Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

[niennumb1]

It also feels the least Star Wars of all of them. The way the humor was done and calling that place a "Casino" on Canto Bight. It was just short of Johnson deciding to call an actual alien card game Texas Hold'em instead of Sabacc.

 

[LordHorusNL]

Scar??? How?

To me and many others it completely destroys the legacy of the original characters, mainly Luke. And tarnishes a part of what we grew up loving.

I wouldn't mind the new movies so much if it weren't for the fact that they felt the need to include the characters from the original trilogy.

Star Wars always felt special, now it's jut another cookie cutter sci-fi franchise catering to the lowest common denominator.

If you love it, great. But many of us don't.

 

[Joek3rr]

To me and many others it completely destroys the legacy of the original characters, mainly Luke. And tarnishes a part of what we grew up loving.

I wouldn't mind the new movies so much if it weren't for the fact that they felt the need to include the characters from the original trilogy.

Star Wars always felt special, now it's jut another cookie cutter sci-fi franchise catering to the lowest common denominator.

If you love it, great. But many of us don't.

That doesn't answer my question. How does that scene scar the OT?

 

[LordHorusNL]

That doesn't answer my question. How does that scene scar the OT?

Oh you meant that scene in particular? Sorry i was talking about the movie as a whole.

If you mean the scene at the end with Luke sitting on the rock looking into the sunset, that was one of the few scenes i thought actually worked.

 

[Psab keel]

Joek3rr you have 230 pages of debates why many feel the movie didn't work. Do we really need to keep going over the same things?

 

[Joek3rr]

Oh you meant that scene in particular? Sorry i was talking about the movie as a whole.

If you mean the scene at the end with Luke sitting on the rock looking into the sunset, that was one of the few scenes i thought actually worked.

Your, good:thumbsup

I was meaning the section of film from the moment Luke's projection shows up on Crait to him becoming one with the Force.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Joek3rr you have 230 pages of debates why many feel the movie didn't work. Do we really need to keep going over the same things?

...And it wouldn't be 230 pages if everyone felt it didn't work -- or, at least, felt it didn't work in the same way(s) to the same degree(s). I like the movie -- and even love many moments in it -- in spite of the flaws I see in both concept and execution. In terms of productions with issues, I like it far more than Star Trek: Discovery, but nowhere near as much as Solo.

 

[Psab keel]

But at least you could acknowledge flaws, even if you loved the movie overall. Something I don't think Joek3rr is capable or willing to do when it comes to this movie. Though I personally hated it, I can say there were a few elements to it that I liked. I just feel like your insight into TLJ, and that of say Solo4114 seems to be more realistic takes. You can acknowledge what worked and feel comfortable enough in your assessment to acknowledge what didn't work.

Can you honestly do that Joek3rr? It may be difficult for you to understand why some fans don't feel the same way but is it that hard to consider at least some of the points I raised, even if you ultimately don't agree with them? That perhaps from my perspective you could get why I don't feel the way you do? I can certainly understand why you feel the way you do. I don't agree with it, but I get where you're coming from. Is it so hard to say the same to me?

TFA raised a lot of questions and you feel that TLJ answered those questions in a satisfactory way. Is it that hard to CONSIDER that not everyone felt that way? That the questions raised could have been answered in a different way? If you can't answer that question then I wonder if you are interested in having a dialog with your fellow fans or if you're more interested in trying to convince people to see things your way.

I have nothing to gain by people agreeing with me on this point and arguing about the direction of the story isn't going to change anything. I'm just trying to get you to understand where I'm coming from. Is that so hard? TWSS.

 

[DARKSIDE72]

TLJ answered nothing. It only alienated fans.

 

[Joek3rr]

But at least you could acknowledge flaws, even if you loved the movie overall. Something I don't think Joek3rr is capable or willing to do when it comes to this movie. Though I personally hated it, I can say there were a few elements to it that I liked. I just feel like your insight into TLJ, and that of say Solo4114 seems to be more realistic takes. You can acknowledge what worked and feel comfortable enough in your assessment to acknowledge what didn't work.

Can you honestly do that Joek3rr? It may be difficult for you to understand why some fans don't feel the same way but is it that hard to consider at least some of the points I raised, even if you ultimately don't agree with them? That perhaps from my perspective you could get why I don't feel the way you do? I can certainly understand why you feel the way you do. I don't agree with it, but I get where you're coming from. Is it so hard to say the same to me?

