Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

[Joek3rr]

I'd say that's fair if you ignore the fact that the trilogy wasn't written by a single writer. It's glaringly obvious that it wasn't planned at all, which resulted in the clusterf*** that was ROS. TLJ undid too much of TFA for ROS to have a chance of being good; rather than being new and interesting, it reminded me of two kids playing with action figures in the sandbox.

"No, wait, it actually happens this way!"
"No, that's dumb, this is the way it should go!"
"Well, you're dumb!"
"Am not!"

This scene in particular is one of the worst in the film and shows that Johnson plain didn't understand the character. I have a hard time reconciling this Luke with the Luke of the OT, and I think that's a pretty common opinion. Would Luke have had some PTSD from surviving the worst galactic war in recent memory? Of course. Would the guy who redeemed Space Hitler have decided to kill a child? Probably not, IMO.

Some fact checking.

First, Luke tried to kill his father before throwing away his lightsaber.

Second, Ben is in his mid 20s. Not a child.

Third. Luke in TLJ isn't Rian's doing. It's George's. He wanted Luke to be struggling with the dark side. In George's version something happens between Luke and his nephew. With the result being Luke's nephew being physically injured, and Luke going into self imposed exile.


Okay with that out of the way. Here's how I read that scene. Luke like his father is governed by his emotions. Chiefly, the fear of loss. Luke above all else fears to loose those he loves. So when Luke looks into his nephew's mind he's shown his greatest fear. The destruction of everything and everyone he loves. Fear takes Luke. That fear becomes anger. Which becomes hate. And Luke reaches for his lightsaber. Intent on ending it all before it can happen. Taking the quick and easy path. But then looks down. He can't kill his sister's son! But it's too late. Recall master Yoda's words to Anakin. "Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side."

 

[CT1138]

To add to the above, there's clearly multiple parallels of masters failing their padawans that occur throughout the three trilogies. This scene is just this trilogy's "I have failed you, Anakin, I have failed you."

The three flashbacks have multiple layers going on. There's parallels and points of view happening here. Just the way the three ways the story of Ben's fall is told shows this. In Luke's version, he completely omits that he had his lightsaber out, and Ben was the aggressor. In Ben's version, Luke's hair is disheveled, and there's a mad look in his eye. Luke is the aggressor. In the third version, we see the context. We see that Luke had a brief flash of fear, and that Ben completely misread the situation. Ben's heart wasn't wasn't turned. Luke's actions, and his emotions, as Obi-Wan puts it, do him credit, but could be made to serve the Emperor. And that's what's happening here. It's a visual example of the famous Robert Evans quote, "There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth."

 

[Paul Andrew]

I'd say that's fair if you ignore the fact that the trilogy wasn't written by a single writer. It's glaringly obvious that it wasn't planned at all, which resulted in the clusterf*** that was ROS. TLJ undid too much of TFA for ROS to have a chance of being good; rather than being new and interesting, it reminded me of two kids playing with action figures in the sandbox.

"No, wait, it actually happens this way!"
"No, that's dumb, this is the way it should go!"
"Well, you're dumb!"
"Am not!"

This scene in particular is one of the worst in the film and shows that Johnson plain didn't understand the character. I have a hard time reconciling this Luke with the Luke of the OT, and I think that's a pretty common opinion. Would Luke have had some PTSD from surviving the worst galactic war in recent memory? Of course. Would the guy who redeemed Space Hitler have decided to kill a child? Probably not, IMO.

Every writer can only build and riff off of what came before. Even a shred of tying things together while going after their own specific visions is to be lauded rather than derided as far as I'm concerned.

 

[The Brahma Bull]

I can't even watch the movie. Maximum of 15 minutes in and I have to quit. Re-Run of the ST is impossible for me. This is simply one of the worst movies ever made.

 

[CT1138]

Here we go...

 

[Halliwax]

Here we go...

Lol

 

[RedheadKevin]

To add to the above, there's clearly multiple parallels of masters failing their padawans that occur throughout the three trilogies. This scene is just this trilogy's "I have failed you, Anakin, I have failed you."

There's another prophetic line that people tend to forget when talking about the ST, from Yoda in ESB: "If you leave now, help them you could, but it would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."
Luke leaving his training on Dagobah early didn't do a thing to help Leia and Han on Cloud City. Han still got tortured and frozen, and Leia had to GO BACK to rescue Luke. You could argue that his presence helped distract the Imperials so Lando could make his move. But honestly, that's about it. He was not emotionally ready to learn the truth about Vader or Leia, and he didn't have the training to handle it all. Eventually he did better, and ended up defeating Vader (who pretty much threw the fight on DS2), and then Vader destroyed the Emperor. So Luke helped them that way.
But then the Sequels happened. Luke's failure from inexperience as a Jedi Master led directly to Kylo Ren, the destruction of the New Republic and billions of lives, Han's death, Leia getting blown into space and later her death. An experienced Jedi Master could probably have prevented Palpatine's return by making sure he was dead on the Death Star.
So by leaving Dagobah, Luke maybe could have helped at Bespin, (although he DIDN'T), but he destroyed Han and Leia's lives, not to mention the whole of the New Republic.

