Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

[Joek3rr]

I am in whole-hearted agreement they should have taken a page from Kevin Fiege's playbook and at least roughly mapped out where they wanted things to go and ridden herd on the writing process for all the new films we've gotten. Too many reshoots, too much second- and third-guessing, too much Mystery Box, too many changes in approach to past precedent, too much story compression... Hell, with the plot points hit so far in TFA and TLJ (and the plot points that should have been part of TFA to not leave the audience at sea), I've mapped out a good five films they could have done, with much better pacing and story/character development...

So I don't think Star Wars has had the same level of planning that Marvel has had (what other franchise has though?) But I think there has been more planning then we give them credit for. For instance, Luke and Rey's relationship was hammered out before Rey was called Rey, and Daisy was cast to play her. Things like her finding Luke's submerged X-wing and her and Luke fighting each other with her winning. Was all done originally for TFA. And then there are the uncanny similarities between in some scenes of George's 'Strange Magic' and TFA.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

So I don't think Star Wars has had the same level of planning that Marvel has had (what other franchise has though?) But I think there has been more planning then we give them credit for. For instance, Luke and Rey's relationship was hammered out before Rey was called Rey, and Daisy was cast to play her. Things like her finding Luke's submerged X-wing and her and Luke fighting each other with her winning. Was all done originally for TFA. And then there are the uncanny similarities between in some scenes of George's 'Strange Magic' and TFA.

Oh, I get that. I know a lot of the beats in the ST are from the treatments George left with LFL as part of the Disney sale. Heck, I'd call that part of the problem. He's a great worldbuilder, like Tolkien, but he sucks as a storyteller, like Tolkien -- but to the opposite extreme. Tolkien wrote like a history book, not a dramatist. Not as bad as Robert Jordan and his fifty million plot threads, but still. Lucas, on the other hand, has been hyper-compressing story due to his lack of writing skill (and general distaste for it) since after Empire.

But I know things have been shuffled around since then my LFL and the creatives involved in the ST. I know TFA could have been even more crowded. I just mean that, between TFA and TLJ, the one-page story breakdowns should have been checked a bit more for narrative pacing. Because I can't help but feel they weren't run past anyone in an evaluatory context. The complete bafflement at what's going in in TFA should have been caught. The harshness of the intercutting in TLJ should have been caught. Etc. Someone who's a skilled storyteller -- not necessarily an experienced director, 'cause they're not necessarily the same thing -- should have looked at the proposed stories of those episodes. They would have spotted the structural problems immediately. If there's too much that's supposed to happen between ROTJ and TFA to encapsulate conveniently, then maybe don't start the new content there. Maybe a series or some standalone films or another trilogy or something to help bridge the gap and lay out some of the broad strokes, so people don't feel like the characters are "all wrong".

Anyway, resuscitating actual discussion of TLJ, I just recently ran across something from this past summer. I feel like an idiot for not having noticed it in the film in any of my viewings prior, but once it was pointed out to me, I went back and watched and danged if she isn't right... An internet journalist posted on her Tumblr/blog something about Rey's fighting style in TLJ. No one else mentioned anything like it in this thread, so I will now:

I don’t have the patience or fortitude for a long meta, but I watched TLJ again today (the first time since the last time I saw it in the cinema), and something occurred to me that seems really obvious but that I hadn’t noticed before and that I haven’t seen others mention (apologies if I have missed meta that talk about this). It’s the scene on Ahch-To when Rey is practicing with the lightsaber. Luke is watching her practice, and he gets this look on his face.

I’d noticed it before and hadn’t thought much of it, but this time it struck me that he probably recognizes her fighting style, because it’s Ben’s. We’re all familiar with this idea - that during their showdown on Starkiller Base Rey dipped into Kylo’s mind and borrowed his fighting knowledge - and I think this reaction from Luke is further proof of this.
I went looking for parallel examples of Ben’s lightsaber technique to back this up, and I found it in an interesting place: his showdown with Luke on Crait. (My gifs are a little slow, but I think that’s okay since it makes their movements a bit easier to see.)
First, Rey opens her practice by holding her lightsaber straight ahead.

So does Ben.

Then she moves into some backhand swings.