TFA raised a lot of questions and you feel that TLJ answered those questions in a satisfactory way. Is it that hard to CONSIDER that not everyone felt that way? That the questions raised could have been answered in a different way? If you can't answer that question then I wonder if you are interested in having a dialog with your fellow fans or if you're more interested in trying to convince people to see things your way.

I have nothing to gain by people agreeing with me on this point and arguing about the direction of the story isn't going to change anything. I'm just trying to get you to understand where I'm coming from. Is that so hard? TWSS.

I accept the movie has flaws. Chief of which is its lack of clarity. Rian wanted the nuanced acting to do everything, when a couple of extra lines could have cleared things up. And left less up for interpretation.

The real reason I do what I do. Is I'm torn seeing the Star Wars fandom torn. Cause in my brain there is no reason to hate TLJ as much as some do, nor for the great division. So yeah I'm trying to convince people to change their mind. In a (vain) attempt to help stich the fandom back together, even just a little bit. But I'm learning it's impossible, because it's just not TLJ we disagree on, it's all of Star Wars. The sequel trilogy was definitely made for those of us who view Star Wars one way. But the other group that views Star Wars the other way, feels like their Star Wars has been stepped upon.

 

[sztriki]

 

[Halliwax]

Isn't him seeing Ben go after his students and his sister and friends enough? It wouldn't the first time he reacted to visions of his friends and loved ones in danger.

And don't forget that it's only in Ben's version of the story that Luke attacks him. The reality is the third scene, where Luke ignites his saber and........that's it. He never goes after Ben, never attacks him.

Where did it say he was going after his sister?

 

[Solo4114]

Delving into medieval European history for a bit... We in the modern era have seriously fallen victim to a centuries-old game of Telephone regarding the "Holy Grail". The accepted notion that it's the cup that holds *****' blood of everlasting life is from later misinterpretations of the earliest Grail stories. Those were originally from a couple Templars -- one German, one French. But in both cases, the Grail isn't a physical object -- it's a discipline, a way of life. It's the striven-for dedication of the Holy Knight to be mindful of himself, of the temptations and distractions the world throws at us, and the ongoing process of re-dedication to the Grail -- a Teutonic word meaning line or path. In a roundabout way, it's where we get the more contemporary saying "walking the straight and narrow".

There's much in Star Wars that draws from this. Including the above. Once a Padawan or other initiate into the Mysteries of the Force becomes aware of Ashla and Bogan, they must learn to be mindful of the presence and influence of each in themselves and work to not skew too far off the balance point. Unfortunately, Lucas forgot all that when he decreed that the Light Side is the true aspect of the Force, with the Dark Side being a warped corruption, and that the Force being in "balance" means -- a fairly unbalanced -- no Dark Side. But the teachings of Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Qui-Gon throughout the OT and PT focus on meditation, self-knowledge, opening up one's awareness to the universe, passivity, calmness... Recognizing emotion, but not letting it drive one. Instinct without attachment. I like to call that the Jedi Grail. Alas, long forgotten by most by the time of the films. At the risk of dancing near the subject of contemporary politics, they've spent the last 4,000 years very determinedly not being Sith, while, over the same span, the Sith have dedicated themselves to not being Jedi. To the point that that could be used to describe each sect. "Sith: Not Jedi". That kind of extreme polarization is both unhealthy and unsustainable.

I always preferred a different analysis. A big part of the Jedi was, I'd argue, the denial of emotion and cutting oneself off from it, at least during the final days of the Old Republic and before the Jedi Purge. In seeking peace and avoidance of allowing emotion to control them, they became cut off from it. By contrast, the Sith are all about passion and emotion. Embrace your hate, channel your fear, etc., etc. The Jedi treat fear as the path to the Dark Side (fear --> hate --> anger --> suffering), so they shun it. I think the "balanced" approach is where one acknowledges and allows oneself to feel strong emotion, but also retains enough rationality to not be a creature of pure id.

I think about this a lot lately with my toddler daughter.