 

[Dontdissthefett]

A good writer would have prevented Palpatine’s return too

 

[Joek3rr]

There's another prophetic line that people tend to forget when talking about the ST, from Yoda in ESB: "If you leave now, help them you could, but it would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."
Luke leaving his training on Dagobah early didn't do a thing to help Leia and Han on Cloud City. Han still got tortured and frozen, and Leia had to GO BACK to rescue Luke. You could argue that his presence helped distract the Imperials so Lando could make his move. But honestly, that's about it. He was not emotionally ready to learn the truth about Vader or Leia, and he didn't have the training to handle it all. Eventually he did better, and ended up defeating Vader (who pretty much threw the fight on DS2), and then Vader destroyed the Emperor. So Luke helped them that way.
But then the Sequels happened. Luke's failure from inexperience as a Jedi Master led directly to Kylo Ren, the destruction of the New Republic and billions of lives, Han's death, Leia getting blown into space and later her death. An experienced Jedi Master could probably have prevented Palpatine's return by making sure he was dead on the Death Star.
So by leaving Dagobah, Luke maybe could have helped at Bespin, (although he DIDN'T), but he destroyed Han and Leia's lives, not to mention the whole of the New Republic.

JJ has spoken many times about the new characters inheriting the past. Both the good and the bad. And having to pay for the sins of the father kinda thing.

I like the notion that Luke didn't escape going against his teachers wishes. Yoda warned him the dark side was quick and easy. And that once you start that dark path it will forever dominate his destiny. Luke is reaping what he sowed. The brash actions of a young man, have lasting impacts. A real teaching point in there.

 

[The Brahma Bull]

JJ has spoken many times about the new characters inheriting the past. Both the good and the bad. And having to pay for the sins of the father kinda thing.

I like the notion that Luke didn't escape going against his teachers wishes. Yoda warned him the dark side was quick and easy. And that once you start that dark path it will forever dominate his destiny. Luke is reaping what he sowed. The brash actions of a young man, have lasting impacts. A real teaching point in there.

This contradicts the OT. In his final fight with his father he wins the battle over the dark side. One of the most powerful scenes in all of SW.

 

[Joek3rr]

This contradicts the OT. In his final fight with his father he wins the battle over the dark side. One of the most powerful scenes in all of SW.

He wins that one battle. But if only the dark side was a one and done thing. But it isn't. It's daily struggle, that will last until a person is dead.

Dave Filoni recently made some comments on this topic. "And the only other Jedi lesson I can teach you today, Padawan, is that you don’t conquer the dark side and then that’s it. You don’t just overcome it. You are tested and tested and tested. There is always another test. These are the trials. And I think people trivialize it into thinking, ‘Well, I defeated the dark side.’ Yes, you did on Monday, but now there’s more. Because your hubris can get a hold of you. Because remember Yoda says in the prequels that even the older Jedi have become arrogant."

Because let's be blunt about this. The dark side is sin. And a person will never ever win the battle over sin.

 

[Spyhunter2k]

Oh Lord. Please kill this thread with fire. Whoever brought this back should be made to endure the stench of a thousand piles of steaming bantha poodoo.

Can we just agree to rename this movie and thread "The Least Jedi," and lock it down, mumble depressingly to ourselves one last time at the lost opportunities and character assassination that masqueraded as avant garde expectation subversion and just let...it...die.

 

[Laspector]

Yeah, this stuff has gotten 292 pages old....Somebody hates it and explains why they are right, then somebody likes it and explains why they are right, and around and around we go, again and again and again and again. It's as bad as going to some other forum and arguing politics........pointless.

 

[Halliwax]

Amazed it was never locked

 

[Bigdaddy]

The dark side isn't sin, it's just a fictional plot device from a 40 year old set of films. "Darkside" is as fictional as "Sin".
Let's be blunt, people ought to keep their religious perspectives out of film discussions on the RPF.

 

[cboath]

He wins that one battle. But if only the dark side was a one and done thing. But it isn't. It's daily struggle, that will last until a person is dead.

