Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker (Pre-release)

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Joek3rr

Sr Member
I just hope whatever they have for Palps' return it is acceptable and not over the top stupid. Yes, I know that's a tall order. If he returns in ANY human form then so should Luke. (Which I actually DON'T want by the way.) I mean if Palps can return after getting tossed down a shaft AND the Death Star exploding, then Luke should be able to return after his demise of thinking too hard...........
Luke didn't die of thinking to hard lol
 

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Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Which raises my other issue. What is any of this ADDING to the story? If anything it seems to me that it is actually DETRACTING from it. Plus if the whole point is the futility of it all, as Ron pointed out, then what a pessimistic approach to what was supposed to be a wholly uplifting feel good space adventure!

Which is why I am so against bringing Maul back or Mace Windu. Death has to have consequence and meaning in a story and if you constantly bring characters back from the dead (in corporeal form at least) it undermines the purpose of their death which is meant to give weight and depth to the story. It undercuts the dramatic tension if done arbitrarily often rendering their initial demise meaningless because they can just respawn like in a video game.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Yeah I've heard that one too. :confused:

Personally I think it's a mistake bringing him back at all unless it were a flashback or hologram. Snoke or Kylo should have been the main baddie in this new trilogy. But it is what it is. I'm just surprised that even PT fans aren't a bit peeved at his return because it was Anakin sacrificing his life to kill the Emperor which brought him back to the light. Now Anakin has to kill him again???? I mean this could just be a rumor too, but doesn't that seem unnecessary? Like what is that really adding to the story that wasn't there from the beginning?



What you just described is why I LOVE Return of the Jedi, especially the climax of the film. Yes I agree with you on the motivation for Vader's redemption, but the Emperor is the catalyst for all of those things happening so if he didn't throw him down that pit Luke would have died and Vader would still be Palpatine's puppet. Having the Emperor return negates all of that because now it has to be done all over again only now Anakin and Luke are BOTH dead. If Palpatine can survive that, then what is going to kill him once and for all and why wasn't Vader's sacrifice enough to stop him the first time around? You see what I mean about this undercutting the entire dramatic triumph of that movie?

Ultimately this may all be a rumor, though I think the point stands if it does turn out to be true and it blows my mind that people wouldn't be pissed about it.
Yes this is true. Him dying is not as important as how he died. He was the mechanism if you will by which Anakin and Luke complete their character arcs. So then in that sense why bring him back? Will he provide the same service to our new characters? Because if he doesn't then his return is nothing more than fan service and lazy rehashing.

But even if he does provide that means for character development of the protagonist/antagonist, I have to agree with Psab keel that it undermines the achievements of Luke and Vader beyond their own personal developments. It took great sacrifice and courage to destroy the emperor only to now see him so easily resurface (assuming that's what happens of course). When something so difficult to achieve is so easily undone, it trivializes the struggle it took to accomplish that achievement. Unless your point IS to show the futility of that struggle, I don't think that's good storytelling.
Palpatine is THE Phantom Menace. He was there at the start of the Skywalker saga, it's only right that he be at the end. It will make this 3rd trilogy so disjointed from the other two if he isn't in there in some form. Plus it makes him into a devil figure. An evil force that's ever present. Always looking for his next prey.
 

frogfreak

Well-Known Member
Palpatine is THE Phantom Menace. He was there at the start of the Skywalker saga, it's only right that he be at the end. It will make this 3rd trilogy so disjointed from the other two if he isn't in there in some form. Plus it makes him into a devil figure. An evil force that's ever present. Always looking for his next prey.
I completely agree with everything you just said!
 

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Ron

Well-Known Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Palpatine is THE Phantom Menace. He was there at the start of the Skywalker saga, it's only right that he be at the end. It will make this 3rd trilogy so disjointed from the other two if he isn't in there in some form. Plus it makes him into a devil figure. An evil force that's ever present. Always looking for his next prey.
I can actually see that if I regarded the ST as the end of the Skywalker saga but for myself & many others and most importantly for George Lucas himself, it ended with Return of the Jedi. I know George had ideas of where to take the story after that but as it stands structurally and thematically, I'd say it ended there.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
I can actually see that if I regarded the ST as the end of the Skywalker saga but for myself & many others and most importantly for George Lucas himself, it ended with Return of the Jedi. I know George had ideas of where to take the story after that but as it stands structurally and thematically, I'd say it ended there.
In classic George fashion, he changed his mind. I mean that's why he sold the company and put Kathy in charge. It was all for making more films. George and Kathy hired Michael Arndt to write episode 7 before he even sold Lucasfilm.


Read Lawrence's answer to the 6 question.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
He wasn't in A New Hope and only had a cameo in Empire. He didn't even show up in person until Jedi. He wasn't in The Force Awakens, or even The Last Turd Fly. Do those films feel disjointed without him? Not at all! The whole PT was about his rise to power and ROTJ saw his demise. That seems pretty clear cut to me. If he was the central character of the nine film saga then sure I could see that being a more valid argument. I think the only reason he returned is because Snoke was disposed of and because JJ likely wants to redeem Ben Solo, so with no big bad to kill off, how do you wrap the story up? You bring back an old one! An oldie but a goodie, or baddie in this case. This way it will feel tied to the other movies in some roundabout fashion! Even though in reality it undoes the power of what had come before by trying to retread the same conflict that had been resolved before.

