although the clamp itself still has the taper, this was a variation of the MPP clamp itself.

    Paul I would not nitpick about the lever too much, no telling if it broke before or after filming, personally I am leaving mine intact, with a flat rivet head place on the opposite side represent that littel disc opposite the lever
     
  4. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    Ageed Chip!

    The purpose of this thread is just to collect all the known info in one place and to iron out some of the details.

    My self, I'm gonna do what Cliff did with his MPP and just put a disk on the side oposite the lever and leave the lever it's self intact (the ESb is another think altogether though, but that's a whole other thread [​IMG] ). I've done the whole bolt thing and reatached the lever with a sheet metal screw and it looks rough that way, I want my saber to be nice and clean. Alot of people though, like total Movie acuracy, so this thread might serve them in ataining a higher level of accuracy.

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  5. Oohyeah KL

    Oohyeah KL Well-Known Member

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    WHich begs the question:

    How can I get hold of one of those flat discs that go on the sidebar on the opposite side of the lever?

    And how should I create the little dot that's beside it?

    I also must say that I still think the Chronicles pic looks a bit distorted (like it's horizontally compressed, making it slightly stubbier), so if you calculated the lengths of the grips based on the diameter of the shroud, that might make it off.
    How about calculating the grip length based on the length of the clamp along the tube? That way, it doesn't matter if the pic is distorted cos we're measuring along the same horizontal axis.
     
  6. E.D.C. Studios

    E.D.C. Studios Well-Known Member

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    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Oohyeah KL wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>How can I get hold of one of those flat discs that go on the sidebar on the opposite side of the lever?
    And how should I create the little dot that's beside it?</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

    I used a flat headed Rivet, just go to you local Harware store, they should carry them, there are sized perfectly.

    Hmmm, maybe I should include this in my conversion kits???

    As for the little dot, its probably a nick or scratch, I would personally leave it out
     
  7. gavidoc

    gavidoc Well-Known Member

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    in regard to the broken lever.

    I believe what you are seeing paul is the actual threaded rod on still attached to the lever and is going into the hole to keep the lever from moving around.

    I don't have a clamp yet, but they either attached the lever thru the hole int he top or they screwed it on from the other side.

    And yes, I'll be doing that to mine. [​IMG]
     
  8. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Oohyeah KL wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>I also must say that I still think the Chronicles pic looks a bit distorted (like it's horizontally compressed, making it slightly stubbier), so if you calculated the lengths of the grips based on the diameter of the shroud, that might make it off.
    How about calculating the grip length based on the length of the clamp along the tube? That way, it doesn't matter if the pic is distorted cos we're measuring along the same horizontal axis.</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

    I did actually, that's how I know the pic on PoSW is a little off. When I calibrated the size of their pic to the width of the tube, the length of the clamp was off. I tried using the clamp as a guide and got 3 11/16". I then scanned in the same pic from my Chronicles book and calibrated the size to the tube width again and the clamp measured up exactly correctly this time. I then re-checked the grip measurments and got 3 11/16" on the outer grip and about 3 5/8" on one of the inner ones. The pic above is correct.

    The grey dot is a small hole next to the "disk".

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  9. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    Gav, I don't think so, the part protruding out from under the lever is smaller than the diameter of the hole. If the item was the original rod it should be the same size. if you look at the hole in the top of the lever, it's iether a screw ther or a continuation of the same object.

    I'm wondering if the disk is a bolt or just an anchor for a peice of wire thats holdiing the clamp together, kinda like the wire holding the gear to the clamp on the Obi' saber? (just a side note, it definietly a bolt on the ESB version)

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  10. SithKnightM

    SithKnightM New Member

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    How were you able to make such good zoom-in's on those images?
    Well, I would like to say that the length of the MPP clamp is longer than that of the Icons version, and so that's a detail that we should not overlook.
    Also, this type of MPP has only one ridge on the shroud, not two, as some of the other versions has.