Dave Filoni recently made some comments on this topic. "And the only other Jedi lesson I can teach you today, Padawan, is that you don’t conquer the dark side and then that’s it. You don’t just overcome it. You are tested and tested and tested. There is always another test. These are the trials. And I think people trivialize it into thinking, ‘Well, I defeated the dark side.’ Yes, you did on Monday, but now there’s more. Because your hubris can get a hold of you. Because remember Yoda says in the prequels that even the older Jedi have become arrogant."

Because let's be blunt about this. The dark side is sin. And a person will never ever win the battle over sin.

I'll just say this, IF (huge if) you want to believe that, then the fail is that said fall is never shown. It's just a fait accompli. Luke is the hero of hero's and the second the next part starts, he's 'fallen' in that respect. Sorry, but no. The flashbacks don't even fully explain it - and i'm not talking just in a believable way either. The level of @%^) that has to gone to get to that level is HUGE and we see absolutely none of it and get nothing more than a couple words of explanation. There's simply that no way Luke at the end of ROTJ goes off the deep end off a vision. He knew damn well visions are possibilities. To do what they jumped to requires a whole lot of exposition to make it believable. And again, not that hard to take him to an uninhabited planet and leave him there or something to that effect.

There is nothing about him failing as a master other than in his own head. People feel responsible and take blame for plenty of stuff they aren't actually responsible for. With what's portrayed in the prequels, yoda and others should have known damned well anakin was breaking loads of rules and being way too close to the edge. I'd call them extremely experienced masters and they missed it. I don't blame them for missing it, @$%& happens, you know? The best master ever can't save a bad apple if the bad apple doesn't want to change. That's a large part, i think, of why the PT had the jedi taking kids as near infants so they could control their thought processes from the beginning. Not so much in a bad(evil) way, but it still, it helps if everyone is taught to think the same way. Just toss in Yoda also failed big time with Dooku and all the other masters who've lost students or had them leave the order. Though leaving the order doesn't mean you go bad (Asohka).

I'd wager in GL's version, luke maybe have struggled, but wouldn't have gone from hero to total failure as he did with TLJ. While I think that decision is completely asinine, it can be done successfully, but it has to be done right. The ST did not come close to doing it right to make it believable or acceptable. If they didn't think doing that would create a bunch of blowback, they're deluding themselves.

 

[Joek3rr]

I'll just say this, IF (huge if) you want to believe that, then the fail is that said fall is never shown. It's just a fait accompli. Luke is the hero of hero's and the second the next part starts, he's 'fallen' in that respect. Sorry, but no. The flashbacks don't even fully explain it - and i'm not talking just in a believable way either. The level of @%^) that has to gone to get to that level is HUGE and we see absolutely none of it and get nothing more than a couple words of explanation. There's simply that no way Luke at the end of ROTJ goes off the deep end off a vision. He knew damn well visions are possibilities. To do what they jumped to requires a whole lot of exposition to make it believable. And again, not that hard to take him to an uninhabited planet and leave him there or something to that effect.

There is nothing about him failing as a master other than in his own head. People feel responsible and take blame for plenty of stuff they aren't actually responsible for. With what's portrayed in the prequels, yoda and others should have known damned well anakin was breaking loads of rules and being way too close to the edge. I'd call them extremely experienced masters and they missed it. I don't blame them for missing it, @$%& happens, you know? The best master ever can't save a bad apple if the bad apple doesn't want to change. That's a large part, i think, of why the PT had the jedi taking kids as near infants so they could control their thought processes from the beginning. Not so much in a bad(evil) way, but it still, it helps if everyone is taught to think the same way. Just toss in Yoda also failed big time with Dooku and all the other masters who've lost students or had them leave the order. Though leaving the order doesn't mean you go bad (Asohka).

I'd wager in GL's version, luke maybe have struggled, but wouldn't have gone from hero to total failure as he did with TLJ. While I think that decision is completely asinine, it can be done successfully, but it has to be done right. The ST did not come close to doing it right to make it believable or acceptable. If they didn't think doing that would create a bunch of blowback, they're deluding themselves.

How does Luke know that seeing the future in the Force is a possibility? How? Yoda tells him, that the future isn't certain. But that was in response to friends dying. In Luke's experience, the one vision he had, came true. He saw his friends suffering and in pain. When he arrived at Cloud City, that's exactly what he finds has happened.

You say that Luke wouldn't go off the deep end (which he didn't anyways) on just a vision. But Luke has flown into a murderous rage on less. His father fell to the dark side and murdered children! All on a vision.

You have to remember what Luke fear the most is to loose those he loves. And when Luke goes in there, and looks into Ben's mind. He shown his greatest fear. The death and destruction of everything he loves. And that fear takes him. That's all it takes. "Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side."

