Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

[Psab keel]

Anybody remember that old adage, "if you've got nothing nice to say, it's best to say nothing at all?"

Nobody is forcing the people who dislike this movie to respond to this thread. You're all very well free and capable of ignoring the thread and not jumping into it just for the sake of hating on the movie. Let's be honest here. We're all adults perfectly capable of making adult decisions. I necroed, yeah, but I sure as Hell didn't start this BS. We were all having a civil discussion until certain people came in here purposely starting trouble.

No one started any trouble. People were merely stating their opinions. I ask this in all sincerity, what did you honestly think was going to happen?

 

[Ron]

I'm using Anakin. Because like it or not, the Prequels are apart of that story. And the Sequels if they did their job right, are going to circle back on those themes from. The Prequels. And the Sequels did that.....

Its not a leap. To go from vision to ignited lightsaber. "Careful you must be when sensing the future, Anakin[insert Luke]. The fear of loss is a path to the dark side."
"Twisted by the dark side young Skywalker has become."

He's going to do whatever it takes to save his friends. Even if that means killing his nephew. That's another reason for his exile. He's decided to let go, of everything. He'd doing what he couldn't do in Empire.

It's clear that you don't think Luke did anything wrong by going to Cloud City. When if fact everything in that movie and following movies screams that him going was a huge failure on his part. He's giving into his fear. If wasn't a big deal. Then why the warnings from his masters?

It's also clear that you think Yoda and Obi-Wan are speaking nonsense, and not wisdom.

Also actions speak louder then words. Luke may have said he was going to "help." His friends. But he didn't. He goes there, and the only thing he does is fight Vader. Heck he even gives chase!

This stuff is painfully obvious. It really baffles me how you miss these interconnecting themes between the 3 trilogies.

No one disagrees that Luke made a mistake by going to Cloud City. That's why we're all baffled that he would make a similar mistake again.

In Empire he sees a vision and then acts on it only to learn a couple of valuable lessons:
1. Don't act on impulse.
2. Visions aren't definite predictors of the future.

What does he do in Last Jedi? He makes the same bloody mistake. He sees a vision and acts on impulse.

It's like he didn't learn anything.

 

[Cephus]

No one disagrees that Luke made a mistake by going to Cloud City. That's why we're all baffled that he would make a similar mistake again.

In Empire he sees a vision and then acts on it only to learn a couple of valuable lessons:
1. Don't act on impulse.
2. Visions aren't definite predictors of the future.

What does he do in Last Jedi? He makes the same bloody mistake. He sees a vision and acts on impulse.

It's like he didn't learn anything.

It wasn't Luke that didn't learn. It was Rian Johnson.

 

[Joek3rr]

No one disagrees that Luke made a mistake by going to Cloud City. That's why we're all baffled that he would make a similar mistake again.

In Empire he sees a vision and then acts on it only to learn a couple of valuable lessons:
1. Don't act on impulse.
2. Visions aren't definite predictors of the future.

What does he do in Last Jedi? He makes the same bloody mistake. He sees a vision and acts on impulse.

It's like he didn't learn anything.

Learning and doing are very very very different things. Why do think he's hates himself?

And actually he doesn't learn that visions aren't definite predictors of the future. It's quite the opposite

I saw... I saw a city in the
clouds.
YODA
Mmm. Friends you have there.
LUKE
They were in pain.
YODA
It is the future you see.

What Luke sees is what happens. His vision came true.

 

[Joek3rr]

It wasn't Luke that didn't learn. It was Rian Johnson.

You mean George Lucas

 

[Psab keel]

 

[Ron]

Learning and doing are very very very different things. Why do think he's hates himself?

And actually he doesn't learn that visions aren't definite predictors of the future. It's quite the opposite

I saw... I saw a city in the
clouds.
YODA
Mmm. Friends you have there.
LUKE
They were in pain.
YODA
It is the future you see.

What Luke sees is what happens. His vision came true.

About the vision, you're right. What he sees is what happens. I have to clarify that I meant that it seems visions are somewhat open to interpretation and not especially detailed. I shouldve made that clearer.