    Regards.
     
  11. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    I scanned them in at 300x original size and worked with them and shrank them from there [​IMG]

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  12. Oohyeah KL

    Oohyeah KL Well-Known Member

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    EUREKA!!!!!

    I think I figured out quite possibly how the clamp was done.

    OK, this is my theory:

    The clamp was broken, in that the rod was broken, so they discarded the rod entirely.
    Now, they've got to hold the clamp together somehow, so, I think what they did was this:

    They got hold of a roughly 1" long nail-like rivet (with a flat head top, which is what you see on the other side), hammered or screwed it through the original hole through the 2 side bars, and then bent the end of the nail/rivet so that the clamp stays shut!!!!

    So the flat head disc you see on the other side is the head of the nail/rivet, and that wire-like thing you see next to the lever is actually the end of the nail/rivet!

    Then they just stuck the lever on!!

    So Paul, when you said, "let's nail this sucker", you subconsciously meant it literally!!! [​IMG]

    Anyway, it sounds right to me, and as Spock would say, that is only logical! [​IMG]
     
  13. SithKnightM

    SithKnightM New Member

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    I see. Can you tell me how I can use the free image-hosting service over at the printroom.com?

    Regards.
     
  14. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    KL, that ain't a bad theory at all!

    Hmmm. I wish we had better pics.

    Opinions any one?

    SithKnightM , you have to go sign up for the service and fill in some info. Making a gallerie is really easy. They alow you to browse your own files and selct the image right offf your hard drive then you just click send (or what ever it says) and it copies the pics off of you hard drive on to their server. Every thing has to be in jpg. format though no gif.'s.

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  15. TOKI

    TOKI Well-Known Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Oohyeah-

    I think you hit the nail on the head.

    If you look at the hole on the lever (and I do beleive that is what it is) the grey area you see is a continuation of the nail you see coming out of the hole on the clamp. Then notice that the lever has the same orientation of the nail as it comes out of the clamp. It runs in the same direction, kinda slanted up. Just as if the lever were stuck on right on the nail.

    Arthur
     
  16. SithKnightM

    SithKnightM New Member

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    Thanks for the reply. I have already registered and am now at a point where I need instructions on how to develop a gallery. All the options seems to point toward an "album," which you can create.
    Can you tell me how I can create a gallery?

    Regards.
     
  17. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    Another thing, the "disk" is much duller (like a carpentry nail would be) than the side bar. I've seen movie stills where you can even tell it's duller. Your theory is amking more and more sence. I'm thinking that when they went to give the ANH saber a make over for ESB (I think they used the same exact flash for both aNH and ESB versions) they looked at the nail and wen't "yuck" and replaced it with the brass bolt that's seen in ESB. This also helps back up my theory that there's no lever at all on the ESB version, it was probably glued to the nail (assuming that the nail theory is correct).

    I can't wait to hear what my fellow Vader obsessies think, Gav'? Chip? Chris?.

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  18. Oohyeah KL

    Oohyeah KL Well-Known Member

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    Toki - yes, I saw that too!!

    [​IMG]

    THe more I look at this pic, the more it looks like the end of the nail coming out from the sidebar hole, bent around the side bar, and with the lever stuck onto the end of the nail.
    And yes, you can even see the end of the nail through the hole of the lever itself, as Toki pointed out.

    Well, I'm glad you guys are liking the theory!!! It's not everyday that I go, "EUREKA!!!" [​IMG]

    And if that's really correct, I think I might actually do it this way, as it would be relatively simple... hmm.... [​IMG]
     
  19. Fatherless One

    Fatherless One Well-Known Member

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    Sorry guys,

    Just had to say WOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!

    Fedex have just delivered my two lamps, I'm off to the hardware store to get some of your Scotch tape KL, I'll be examining this thread very closely over the next hour or three.

    Happy days!
    Alan.
     