 

[Joek3rr]

I'll just say this, IF (huge if) you want to believe that, then the fail is that said fall is never shown. It's just a fait accompli. Luke is the hero of hero's and the second the next part starts, he's 'fallen' in that respect. Sorry, but no. The flashbacks don't even fully explain it - and i'm not talking just in a believable way either. The level of @%^) that has to gone to get to that level is HUGE and we see absolutely none of it and get nothing more than a couple words of explanation. There's simply that no way Luke at the end of ROTJ goes off the deep end off a vision. He knew damn well visions are possibilities. To do what they jumped to requires a whole lot of exposition to make it believable. And again, not that hard to take him to an uninhabited planet and leave him there or something to that effect.

There is nothing about him failing as a master other than in his own head. People feel responsible and take blame for plenty of stuff they aren't actually responsible for. With what's portrayed in the prequels, yoda and others should have known damned well anakin was breaking loads of rules and being way too close to the edge. I'd call them extremely experienced masters and they missed it. I don't blame them for missing it, @$%& happens, you know? The best master ever can't save a bad apple if the bad apple doesn't want to change. That's a large part, i think, of why the PT had the jedi taking kids as near infants so they could control their thought processes from the beginning. Not so much in a bad(evil) way, but it still, it helps if everyone is taught to think the same way. Just toss in Yoda also failed big time with Dooku and all the other masters who've lost students or had them leave the order. Though leaving the order doesn't mean you go bad (Asohka).

I'd wager in GL's version, luke maybe have struggled, but wouldn't have gone from hero to total failure as he did with TLJ. While I think that decision is completely asinine, it can be done successfully, but it has to be done right. The ST did not come close to doing it right to make it believable or acceptable. If they didn't think doing that would create a bunch of blowback, they're deluding themselves.

Oh and George Lucas's Luke is struggling with the dark side has a fight with his nephew, physically injures him. Then after his Jedi temple is destroyed disappears into exile "hiding from the world in a cave."

"So, the late-2012 idea of a Luke Skywalker haunted by the betrayal of one of his students, in self-imposed exile & spiritually in “a dark place”, not only precedes Rian Johnson’s involvement in Star Wars but J.J. Abrams’, as well." - Phil Szostak

 

[Bigdaddy]

"Murderous" ..., exaggerating doesn't bolster a debated position.

 

[cboath]

Oh and George Lucas's Luke is struggling with the dark side has a fight with his nephew, physically injures him. Then after his Jedi temple is destroyed disappears into exile "hiding from the world in a cave."

"So, the late-2012 idea of a Luke Skywalker haunted by the betrayal of one of his students, in self-imposed exile & spiritually in “a dark place”, not only precedes Rian Johnson’s involvement in Star Wars but J.J. Abrams’, as well." - Phil Szostak

And it fails miserably in how they did it. It was simply just 'done' with very little believable explanation. Just because certain people can go to great lengths to extrapolation a plausible reason, doesn't mean the onscreen execution wasn't remotely enough to get the majority of people on board for it.

If you want to do something like that, you have to take care to craft it so everyone is going to believe what you've given them. There's no debating that the vast majority of people didn't buy into that. The reason why isn't really important. If you're going in that direction, it's your responsibility as director to get people to buy it regardless of pre-conceived notions or nostalgia.

As for your bit about it jiving because luke's greatest fear is losing the one's he cares about - you want us to believe Luke would remotely consider killing his then innocent nephew on a 'maybe', but once HIS actions put his nephew on the course to fullfill that vision and kill everyone and everything he cares about, he just up and says 'f it' and quits on everyone and leaves his loved ones to fend for themselves against a foe that cannot stop on their own? Simply, no. If you want to expound (as a director) and show that relationship sour and a fight take place and Luke then feels horrible for winning or how he won - that's something else. I could totally see Luke doing what he did if he thought he killed Ben. But not when he believes he sent Ben off on his path of destruction.

But enough of this. You beat this like a dead horse. I don't think i've seen you so much minutely shift your opinion on anything, ever. I can admit there are things i like about the ST. I don't have much of any real issue with TFA. i even like some of RJ's ideas in TLJ, i think he just botched the execution frequently. Maybe it does work if RJ doesn't all three and that stuff is laid out from the beginning - we'll never know. I mean, what we got in reference to Luke isn't a whole lot different than if Harrison Ford refused to come back and the opening crawl started with, "After having killed Han Solo in an argument, Luke Skywalker has vanished.". You can't jump from ROTJ to that without a big explanation. A minute or two is far from sufficient to make that act believable to the viewer.