So does Ben. (Note that Luke anticipates his move - Luke trained him, so presumably he knows what he’s going to do.)

Rey follows up the backhand swings with a bunch of two-handed swingy chops. She’s pretty intense. (It’s after this that Luke makes the face in the gif up top.) (And check out her face, she’s all GRRRR, I love it.)

Ben: SWING CHOP CHOP (two hands!)

Finally, Rey gets a little too into it and slices through the stone outcropping.

And what is it that Ben does? Uh huh.

So I started this wanting to prove that Luke recognizes Ben’s fighting style in Rey, and I think that is definitely the case, but at the same time I think I’ve also shown that Rey’s lightsaber practice is a foreshadowing of the showdown between Luke and Ben on Crait. If that isn’t very cool, I don’t know what is.
I really, really, really love this movie.

As much as I take Rian to task for some things in the film, that is brilliantl and subtle and I take it as an artifact of Snoke bridging Kylo's and Rey's minds.

Meanwhile, regarding the saber toss that's been discussed... I get where Rian was coming from. I agree that with where Luke was at that point in the story, tossing the saber made the most sense... But not the trope-y blind shoulder toss. Not just because it's a trope. Remember what Lucas said -- "It's like poem. It rhymes." This was a perfect but missed opportunity to echo a couple beats from earlier in the saga that would telegraph Luke's inner turmoil much more effectively than was done. We have the POV-ish shot of him looking down at the saber in his hands. But then, try this: We see the direction of his chain of thought when, still in that POV-ish shot, he shifts his focus to, and flexes, his mechanical hand, kinda like this...

...and then we cut to a reaction shot of Luke more from where Rey's standing as he looks back up at her, wonder closing down to grim determination on his face as he tosses the saber -- not over his shoulder, but more like this, say...

...then tells her to go away and walks off.

 

[Joek3rr]

Oh, I get that. I know a lot of the beats in the ST are from the treatments George left with LFL as part of the Disney sale. Heck, I'd call that part of the problem. He's a great worldbuilder, like Tolkien, but he sucks as a storyteller, like Tolkien -- but to the opposite extreme. Tolkien wrote like a history book, not a dramatist. Not as bad as Robert Jordan and his fifty million plot threads, but still. Lucas, on the other hand, has been hyper-compressing story due to his lack of writing skill (and general distaste for it) since after Empire.

But I know things have been shuffled around since then my LFL and the creatives involved in the ST. I know TFA could have been even more crowded. I just mean that, between TFA and TLJ, the one-page story breakdowns should have been checked a bit more for narrative pacing. Because I can't help but feel they weren't run past anyone in an evaluatory context. The complete bafflement at what's going in in TFA should have been caught. The harshness of the intercutting in TLJ should have been caught. Etc. Someone who's a skilled storyteller -- not necessarily an experienced director, 'cause they're not necessarily the same thing -- should have looked at the proposed stories of those episodes. They would have spotted the structural problems immediately. If there's too much that's supposed to happen between ROTJ and TFA to encapsulate conveniently, then maybe don't start the new content there. Maybe a series or some standalone films or another trilogy or something to help bridge the gap and lay out some of the broad strokes, so people don't feel like the characters are "all wrong".

Anyway, resuscitating actual discussion of TLJ, I just recently ran across something from this past summer. I feel like an idiot for not having noticed it in the film in any of my viewings prior, but once it was pointed out to me, I went back and watched and danged if she isn't right... An internet journalist posted on her Tumblr/blog something about Rey's fighting style in TLJ. No one else mentioned anything like it in this thread, so I will now:



As much as I take Rian to task for some things in the film, that is brilliantl and subtle and I take it as an artifact of Snoke bridging Kylo's and Rey's minds.