  20. Sluis Van Shipyards

    Sluis Van Shipyards Master Member

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    I would like to hear more about the clamp position. I still don't buy that it was intentionally set at the 7 o'clock position.
    Does anyone have an ICONS Vader saber (ducks thrown crap)? Even though they aren't entirely accurate, I would think something big like the clamp was put on in the correct position.
     
  21. jediscout

    jediscout Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    My Icons Vader has the clamp perfectly lined up with the 6 o'clock grip (with 12 o'clock grip on top, lined up with emitter d-ring).
     
  22. lonepigeon

    lonepigeon Sr Member

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    The clamp is at 7 o'clock in the movie as well. On purpose or not, I would guess it didn't move. Icons probably just put it at 6 to make it line up and seem right.

    The nail theory sounds plausible. One thing though, it doesn't seem like the lever would stay on too well with just glue- especially with half of it hanging off the edge. It would be easy for something to snag the lever and break it off.

    As the Obi-Wan saber has shown these pics are likely post production (at least mid production, hence the missing washer around the transistor).
     
  23. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    Sluis Van, don't bet on it. They took a TON of artistic license with their vader saber, the clamp has the wrong dimentions the end cap is wrong the bulb release is wrong even the lever position is wrong, and they had the same pics posted in this thread and probably more, better ones. Don't rely on Icons props for anything.

    That said, I'm not positive it was intentionaly off center. even when I have my replicas clamp tightened down preaty good it can still slide a bit. Also if it really is a bent nail holding it together there's probably not a ton of tension on the clamp. In favor of it being off center the Luke ANH saber had it clamp off center in the movie.

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  24. jediscout

    jediscout Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I wouldn't base anything off of the Icons sabre & consider it accurate.

    The clamp may have rotated during filming & ended up in the 7o'clock position. I've got mine set at the 7 position to reflect the picture.
     
  25. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    Chris, Yeah but if they filled the bottom of the lever with hot glue and stuck it on the nail it would be hard pressed to move. Also I have the lever on my current vader atatched to the side with a sheet metal screw and it's really not sticking out much especialy where its turned down a bit. The disk, what ever it is is seen through ou the movie. it's very visible in the first shots of vader on the blockade-runner and else where. I'm preaty sure the lever is atatched to what ever that is coming out of the hole on the side bar.

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  26. Oohyeah KL

    Oohyeah KL Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the clock position of the clamp, I too believe that it was NOT intentionally at 7, but rather, was meant to have been at 6, like the rest of the Vader sabers.

    It doesn't really make sense for it to be at 7.
    (Luke's movie graflex was at 10 only cos that's the maximum it could turn upwards, so there's a reason for that.)

    But I'm still placing mine at 7 though, just so it looks like the movie version and the pics.
     
  27. SithKnightM

    SithKnightM New Member

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    Since the clamp was loosened, how can we be sure that the verticle positioning of the clamp was also changed from it's original position...?
    Are there any clear shots of the saber from the movie?

    Regards.
     
  28. lonepigeon

    lonepigeon Sr Member

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    I just rescanned Chronicles again. Looking really close at the lever it does seem like the nail theory is correct.

    Another thing on clamp position. I get the top of the clamp 3/4" below the nameplate rivet hole (going from center of hole).

    I was just rechecking the grips and some of them are really off. Spacing between them varies quite a bit which is how I was getting conflicting grip positions. Odd numbered positioning seems to be the average spacing.

    Anyone else having D-ring problems?
    I thought would go in easy and I could at least put that on quick, but the hole's too small.
    I'll definitely be trimming a bit out of the center of the ring since the MPP section is so wide (a regular ring has to be stretched out too much and gets distorted- Heiland went in easier). So are people redrilling/expanding the D-ring hole or do your D-rings fit? What's the best way to expand the hole with the least amount of risk to the finish?

    I'm using a standard 1" d-ring.
     