Okay. Explanation forthcoming: The First Order isn't that big. Nowhere near the scope, power, or ability of the Empire. The Empire got going with the full resources of the Galactic Republic behind it. The First Order grew out of Palpatine's contingency plans. It got started not too long after the Battle of Jakku, and undisclosed resources were already in place in the Unknown Regions for those fleeing the fall of the Empire to meet up with, consolidate, and move forward their plans. Over a quarter-century, they have built some ships -- but not the thousands the Empire had, trained many soldiers -- but not the many millions the Empire had, and had been covertly seeking support within known space. By the time of TFA, many ostensibly Republic worlds who miss the "good old days" under the Empire have been funneling support to the First Order.

When and how Snoke got involved in all this is as yet unknown. As unknown as Palpatine's homeworld was in 1980. There's a little bit out there currently that indicates he and Palpatine had some sort of rivalry and Snoke, basically, lost. Not sure if he was exiled or if he fled to the Unknown Regions. He might have been set up in place by Palpatine in the event this day came. He might have been out there and, in Palpatine's absence, was able to take advantage and take over.

At this point in the OT narrative, we knew there was an Empire, thus an Emperor was implicit. He was spoken to have dissolved the Senate and conferred governance directly to the regional Moffs. He looked old and spooky in the larger-than-life hologram conversation he had with Vader. I remember speculation as to whether that was really the Emperor or a Wizard of Oz style simulacrum. Vader addressed him as "Master", but sought to overthrow him with the help of his son. Thanks to the Star Wars novelization, we knew his name was Palpatine. And that's pretty much it. So, so far, I'm seeing a parity. For that matter, the Prequels didn't go into how the Republic formed or how Vallorum got elected or the inner workings of Naboo's weird political/governmental structure, etc.

There's a lot that is missing from the ST, and the transition from ROTJ to TFA is probably the biggest single "HUH?!" introduced by the ST, I'd say. Everythign else flows from there. Admittedly, much of the details aren't relevant to the instant story, but I think (1) the opening crawl could've clarified things a bit better, (2) less reliance on "mystery box" style writing to manipulate audience engagement, and (3) some more expository language (and one less Rathtar sequence...) would've helped immensely to set the stage. But, all that said "So, wait, where'd Snoke come from?" isn't really any more relevant than "So, wait, where'd Palpatine come from?" We don't need tons of details, but offering a LITTLE background would've helped.

Here's the frustrating thing about how this has all played out... I am keenly feeling my lack of a Doctorate in psychology. There's something going on here that I can only vaguely put my finger on. Early discussions felt rational. To keep it on TLJ, there were a lot of elements in the film that some people seeing it caught/understood, while others didn't. Fine. But where things started to break down was when those points were clarified, some apparently refused to accept them and stuck to being angry about something that didn't actually exist.

This has been compounded by elements of the movie that some people subjectively don't like. I'll cite Poe's crank-calling Hux. I love that scene. Everyone I've watched the film with loves that scene. In the theater on opening night, there were many laughs. Yet I see a bunch of folks on here who hate that scene with the fury of a thousand suns, and I cannot figure out why. It is utterly in keeping with Poe's character as established in TFA. Strategically it makes sense -- a single fighter managing to utterly preoccupy the senior leadership of the enemy task force and buying time for the Resistance's bug-out efforts. Not bad.

Part of all that is the perplexing phenomenon of people referencing their subjective dislikes as objective fact, when it so very isn't. Doesn't matter how much agreement there is out there for those viewpoints -- they're still subjective. There are a depressing number of Flat-Earthers, for instance. Doesn't make them right just because they have peer agreement.

Dunnin-Krueger/"double-down"/backfire effect? Basically, when someone emotionally believes X, if you come at them with "But I have lots of facts that run counter to your emotional position and prove you wrong!" they double down and it reinforces their beliefs. In other words, objective fact isn't really able to trump deeply held subjective emotion.

Within the context of art, I think that's mostly understandable. Art has objective qualities to it, and you can certainly claim that some readings of a given work are flat-out wrong, but art also is inextricably tied to emotion and is meant to provoke emotion (one way or the other), so it's entirely understandable that someone would feel a particular way and stick to that, as well as respond negatively to someone who attacked their feelings and told them that the feelings themselves were wrong. People feel how they feel. They generally don't like being told "You shouldn't be angry about that. That's silly." Yeah? Well I'm still angry, and now I'm MORE angry at YOU for TELLING me my anger was silly!