Meanwhile, regarding the saber toss that's been discussed... I get where Rian was coming from. I agree that with where Luke was at that point in the story, tossing the saber made the most sense... But not the trope-y blind shoulder toss. Not just because it's a trope. Remember what Lucas said -- "It's like poem. It rhymes." This was a perfect but missed opportunity to echo a couple beats from earlier in the saga that would telegraph Luke's inner turmoil much more effectively than was done. We have the POV-ish shot of him looking down at the saber in his hands. But then, try this: We see the direction of his chain of thought when, still in that POV-ish shot, he shifts his focus to, and flexes, his mechanical hand, kinda like this...

https://i.imgur.com/TnA2hnH.gif

...and then we cut to a reaction shot of Luke more from where Rey's standing as he looks back up at her, wonder closing down to grim determination on his face as he tosses the saber -- not over his shoulder, but more like this, say...

https://pa1.narvii.com/6087/b8e5e751ace398935386088e4515d4622c69ad98_hq.gif

...then tells her to go away and walks off.

I've seen the fighting style comparison before. I love it!

Which makes me think of something. Have you ever seen pictures where they show the three main characters of each trilogy? They always show Anakin - Padme - Obi-Wan, Luke - Leia - Han, Rey - Finn - Poe. But never Ben. Even though he's a Skywalker, he's never shown in the line up. Because that would make 4 main characters. Or does it? It's made me wonder if Ben and Rey aren't being considered as one character. Two halfs of a whole. The light and dark being joined together by compassionate love. Much like the Star Wars yin yang I showed earlier, which has a symbol in the middle of it. Maybe my mind is just running wild.

And the saber toss. Could him throwing it over his shoulder been dictated by the landscape? Considering that they needed it to end up on the cliff side so Rey would see the X-Wing. For him to have thrown in that direction without going over his shoulder he would have had to turn his back to Rey. And that would have looked really goofy.

As much as I love the saber toss. If I were directing I would have done it a little different. I think one line from Luke as he tossed it like- "no" or "never again" would have made it a whole lot better.

 

[Halliwax]

You want Luke’s character redeemed in ep9? Easy..

Show in ep9 that when Luke was reading ben’s mind in the hut. He sees Ben, slaughter the temple including his wife and daughter..

This would allow me to accept him igniting that lightsaber and going after Ben

 

[Joek3rr]

You want Luke’s character redeemed in ep9? Easy..

Show in ep9 that when Luke was reading ben’s mind in the hut. He sees Ben, slaughter the temple including his wife and daughter..

This would allow me to accept him igniting that lightsaber and going after Ben

Isn't him seeing Ben go after his students and his sister and friends enough? It wouldn't the first time he reacted to visions of his friends and loved ones in danger.

And don't forget that it's only in Ben's version of the story that Luke attacks him. The reality is the third scene, where Luke ignites his saber and........that's it. He never goes after Ben, never attacks him.

 

[egosheep]

As much as I take Rian to task for some things in the film, that is brilliantl and subtle and I take it as an artifact of Snoke bridging Kylo's and Rey's minds.

I agree this is my favorite part of TLJ. I made a gif of it here. It's interesting that Rian has never spoken about it. It does seem to prove that Rey took a lot of Kylo's training when she invaded his mind in TFA... which is a concept that I loathe. People call this a feminist film when the reason Rey is powerful is because Kylo is powerful. Anything she does that's insanely OP can be blamed on the mind meld.

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

Have you ever seen pictures where they show the three main characters of each trilogy? They always show Anakin - Padme - Obi-Wan, Luke - Leia - Han, Rey - Finn - Poe. But never Ben. Even though he's a Skywalker, he's never shown in the line up. Because that would make 4 main characters. Or does it? It's made me wonder if Ben and Rey aren't being considered as one character. Two halfs of a whole. The light and dark being joined together by compassionate love. Much like the Star Wars yin yang I showed earlier, which has a symbol in the middle of it. Maybe my mind is just running wild.

Enh. Ben's an antagonist. The triptychs are of the protagonist (Obi-Wan, Luke, Rey) and their closest allies/friends. Not necessarily a Skywalker. Whether he's good but confused or evil but sucks at it, Ben's still an antagonist -- that which thwarts the Hero in achieving his/her goals. An antagonist is not necessarily evil (but, while simplistic, it can help). Ben is a much more complex antagonist than, say, Vader was originally conceived as. But I won't speculate on his arc from where we are now. It could go so many directions, and any of them could be done well or badly. As I said before, if he does turn back, how the heck can he atone for all he's done as Kylo? If he doesn't, it could be part of Rey having to learn not everything can be fixed. Even if he stays on the Dark-ish Side, he might walk away from the First Order and just become a lone fringer. Could even potentially pave the way for someone like Cade Skywalker a century further on.