But that's the issue I have with Luke in Last Jedi. If visions are indeed prophetic and the future they predict is set in stone, then Luke had a duty to kill Ben. So his mistake was not that he contemplated killing him. His mistake was not following through with it. I don’t think that's a proper direction to take the charater or the saga.

Learning and doing are very very very different things. Why do think he's hates himself?

Right but the reason heroes are heroes and why we look to them is because they eventually do do the right thing. By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke did the right thing. By the Last Jedi, he's regressed. Why?

 

[Dontdissthefett]

At this point no one is changing anyone’s mind about this movie. There’s no reason that there needs to be this amount of argument and collateral damage over a movie. Let this thread die already.

 

[Joek3rr]

About the vision, you're right. What he sees is what happens. I have to clarify that I meant that it seems visions are somewhat open to interpretation and not especially detailed. I shouldve made that clearer.

But that's the issue I have with Luke in Last Jedi. If visions are indeed prophetic and the future they predict is set in stone, then Luke had a duty to kill Ben. So his mistake was not that he contemplated killing him. His mistake was not following through with it. I don’t think that's a proper direction to take the charater or the saga.

Right but the reason heroes are heroes and why we look to them is because they eventually do do the right thing. By the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke did the right thing. By the Last Jedi, he's regressed. Why?

That's the terrible twist of fate. Luke's actions to try and prevent the future he sees. Is the catalyst for creating that future. Much like his father's actions which lead to the death of his wife.

There's no regression. If anything there's progression. OT Luke would have killed his nephew before coming to his senses. This is a fallible human Luke. That let's fear take him, for only a few seconds. But those few seconds change the fate of the galaxy.

 

[Psab keel]

 

[CT1138]

Anybody remember the old adage "Life is a two way street"?


Right. As I said it's quite the opposite.


Two way street.


Some of us are, others get their panties in a wad over different opinions from their own. No one is telling you "likers" to stay out of the thread. Again, quite the opposite. It's not just here but all over the net, and I'm goddamn sick and tired of it.


There was no BS until you made that asinine post last night. Oh that's right, you consider differing opinions BS. Because you don't understand how a two way street works.

And **** Ruin Johnson

You know, you've not made one constructive post in this thread in the six days it's been bumped. Not one. You wanna know where this BS started? Right here:

I can't even watch the movie. Maximum of 15 minutes in and I have to quit. Re-Run of the ST is impossible for me. This is simply one of the worst movies ever made.

This is the point the thread went from a constructive discussion to "This is simply one of the worst movies ever made." The line is clear as day who caused this mess, and it wasn't me by pointing something out.

No one started any trouble. People were merely stating their opinions. I ask this in all sincerity, what did you honestly think was going to happen?

I thought people could be mature enough to have a discussion. I was hopeful we could have that discussion without somebody interjecting a conversation about " I have a new detail I noticed" with "This is simply one of the worst movies ever made." It ain't helpful. Nobody ask for their opinion. We know who has what opinion. They've been vocally expressing it for 3 years. We don't care. That wasn't what the conversation was about.

 

[cboath]

I like this movie. It's the sole entry from the sequel trilogy with any vision of its own.
::Cue someone telling me "yeah but it was a TERRIBLE VISION"::

You're not wrong with it having a vision of it's own. And if the vision is bloodlines are dumb and the power can come from wherever - that's great. It just doesn't work too well when you're halfway into a trilogy and you pull a hard right turn that starts putting g-forces on the viewer

You can dig around somewhere - maybe even this thread - where i said something to effect of RJ might have been able to do his idea justice if he had all three parts. That flaw is the unplanned (from the trilogy perspective) hard right turn in the middle. I think RoS kind of validates the hard right turn aspect. If KK and JJ both liked it they wouldn't have undone nearly all of it in RoS. There are ways to try and 'get the fans back' and not undo what was done if you believe winning the fans back was the priority there. However, I think RJ's goal was simply to anger people, or as he put it as 'subvert expectations'. I'll just if you do that, you should make damn sure you do an excellent job of it and make sure you win people to your side. He didn't because that wasn't his goal.