There are a lot of things, subtle and gross, to be earnestly discussed about TLJ. For all my technical and stylistic gripes, I like it a lot and have watched it a few times on home-video. My love for Star Wars is undimmed, and I am excited to see what happens next -- in Resistance, in The Mandalorian, in the books and comics... Even, guardedly, Episode IX. I am in whole-hearted agreement they should have taken a page from Kevin Fiege's playbook and at least roughly mapped out where they wanted things to go and ridden herd on the writing process for all the new films we've gotten. Too many reshoots, too much second- and third-guessing, too much Mystery Box, too many changes in approach to past precedent, too much story compression... Hell, with the plot points hit so far in TFA and TLJ (and the plot points that should have been part of TFA to not leave the audience at sea), I've mapped out a good five films they could have done, with much better pacing and story/character development...

But that's a far cry from feeling they've ruined Star Wars, and having it affect one's love for the setting in its entirety. That's what baffles and saddens me. And I struggle to even begin to understand the mental workings behind that outlook, as it is so very much not my own. Most of those folks, and a few others, keep repeating demonstrably inaccurate or subjective opinions as if everyone thinks that way -- or should -- and refuse to consider contrary opinions. People whose opinions I normally generally respect on the RPF I just wanna slap in these threads, and I don't like feeling that way (well... about most of you ).

Scar??? How?

I'll answer this, having gone through it myself. This is a bit less true for me now than it used to be, but there are aspects that still hold up. Personally, I have a much harder time "unseeing" something I've seen, especially if I didn't like it. When I watch a long-running story, I have a hard time ignoring where it ends up or, in some cases, how it got there. Bad endings in particular -- or at least ones I find deeply unsatisfying -- are the worst. If I know that something I love is building up to a wet fart at the end, it basically kills my desire to consume any portion of the work in the future.

Example: I haven't watched a Matrix film since I saw Matrix Revolutions. I LOVED the first movie. Used to watch it a bunch. I thought Reloaded was...pretty weak, really. But while I get the themes of the 3rd film, I found it horribly anticlimactic and unsatisfying to the point where it tarnished my ability to enjoy the original film (not without a LOT of distance. I could probably rewatch it now).

Example 2: I've never rewatched the entire run of How I Met Your Mother. That's because not only was the final season atrocious, but the ending fundamentally did not work for me, and was extremely poorly executed. Again, I get what the writers were trying to do, but I think they seriously f-ed up. More importantly, because of how that show actually ends, I have zero desire to rewatch any of it, and that was a show that spoke to me deeply when I was in my late 20s and early 30s.

When it feels to me like a story I love has gone completely off the rails, no matter how good the first few chapters are, I can't really enjoy them unless I can somehow cordon them off from the rest of the story. This is possible with Star Wars. You can always just watch the (O)OT and ignore everything else, but it's still deeply frustrating when it feels like something you love and have devoted a lot of time and energy towards has shifted away from you, and you had no say in the matter. It's also different from when you just...eh...don't love something as much anymore and move on from it, but the fundamental thing remains the same.

Meanwhile, regarding the saber toss that's been discussed... I get where Rian was coming from. I agree that with where Luke was at that point in the story, tossing the saber made the most sense... But not the trope-y blind shoulder toss. Not just because it's a trope. Remember what Lucas said -- "It's like poem. It rhymes." This was a perfect but missed opportunity to echo a couple beats from earlier in the saga that would telegraph Luke's inner turmoil much more effectively than was done. We have the POV-ish shot of him looking down at the saber in his hands. But then, try this: We see the direction of his chain of thought when, still in that POV-ish shot, he shifts his focus to, and flexes, his mechanical hand, kinda like this...

https://i.imgur.com/TnA2hnH.gif

...and then we cut to a reaction shot of Luke more from where Rey's standing as he looks back up at her, wonder closing down to grim determination on his face as he tosses the saber -- not over his shoulder, but more like this, say...

https://pa1.narvii.com/6087/b8e5e751ace398935386088e4515d4622c69ad98_hq.gif

...then tells her to go away and walks off.

I actually would've really liked that. I think it would've helped tonally. I don't dislike the tone of Luke's performance, mind you, but I think "sad and embittered old mystic" would've gone over better with audiences than "curmudgeonly 'get off my lawn, you kids' retired warrior".