But I do truly hope for no romance, there. I want her to stick to her "you're a monster" guns, Especially after how he responded to her entreaties on the Supremacy. I'm curious to see the state of their mindlink now that Snoke's not around to enhance it.

And the saber toss. Could him throwing it over his shoulder been dictated by the landscape? Considering that they needed it to end up on the cliff side so Rey would see the X-Wing. For him to have thrown in that direction without going over his shoulder he would have had to turn his back to Rey. And that would have looked really goofy.

Not necessarily -- the scene would have just been blocked slightly differently to allow for the demands of the shot(s).

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

I agree this is my favorite part of TLJ. I made a gif of it here. It's interesting that Rian has never spoken about it. It does seem to prove that Rey took a lot of Kylo's training when she invaded his mind in TFA... which is a concept that I loathe. People call this a feminist film when the reason Rey is powerful is because Kylo is powerful. Anything she does that's insanely OP can be blamed on the mind meld.

I don't think it's that, though. I think the link was made when he probed her mind and she instinctively pushed back -- but too hard and ended up in his. But after that, she was still using staff forms when lightsaber-fighting against him on the Starkiller. By the time of her exercises on Ahch-To, Snoke's been doing his Force-Skype thing btween them, so I'd say both the rage and the technique she exhibits are unconsciously "downloaded" from the other end of her link. As I said in my previous post, I'm curious to see how she is as that fades again now that Snoke's gone.

 

[nickytea]

Anyone who wants this thread to "end" can quite simply unsubscribe from it. A very clever functionality for those who are reasonable enough to allow the continuation of a conversation that others still wish to have, even when they do not.

Or you can come to the same, spiritually redemptive conclusion that Luke comes to regarding that thing he thought it was time to end ...

"THIS WILL NOT BE THE LAST LAST JEDI THREAD!"

 

[Inquisitor Peregrinus]

"THIS WILL NOT BE THE LAST LAST JEDI THREAD!"

 

[Psab keel]

OK that made me laugh. :lol

 

[Huyang]

After watching twice this week, I gotta day, I love TLJ. The empty questions.....I like, the set up....I like, the exploring the story through other means....I like. Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson, I love.

We have a lot of great scenes and cinematography in TLJ.

 

[Joek3rr]

After watching twice this week, I gotta day, I love TLJ. The empty questions.....I like, the set up....I like, the exploring the story through other means....I like. Kathleen Kennedy and Rian Johnson, I love.

We have a lot of great scenes and cinematography in TLJ.

(In my opinion) The end with Luke('s projection) on Crait, is one of, if not the coolest scenes in all of Star Wars.

Had to edit it for those super touchy people

 

[PantheraGem]

Except he was never on Crait.

 

[Jaitea]

In my opinion, that end with Luke on Crait, is one of, if not the coolest scenes in all of Star Wars.

Fixed that for you

J

 

[Joek3rr]

Fixed that for you

J

I don't understand how a true Star Wars fan cannot like that scene.........it really boggles the mind.

 

[LordHorusNL]

I don't understand how a true Star Wars fan cannot like that scene.........it really boggles the mind.

And many true Star Wars fans cant understand how anybody could actually like any scene in TLJ.

Many of us see it for what it truly is, the scar on the face of the original trilogy.

 

[Joek3rr]

And many true Star Wars fans cant understand how anybody could actually like any scene in TLJ.

Many of us see it for what it truly is, the scar on the face of the original trilogy.

Scar??? How?

 

[joshvanrad]

I don't understand how a true Star Wars fan cannot like that scene.........it really boggles the mind.

Because it's bad. It is nothing but style over substance. There, I helped you understand. Don't worry though, I don't need any thanks.

 

[DARTH ANIBAL]

Many of us see it for what it truly is, the scar on the face of the original trilogy.

Scar??? How?

Because he doesn't like it, so it "truly is". Those of us who like/love it, feel we're right about our opinion of it, too.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

You keep loving it. Let them hate it. Their opinion ain't gonna change ours/mine, and ours isn't gonna change theirs. Do you need them to like it for you to enjoy it? I sure don't.