I thought this whole new conflict was supposed to be about defeating the First Order? Now it's about the Empire again? What?

Why are Rey and company once again fighting off someone who had long been dead? Is it because it actually means something? Or is it merely ego in thinking that they can top Return of the Jedi?

This MAY have spoilers so be warned:

 
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Joek3rr

Sr Member
He wasn't in A New Hope and only had a cameo in Empire. He didn't even show up in person until Jedi. He wasn't in The Force Awakens, or even The Last Turd Fly. Do those films feel disjointed without him? Not at all! The whole PT was about his rise to power and ROTJ saw his demise. That seems pretty clear cut to me. If he was the central character of the nine film saga then sure I could see that being a more valid argument. I think the only reason he returned is because Snoke was disposed of and because JJ likely wants to redeem Ben Solo, so with no big bad to kill off, how do you wrap the story up? You bring back an old one! An oldie but a goodie, or baddie in this case. This way it will feel tied to the other movies in some roundabout fashion! Even though in reality it undoes the power of what had come before by trying to retread the same conflict that had been resolved before.

I thought this whole new conflict was supposed to be about defeating the First Order? Now it's about the Empire again? What?
Well generally you don't see the puppeteer. And Palpatine is a master at puppeteering.

Yes the conflict with against the First Order. Why would you think the Empire is back? And besides does it matter? Separatists or Confederacy of Independent Systems, The Old Republic, Galactic Empire. All just names, and all under the control of Palpatine.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
How will he be able to be stopped for good then?

He survived being thrown down a miles long pit and then also somehow survived being blown up with the Death Star.

How do you kill someone who can survive that?

Apparently the Chosen One couldn't do it. Neither could Luke.
 

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Ron

Well-Known Member
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In classic George fashion, he changed his mind. I mean that's why he sold the company and put Kathy in charge. It was all for making more films. George and Kathy hired Michael Arndt to write episode 7 before he even sold Lucasfilm.


Read Lawrence's answer to the 6 question.
Forgive me, I couldn't figure out which quote you were citing :confused:
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
Forgive me, I couldn't figure out which quote you were citing :confused:
StarWars.com: As someone who’s obviously played such a part of writing the character over the years, had you — just in your head — kicked around ideas about what his origin might have been?

Lawrence Kasdan:
No. Never. What happened is, in November 2012, I was in Colorado and Kathy [Kennedy] called me. She said “Look, we’re going to do some new Star Wars movies, and would you come up and talk to me and George about it?” I said, “I don’t know. I feel like I’ve done my Star Wars movies.” I had done two by then. She said, “Just come up. We’d really appreciate it and let’s have a talk.” I said, “All right.” You know, George had been enormously important to my career, and he knew from the get-go that I wanted to be a director. When I was going to try to get Body Heat made, Alan Ladd Jr. at Fox said, “You gotta get a sponsor,” and he had sponsored the writing of the script. But he said, “If you’re going to direct it, you need a godfather of some kind.” I went to George who I had just worked with on Raiders [of the Lost Ark] and Empire [Strikes Back], and George said, “I’ll executive produce the movie, uncredited.” So that was in 1980. Now in 2012, he’s saying, “Will you come up and have a meeting.” With Kathy, who I had been friends with for 40 years, and so I went up and we talked and it was great to be back at the ranch. They said, “We want to do” — there’s no Disney in this conversation yet — and they said, “We want to revive the franchise and we’ve got some ideas.” And they had a bunch of ideas that George had written out very briefly. I said “Well, I don’t think so,” and they said Michael Arndt has been hired to write the next Star Wars. I said, “Well, that sounds great. He’s really talented.” And then they said, “You know, one of the ideas would be to do just a movie about Han,” and I suddenly perked up, because that was the only thing that interested me.
 

Ron

Well-Known Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
George may not always be on his game as a filmmaker but he's one hell of businessman and I mean that as a huge compliment. I would guess and can only guess that George realized he did all he could with Star Wars and there wasn't any substantial story left to tell so he cashed out. Only thing left to do was get the old cast back plus Kasdan to sweeten the deal for Disney.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
What I would like to know is what is any of this adding to the story that we don't already know, or is it just telling us the same things over and over again because it's familiar and makes money?
 

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Joek3rr

Sr Member
How will he be able to be stopped for good then?

He survived being thrown down a miles long pit and then also somehow survived being blown up with the Death Star.

How do you kill someone who can survive that?

Apparently the Chosen One couldn't do it. Neither could Luke.
In which he suspiciously "blew up" rather quickly. EC Henry did an interesting video about how far the Emperor fell. Really interesting. (Also interesting that the blue energy seen rushing up the shaft, is awfully similar to how Sith alchemy is depicted)

Now obviously how he's going to be defeated depends on how he's back. My money is on the idea that he's haunting the DS2 ruins. In wich case they have to somehow either force his spirit into joining with the Force. Or having him possess someone, kill them, then prevent his spirit from transferring. We have some pretty powerful Jedi that are currently Force ghost and could help out.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
But what is any of that adding to the story if they are still fighting the same character for the last 8 films and he'd been "defeated" before?