TFA raised a lot of questions and you feel that TLJ answered those questions in a satisfactory way. Is it that hard to CONSIDER that not everyone felt that way? That the questions raised could have been answered in a different way? If you can't answer that question then I wonder if you are interested in having a dialog with your fellow fans or if you're more interested in trying to convince people to see things your way.

I have nothing to gain by people agreeing with me on this point and arguing about the direction of the story isn't going to change anything. I'm just trying to get you to understand where I'm coming from. Is that so hard? TWSS.

I think TFA raised a bunch of questions. A bunch of them it left unanswered, because answering them would actually distract from the story. I blame TFA for that, though, not TLJ itself. Other things TLJ answered. I can see where those answers wouldn't be satisfying for some folks. But I also think that the good news is that you could probably "undo" the answers (e.g. Rey's parentage), while still retaining the core importance of the events of TLJ on Rey's character.

Consider: If it turnes out that Rey's folks really were nobodies, then that reinforces one of my favorite parts of TLJ: that anyone can be a hero and a Jedi. It's not about destiny or bloodline. But EVEN IF we find out that Rey's folks were on-the-run Force sensitives or somesuch, the point is that at the critical moment Rey believed them to be nobodies, and triumphed in spite of that belief. It would undercut some of the heroism if she has a leg-up because of inherited abilities, but it wouldn't eliminate the true heroic aspect, which is that when she believed she was worthless, she made herself into something more.

 

[Joek3rr]

Where did it say he was going after his sister?

"He would bring destruction, and pain, and death, and the end of everything I love."

I'm assuming he referring to Leia and Han and such. Whatever he saw, Ben was using his unstable lightsaber, as you can hear the distinctive crackling.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I always preferred a different analysis. A big part of the Jedi was, I'd argue, the denial of emotion and cutting oneself off from it, at least during the final days of the Old Republic and before the Jedi Purge. In seeking peace and avoidance of allowing emotion to control them, they became cut off from it. By contrast, the Sith are all about passion and emotion. Embrace your hate, channel your fear, etc., etc. The Jedi treat fear as the path to the Dark Side (fear --> hate --> anger --> suffering), so they shun it. I think the "balanced" approach is where one acknowledges and allows oneself to feel strong emotion, but also retains enough rationality to not be a creature of pure id.

I think about this a lot lately with my toddler daughter.

Oh, I agree with you 100%. The balance I was referring to was more evident prior to the modern era -- Tales of the Jedi, Dawn of the Jedi, the Bendu in Rebels, etc.

There's a lot that is missing from the ST, and the transition from ROTJ to TFA is probably the biggest single "HUH?!" introduced by the ST, I'd say. Everythign else flows from there. Admittedly, much of the details aren't relevant to the instant story, but I think (1) the opening crawl could've clarified things a bit better, (2) less reliance on "mystery box" style writing to manipulate audience engagement, and (3) some more expository language (and one less Rathtar sequence...) would've helped immensely to set the stage. But, all that said "So, wait, where'd Snoke come from?" isn't really any more relevant than "So, wait, where'd Palpatine come from?" We don't need tons of details, but offering a LITTLE background would've helped.

Also, in complete agreement. Regarding "much of the details aren't relevant to the instant story"... Bridging eras is a tough thing to address right now. In May of 2005, we now had a pretty abrupt jump from the end of ROTS to the beginning of ANH. Last thing we see in Episode III is Yoda going into exile (still maintain we shouldn't see him until ESB), Bail and Breha on Alderaan with an infant Leia, Vader and Palpatine overseeing the early construction of the Death Star, Padme's funeral cortege, and Obi-Wan handing infant Luke off to Beru and riding off into the desert. Not much there to set up the Rebellion -- especially since the scene in ROTS of the opposition senators discussing the lengths they may need to go to to fight Palpatine was cut. So when we start ANH with "It is a period of civil war" and the events that immediately precede the film, that's definitely a necessary thumbnail of the intervening nineteen years.

But now we have Solo and Rogue One helping bridge things, let alone Rebels, but I'm just talking movies. So we see in Solo that the Mimbanese are rebelling against Imperial occupation (was Chewbacca there helping them and got captured?), and Enfys Nest's Marauders are one of those isolated resistance cells like what Saw is operating on Jeddha some years later in Rogue One. We have now seen on the big screen the first stirrings of the Rebellion and its coalescence into a legitimate threat to the Empire. So ANH sort of becomes the end of that story, rather than the beginning of a new one -- despite introducing the new protagonist.