  29. Shadowknight

    Shadowknight Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    I had to trim my D-ring. I wasted the hell out of one D-ring bending it. It would go back to it's original shape. I think that the hole was drilled to just fit it perfectly leaving not much room for play. So it gets stuck. [​IMG] Glad I had an extra.

    Now to get the * thing to stay in one place. [​IMG]

    The screw theory sound good and the pictures seem to back it up.

    I also believe that the clamp was meant to be at 6. Maybe when they were putting that nail in they slid it to seven by accident. Perhaps the clamp itself is glued on to prevent any other unexpected breaks. Perhaps it dried to fast to slide it back to six or nobody noticed until it was too late.

    Anyway, just my $0.02
     
  30. IRONMAN

    IRONMAN Well-Known Member

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    Anyone else having a problem with the Blast-Tech calc bubbles being too wide for the MPP clamp??? The bus connector fits perfect...
     
  31. Oohyeah KL

    Oohyeah KL Well-Known Member

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    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>lonepigeon wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>I just rescanned Chronicles again. Looking really close at the lever it does seem like the nail theory is correct.</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

    YES!! THANK YOU!! THANK YOU!! [​IMG]

    Gav, where are you? Would be great to get your 'seal of approval' too (and anyone else's, for that matter)! [​IMG]

    Chris, re the D-ring, mine fit perfectly. Well, one end was a bit crooked at the tip, so after I pulled the D-ring wider apart with my 2 index fingers, I stuck in that end first. Then I just squeezed the thing back together again, with the other tip entering the other hole in doing so.

    Scraped off a bit of the shroud surface near the hole, so be careful, guys! [​IMG]

    As for the bubbles - haven't tried the Blastech bubbles, but Gav's bubbles were perfect!! (not to mention awesome looking - clear bubbles, and 6 perfect bubbles instead of a 7-bubble cut-down to 6 version). Those who haven't got one but have an MPP, I'd strongly advise you to get yourself one of Gav's bubbles!
     
  32. Shadowknight

    Shadowknight Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    John's bubbles are two wide. I just tried Gav's and they fit perfect. Thanks Gav. [​IMG]
     
  33. gavidoc

    gavidoc Well-Known Member

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    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Quote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Gav, where are you? Would be great to get your 'seal of approval' </TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

    I'm here. [​IMG] THat is an intersting theory you have there KL. They did have to have used something on the other side of hte lever though to make sure the clamp didn't come off. It could have been anything and don't know about you guys, but a nail is a major bitch to bend and form. Especially around a clamp as flimsy as the MPP clamp, but possible.

    Paul N, I don't htink they used hotglue. Stuff peels off if you look at it wrong. Possibly used epoxy. It'd make the most sense if they definately used a nail.

    We are definately close if not right on to figuring out how it was done. Kudos to you KL.

    Shadowknight, your welcome. [​IMG]
     
  34. Oohyeah KL

    Oohyeah KL Well-Known Member

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    Ah! There's the man himself! THAAAAAANK YOU GAV!!! [​IMG]

    I would have thought the other side of the clamp would have been held together simply by the pressure of the nail head (ie, the flat 'disc'), so I wouldn't have thought anything more was necessary.

    As for bending, I would have thought they just took a hammer and hammered the * down. At least that was I was thinking of doing if I ever do this one day... [​IMG]
     
  35. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    Hi Gav' glad you comented. If it is a nail it's a preaty thin one, that hole on the clamp is preaty small and the part of the nail coming out of it is smaller still. If they clamped the clamp together and then bent the nail using the side bar as the bending point I would think it would be enough to hold it faily well. I still think KL is right and it's a nail but we have to keep an open mind (but I do think we "Nailed" it [​IMG] )

    Oh, I was jsut pulling the hot glue thing out of my *, basically they used a thinck gloppy glue (atleast on the Vader RoTJ saber). Your probably right though that it was epoxy.