So, in the end, it's possible to have a good idea/vision and not execute it very well in the overall scheme which is I think what happened.

I'm interested to see what he does with a whole trilogy if he gets to do it.

People who like it aren't stupid or idiots or anything of the sort. Being part of discussion, though, means you have to be able to see what the other guy is talking about which is missing in a lot of this thread.

 

[Paul Andrew]

It doesn't make any sense for his goal to have been to anger people. They're in this to keep money coming in. Angry people don't spend money on the thing they're angry with. It just isn't even a little bit logical and I really hate the level of malice that folks attribute to how RJ saw the story unfolding. It reeks of entitlement and a false sense of ownership over the property, as if some folks felt personally attacked because the movie didn't do what they wanted. I am absolutely certain that the intention was to take what everyone expected and change it enough to make you look at it with new eyes while still enjoying it. Clearly it didn't work as intended for everyone (exercising my talent for understatement here).

I do tend to agree that if RJ has been able to craft the overall plot arc of the ST we'd have gotten something a lot more consistent and probably better, and I fully expect that to be fulfilled when/if his trilogy happens.

I dunno. I'm here to like things, not **** on them. And by that, I do not mean that I'm against criticism. I mean that I'm against the type of vitriolic, mean-spirited criticism this film has brought out in some people.

 

[cboath]

There's no way he did what he did to 'subvert expectations' (his own words) without full well knowing he was going to make a lot of people very angry. So, however you want to phrase it, it is what it is. From a critique review, the same thing could have been achieved in a different way that would not have alienated a lot of people.

The vitriol i think comes from people's refusal to admit that the thing didn't suck completely or that it wasn't the greatest thing ever. Kind of like politics these days, no one seems willing to walk the middle ground.

I never thought it was horrible on the whole, but one aspect of it ruined the whole thing for me. Had nothing to do with nitpicking or anything else. Once take that blow, then, yeah, it gets easier to pick it to death. I'm not going to sit here and critique different elements as to me, there's really just one deal breaker. That's me. Others have found other things they don't like, some i can agree with the sentiments, some I don't.

But for the vitriol to subside, people have to be willing to see the other side and enough people won't which makes it a problem.

 

[robn1]

You know, you've not made one constructive post in this thread in the six days it's been bumped. Not one.

So? I'm free to post any opinion or comment in this thread or any other, just as you are. Two way street remember?
I had no interest in your observation so I skipped it, I had no comment to make until you attacked other members for having opinions different from yours.

You wanna know where this BS started? Right here:
This is the point the thread went from a constructive discussion to "This is simply one of the worst movies ever made." The line is clear as day who caused this mess, and it wasn't me by pointing something out.

That's not BS, it's a differing opinion. It's the other traffic on the road, going it's own way, and it has as much right to be on the road as you do.

I thought people could be mature enough to have a discussion. I was hopeful we could have that discussion without somebody interjecting a conversation about " I have a new detail I noticed" with "This is simply one of the worst movies ever made." It ain't helpful. Nobody ask for their opinion. We know who has what opinion. They've been vocally expressing it for 3 years. We don't care. That wasn't what the conversation was about.

This thread does not exist solely for your discussion, it's for EVERY MEMBER OF THIS SITE to express their opinions good bad or indifferent. NO ONE has tried to shut you up or called your theory BS.

It ain't helpful.

It ain't meant to be.

Nobody ask for their opinion.

Nobody asked for yours either. But you're free to make it, just as others who are interested are free to discuss it. Go ahead, no one's stopping you.

They've been vocally expressing it for 3 years.

So has your side, we're all free to do so.

We don't care.

Then drive on by without looking at it.

 

[Paul Andrew]

But for the vitriol to subside, people have to be willing to see the other side and enough people won't which makes it a problem.