So now, the gap between ROTJ and ANH is half again more than the gap between ROTS and ANH, and we have no bridging stories on the big screen yet (if ever). The opening crawl tells us there's a Republic and a First Order and that Luke has disappeared and Leia is looking for him. That is, to me, both too much and not enough. Not counting the more well-thought-out approach and structure I've taken with my rewrites and the whole three trilogies of trilogies epicycles thing, but kjust looking at what we've got, I feel like Solo, Rogue One, and ANH should be episodes IV, V, and VI. Then, after a gap, we pick up again with Luke and his story. ESB and ROTJ would be episodes VII and VIII, respectively, and if -- a la the decade between episodes I and II -- we had another film picking up his story a decade or so after ROTJ, we could remove the burden from the "ST" to fill in everything that's happened in over a generation of galactic civilization, and maybe tie things up a bit more like ROTS did heading into the next phase of the story.

Now, if we ever get any other "standalone" movies that work as part of the larger saga between that and TFA -- maybe with Luke and Ben out in the Unknown Regions dodging run-ins with a proto-First Order, maybe helping establish the New Republic on the big screen even a little (no, one short scene as the capitol is blown up doesn't count), it would make that transition less jarring. Especially for people who thought they knew what happened to Luke, Leia, and Han after the Ewok party.

There is a lot out there already that covers exactly that. So I have no issues bridging the eras. I know there's a whole lot yet still unseen. I've only seen a couple stories in that period so far chronicling the adventures of "Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight". But, it shouldn't be necessary to have at least read the Wiki summaries of Shattered Empire, the Aftermath trilogy, the campaign story of Battlefront II, those episodes of Forces of Destiny and short stories in the Star Wars Insider that take place after ROTJ, the coda of Rebels, Last Shot, Bloodline, Phasma, and a smattering of comics and comic miniseries and one-shots to be up to speed on even a partial picture of what's happened in those thirty years. The tone needs to transition. ROTS ends on a down note as the Empire is on the rise, and ANH opens on much the same note. Even with SOlo and Rogue one in between, it holds. But ROTJ ends on an up note, while TFA starts on a down note. That doesn't work, and I have hopes that something cinematic -- not relying on other media -- will bridge that, taking the positive note ROTJ ends on and tempering it into the apprehensive note TFA leads off with.

Consider: If it turnes out that Rey's folks really were nobodies, then that reinforces one of my favorite parts of TLJ: that anyone can be a hero and a Jedi. It's not about destiny or bloodline. But EVEN IF we find out that Rey's folks were on-the-run Force sensitives or somesuch, the point is that at the critical moment Rey believed them to be nobodies, and triumphed in spite of that belief. It would undercut some of the heroism if she has a leg-up because of inherited abilities, but it wouldn't eliminate the true heroic aspect, which is that when she believed she was worthless, she made herself into something more.

Luke thought he was a nobody, too, when he popped the Death Star. Yeah, Obi-Wan rocked his world by telling him his dad was actually a somebody and he could be, too, but one day of that on the heels of nineteen years of being a backwater nobody farmboy would keep that from sinking in right away. And Anakin was a nobody -- less than nobody, a slave -- when he took out the Trade Federation's control ship, helped save Naboo, and got to start training as a Jedi.

Not disagreeing with you. Just saying that one can have an illustrious background (hero of the Clone Wars, divine conception and "virgin birth"), but still have rude beginnings to rise above. Rey doesn't have to be a nobody from nobodies. I'd argue the whole "I am not my family" thing is an important part of a Hero's Journey, whether one comes from privilege or poverty -- the Hero is still trying to find and distinguish themself, hoever good or bad or famous or nondescript their upbringing, parentage, home, background, etc.