    Man this thread is going so well! I really can't wait to do a thread about the ESB version (my "white whale").

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  36. SinkTube Jedi

    SinkTube Jedi Well-Known Member

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    A nail is a good theory, but what is holding it in there?

    Does anyone have the pic were it shows the lever broke and screwed on?

    Maybe there were a few made and this is one of them?? For ANH.
     
  37. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    There was only one hero prop for ANH. The nail goes through the clmap and is bent over, the lever is then glued on to the end of the nail. The disk is the head of the nail.

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  38. SinkTube Jedi

    SinkTube Jedi Well-Known Member

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    AM I loosing my mind??? [​IMG]
     
  39. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    Oh. I lost mine a loooooooooooooooong time ago and you know what? I don't miss it none. Hee hee [​IMG]

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  40. lonepigeon

    lonepigeon Sr Member

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    Could be a rivet or some other post shaped metal piece too, instead of a nail. They would bend easier- maybe an aluminum post. Nail sounds good though, fast and dirty the way these props were built.
     
  41. Oohyeah KL

    Oohyeah KL Well-Known Member

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    Paul, an ESB thread?
    haha, that'd be fun, esp. since I remember debating some points with you on ASAP before! [​IMG]
    (and if memory serves me correctly, I think we didn't entirely agree on everything! [​IMG])
     
  42. paul n

    paul n Well-Known Member

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    KL: Be wary of what you wish for, you just might get it [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I've been researching (and obsesing over) the Vader ESB saber since before well before episode 1 came out (I got to talk to Chris about it at The 1st Star Wars Celebration). That saber is what got me into this hobby in the first place. So be warned!

    ~Paul [​IMG]
     
  43. Oohyeah KL

    Oohyeah KL Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Looks like lonepigeon beat you to it, and looks like we now also have the ESB nailed!! (or wired, more like... [​IMG])
     
  44. jediscout

    jediscout Sr Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    If the orginal prop rooms were anything like ours, there are always small pieces of sheared off metal, rod scraps etc.

    The nail's a good theory--maybe even correct. Could also have been any small piece of conveniently shaped soft metal just lying around.

    I'd guess they'd have epoxied the hell out of it to get the nail/clamp/lever to stay together.

    Anyone here ever epoxied your fingers together? Or had to try and remove a prop piece that's been mis-glued? The stuff's strong...
     
  45. VaderForce

    VaderForce New Member

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    These threads are great source of infomation on all aspects of the ANH DV saber.[​IMG]


    I think it's time to do some changes. [​IMG]
     
  46. Treadwell

    Treadwell Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Regarding the clamp's 7:00 position:

    ...7:00 as viewed from the BOTTOM? That would have the clamp angled toward Vader's back as he wore it, and would seem more foreshortened in the Chronicles pics.

    Doncha mean 7:00 as viewed from the top, looking down the emitter opening?
     
  47. VaderForce

    VaderForce New Member

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    </SPAN><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Treadwell wrote:<HR></TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS=$row_color>Regarding the clamp's 7:00 position:

    ...7:00 as viewed from the BOTTOM? That would have the clamp angled toward Vader's back as he wore it, and would seem more foreshortened in the Chronicles pics.

    Doncha mean 7:00 as viewed from the top, looking down the emitter opening?</TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE><SPAN CLASS=$row_color>

    As I see in ANH when Vader first enters the Tantitive IV,you see the nail head side of the saber as it hangs of his belt. Because of the placement of the saber on the belt if it was on the "7 o'clock position looking down the emitter end" it would show the bubbles more prominently.As it is hard to see the bubbles when he's walking towards you on the screen.It would be 5 o'clock looking down the emitter end or 7 o' clock looking from the grip end. [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  48. VaderArmor

    VaderArmor Member

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    took nearly 10 years for this thread to make it to the end....now its back to the front for another 10 year journey.:lol

    by the way, where are this pics in this thread?
     

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