For the vitriol to subside people need to take stock of what they're saying and how they're saying it, then make a decision not to be vitriolic. Let's not pretend that the force of others is causing people to be nasty in their criticism.

As far as RJ knowing his choices would make people angry, you couldn't be a Star Wars fan online and not have seen how the group treated George after the prequels. Some level of anger was always going to be there, regardless of what he did with the movie. If the choice is to not make the movie or live with angering some segment of the vast fan base, you make the movie. Correlation is not causation though. Knowing some group of people was going to be pissed with you no matter what you did does not mean that you went ahead with the intention of pissing folks off.

 

[CT1138]

So? I'm free to post any opinion or comment in this thread or any other, just as you are. Two way street remember?
I had no interest in your observation so I skipped it, I had no comment to make until you attacked other members for having opinions different from yours.


That's not BS, it's a differing opinion. It's the other traffic on the road, going it's own way, and it has as much right to be on the road as you do.


This thread does not exist solely for your discussion, it's for EVERY MEMBER OF THIS SITE to express their opinions good bad or indifferent. NO ONE has tried to shut you up or called your theory BS.


It ain't meant to be.


Nobody asked for yours either. But you're free to make it, just as others who are interested are free to discuss it. Go ahead, no one's stopping you.


So has your side, we're all free to do so.


Then drive on by without looking at it.

You keep talking about a two-way street, but if somebody came here posing a question about Starship Troopers, and then somebody else came into the thread, wrote out that Starship Troopers sucks and they hate it, knowing full well that kind of comment would derail the conversation into the shitfest we have now, most people would call that "trolling" not simply having a difference of opinion. There's something called conversational etiquette. When a group of people are having a discussion regarding one particular subject, then somebody jumps in to yell that the subject sucks, that's not having an opinion, that's being rude.

 

[Joek3rr]

So? I'm free to post any opinion or comment in this thread or any other, just as you are. Two way street remember?
I had no interest in your observation so I skipped it, I had no comment to make until you attacked other members for having opinions different from yours.


That's not BS, it's a differing opinion. It's the other traffic on the road, going it's own way, and it has as much right to be on the road as you do.


This thread does not exist solely for your discussion, it's for EVERY MEMBER OF THIS SITE to express their opinions good bad or indifferent. NO ONE has tried to shut you up or called your theory BS.


It ain't meant to be.


Nobody asked for yours either. But you're free to make it, just as others who are interested are free to discuss it. Go ahead, no one's stopping you.


So has your side, we're all free to do so.


Then drive on by without looking at it.

It does get a little tiring. If I had a dollar everytime someone said they hate TLJ I wouldn't have to work. And that's coming from the same few people. We got it the first hundred times, you don't like the movie.

 

[robn1]

You keep talking about a two-way street, but if somebody came here posing a question about Starship Troopers, and then somebody else came into the thread, wrote out that Starship Troopers sucks and they hate it, knowing full well that kind of comment would derail the conversation into the shitfest we have now, most people would call that "trolling" not simply having a difference of opinion. There's something called conversational etiquette. When a group of people are having a discussion regarding one particular subject, then somebody jumps in to yell that the subject sucks, that's not having an opinion, that's being rude.

I hear you, but that's how life works. If someone made a post like that in a build thread it's out of line, but in a general film discussion you gotta take it from all sides.

It does get a little tiring. If I had a dollar everytime someone said they hate TLJ I wouldn't have to work. And that's coming from the same few people. We got it the first hundred times, you don't like the movie.

If I had a dollar for every fan that Ruin Johnson called a racist misogynist manbaby I'd be pretty wealthy too.

 

[The Brahma Bull]

This is the point the thread went from a constructive discussion to "This is simply one of the worst movies ever made." The line is clear as day who caused this mess, and it wasn't me by pointing something out.

Nope it's not the point. The whole discussion went downhill when the studio and Mr Johnson decided to call everybody racist, sexist and so on for simply not liking their movie. Or at that point where the people who liked this movie started to do so too without any reason. Every critical word about this movie was used and turned to denounce people. Even the actors didn't like the movie.