He'll just come back for Episodes 10, 11, 12

It will never end.

Even bigger still, are we THAT greedy as a fanbase that we are willing to accept them doing dumb things with the characters just to see more of them on film? I mean it has to end at some point right?

Sure they say this is the end of the Skywalker Saga. But is it really? I mean George swore Return of the Jedi was the end of the saga in 1983. Then when 2005 rolled around he said now that the prequels were over that it completed his "original vision" for the Skywalker Saga in the rise and fall and eventual redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

Now we have a whole new trilogy ending in 2019 only to find out that Palpatine is STILL alive after being "dead" for 30 plus years in the story timeline. Whether as a physical embodiment or as a ghost he's still in the picture.

I'm still of the mindset that you CAN have too much of a good thing.

I wouldn't be shocked if somewhere along the line, perhaps a decade from now they decide to reboot it yet again and have 10, 11, and 12. Perhaps old frog face will rear his head yet again.....
 
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Joek3rr

Sr Member
George may not always be on his game as a filmmaker but he's one hell of businessman and I mean that as a huge compliment. I would guess and can only guess that George realized he did all he could with Star Wars and there wasn't any substantial story left to tell so he cashed out. Only thing left to do was get the old cast back plus Kasdan to sweeten the deal for Disney.
What I think is really interesting. Is that George has had the idea of the saga continuing without him since 1982. JW Rinzler says in his article-
But two years later while filming Jedi, for many reasons, Lucas was burning out, tired of the whole enterprise: “I’m only doing this because I started it and now I have to finish it,” he adds. “The next trilogy will be all someone else’s vision.”

But by the mid 90s, if I recall, George seems to have gotten some of his energy and enthusiasm back as he says he's going to write episode 1-3, direct episode 1, and that he's thinking about only getting directors for 2-3.
 

Joek3rr

Sr Member
But what is any of that adding to the story if they are still fighting the same character for the last 8 films and he'd been "defeated" before?

He'll just come back for Episodes 10, 11, 12

It will never end.

Even bigger still, are we THAT greedy as a fanbase that we are willing to accept them doing dumb things with the characters just to see more of them on film? I mean it has to end at some point right?

Sure they say this is the end of the Skywalker Saga. But is it really? I mean George swore Return of the Jedi was the end of the saga in 1983. Then when 2005 rolled around he said now that the prequels were over that it completed his "original vision" for the Skywalker Saga in the rise and fall and eventual redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

Now we have a whole new trilogy ending in 2019 only to find out that Palpatine is STILL alive after being "dead" for 30 plus years in the story timeline. Whether as a physical embodiment or as a ghost he's still in the picture.

I'm still of the mindset that you CAN have too much of a good thing.

I would be shocked if somewhere along the line, perhaps a decade from now they decide to reboot it yet again and have 10, 11, and 12. Perhaps old frog face will rear his head yet again.....
Think of it as a kind of Suron thing.
In ROTJ Palpatine's physical form was defeated. And now (if my theory is correct) Palpatine's spirit form will be defeated. After that there's nothing left.

When ROTJ was released, it was reported by some news coverage as being the 3rd film out of 9.

You saw Retroblasting's video. Palpatine making a return was something that has been kicking around for a long while. Of course that version of ROTJ didn't make it to the silver screen. But then after ROTJ Palpatine came back in The Dark Empire comic. An idea that supposedly either originated from George, or was approved by George. Though he changed his mind later.
 

Psab keel

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Whether the idea originated with George or not, it's still overkill to me and ultimately meaningless to my point.

Plus if Palpatine wasn't involved with TFA or TLJ it feels out of place to bring him back in the last film. If the new films are going to center on new villains and new heroes, let them be the focus rather than constantly relying on the past to solve problems in your new story. It shows a lack of confidence in the new characters.


No matter what the original intention or "plan" was for the story that is irrelevant because these things change constantly. I fail to see how that matters when you yourself said George was always changing his mind.

I think Palpatine's return is twofold. One it shows a lack of confidence in having Snoke being the main villain for this new trilogy, and also solves the necessity of filling the void of Snoke's death in ep 8 by giving our characters someone to fight.

You can reference early script drafts, treatments, interviews with the creators, and concept art til you're blue in the face but it still doesn't address the point I'm making.

Having Palpatine return undermines the triumph of the previous films and robs them of any dramatic weight because it was all in vain if the characters have to defeat the same evil 30 plus years later. All it does is stall the inevitable lackluster showdown.

I don't care how elaborate they make this new plot, it's just a bad idea. If anything it comes across as trying to justify poor creative choices by using old characters to carry the weight of the story rather than build upon your new characters because the new ones and likewise the new story, are hollow.

Bringing the Emperor back now reminds me of this: Stay DOWN!!! :lol:

 
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