That said, I'd almost rather have not seen so much of Rey's vision in TFA, and not sure about the one in TLJ. Kinda feeling too many visions. In the entire OT, the only one we saw was the apparition in the cave on Dagobah. We didn't see the "city in the clouds" or Luke's friends in pain. I also wish we didn't have any flashbacks. We never did in the entirety of the PT or OT, or even Solo. But. My point. If we hadn't seen that ship leaving her on Jakku, we wouldn't have this whole damn thing about her parents and background. She'd just be presumed to have been born there (as we presumed with Luke until the Prequels), and we could take her insight from Ahch-To on face value. If things got revealed later that turned that on its ear, that'd be adding to the story, rather than confusing it. And I'd still argue that there's nothing illustrious about Luke being a Skywalker. His dad rose from obscurity, his mom's family on Naboo were middle-class. He himself was a farmhand for his step-dad on a marginal world. Even if Rey were of that bloodline, it's only been a thing for less than a century.

 

[Huyang]

im with joek3rr, what flaws? its a fantastic film and couch producers may feel one way or another. however i feel it was a lovely surprise and different. i loved TLJ and was super satisfied after seeing it. also i can't imagine why they would not touch on all the other things people were miffed at in the future. we didn't need to know much honestly, we didn't need to know anything at all, they covered what was important to move forward with and the rest will come one way or another and we will love it. trust the process. it will work if you work it.

 

[Bigdaddy]

Personally, I have a much harder time "unseeing" something I've seen, especially if I didn't like it.

I agree with your whole post but this really struck me. It's the reason I've never seen a sequel to The Highlander or any of the TV shows. Though seeing TLJ didn't "damage" the OOT for me, I started looking at the original films more critically than I used to.

 

[Solo4114]

I enjoyed most of the comics, I am so tired of all this fighting though... I used Star Wars to escape real world problems..

All the negativity around politics and the world.. Star Wars was my escape, now to see all this crap I’m completely lost and need a new escape..

With winter slowly closing in cycling is coming to a close.. I don’t know what I’m gonna do now..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Allow me to introduce you to....the West End Games (WEG) Star Wars Role Playing Game!!

Released initially in 1987, the WEG Star Wars Role Playing Game works using WEG's D6 system. It's a very fast and loose system that encourages fast play and action-packed gaming. The game had three(ish) editions and a TON of source books, as well as several game modules (pre-made adventures).

The first edition was probably the fastest and loosest, with the shortest list of skills for characters to take. (Which means that you spend less time figuring out which precise skill you want to use or raise, and mostly just fit the existing skills to the action you want to take.) The 2nd edition added a bunch more and changed some other aspects of the game. 2.5 edition (also known as "Revised & Expanded") added some more and tweaked other things from 2.0.

Some interesting points: most of the stuff in the old EU either came from or was added to the wide range of source books. Some of the old EU novels got their own source books, too (e.g., there's one for each of the Thrawn Trilogy books). Locations, technology, races, etc. all were developed from the game. Before WEG's game, Ithorians were just "Hammerheads," for example.

So, if you're looking for something you can do indoors in colder months where you can really immerse yourself in some old-school Star Wars, but you'd like it to cater to YOUR specific preferences for how that all works, check the game out. You can find copies of most of the old books on Ebay for not too much. My advice is to look for the books in lot listings and buy in bulk. It's more expensive in the short term, but it's usually cheaper than buying individual books. They aren't too expensive, really, and haven't really appreciated in value (which is good -- no speculation market driving up prices like old Graflex 3-cells in the mid-to-late 90s...). Also, Fantasy Flight Games just re-released the original game handbook and sourcebook in a single package, so you can buy those books (which, at the end of the day, is really all you absolutely need) brand spankin' new if you want.

There's also a pretty active fan community (albeit a small one) over at rancorpit.com, and a fairly active Google Plus community (although we'll see what happens to it when Plus shuts down).

 

[Solo4114]

I agree with your whole post but this really struck me. It's the reason I've never seen a sequel to The Highlander or any of the TV shows. Though seeing TLJ didn't "damage" the OOT for me, I started looking at the original films more critically than I used to.

Wise choice. Nothing beyond the first highlander is worth a damn. Maybe the show, but I never really checked it out much. Too soured by the awful sequels. It's a great concept that has had consistently lousy execution in sequel material.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

The show has a slow start, but gets good (before jumping the shark a bit). Highlander: Endgame is a good bookend. Highlander 2 can be ignored, except perhaps on it's own, and as the Renegade Cut. And Highlander 3 is also not worth mentioning. It's essentially a redux of the first film with a different actor playing basically the same villain. The animated and spin-off series are also not worth a look-in.

So yeah -- extended edition of Highlander, the series, Endgame. Nice, tidy arc.