Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)
- Thread starter dbuck
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Show me the reviews that say that Luke was an utter failure because he left Dagobah to try and save his friends. That's what I'm arguing.
Star Wars has always received mixed reviews anyway so I don't see how this is relevant?
The OT is the blueprint. Everything that has come out since will always be compared to it whether fairly or unfairly.
Why do I keep posting here? This is pathetic. The movie sucked and I hated it. I'm not going to change anyone's mind. I'm wasting my time.
Star Wars has always received mixed reviews anyway so I don't see how this is relevant?
The OT is the blueprint. Everything that has come out since will always be compared to it whether fairly or unfairly.
Why do I keep posting here? This is pathetic. The movie sucked and I hated it. I'm not going to change anyone's mind. I'm wasting my time.
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Sorry, but the burden of proof is on you. You're the one that made the claim (guarantee really) that no one thought Luke failed by rushing off to confront Vader before his jedi training was complete. I asked how you can be sure.
nickytea
Master Member
I need to make sure I'm understanding you correctly -- are you conflating observations of Luke's failure as a character with claims that the OT is flawed?
Great stories contain heroes that fail spectacularly. An observation of character failure (often linked to cautionary tales / mythological parables) is not a comment on the relative quality of the work itself. I'd go so far as to argue that any interpretation of Luke's failure in Empire is an implicit argument for the superior quality of the movie.
I'm not saying Luke is without flaw. If he didn't he wouldn't be relatable. I'm arguing that him ending his training to try and save his friends is not necessarily a failure given that the end result is that Luke learned about his true lineage, which ultimately led to Vader's redemption.
I was also trying to make the point that defenders of TLJ tend to try and tear down the OT to excuse Rian Johnson's terrible writing choices.
I was also trying to make the point that defenders of TLJ tend to try and tear down the OT to excuse Rian Johnson's terrible writing choices.
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Fine. I'm challenging that statement. I'm asking you to prove it.
I can't because there are no reviews that I was able to find that say that Luke was a failure by leaving Dagobah early that dates back in the 1980's. Which proves my point.
I never said that people didn't like ESB. I never claimed that critics and fans weren't critical of the original trilogy.
I never said that people didn't like ESB. I never claimed that critics and fans weren't critical of the original trilogy.
Either you can back up that statement or you can't. The fact is, you can't. Because Luke did mess up by not listening to Yoda and Obi Wan. You're willing to excuse his screw up because it all worked out. However things didn't turn out ok in the end because he ran off to save his friends. They turned out ok in spite of his failure. To say Luke failed in one aspect of his quest isn't to say the entire thing was a failure. I don't know why you cant see that both can exist. I've not read any criticism of the OT that doesn't address this failure as part of the Hero's Journey that Luke's story follows.
Joek3rr
Master Member
And here's where I really loose people.
I would describe the Force a coin. One side is the Force controls everything and there isn't any free will. But the other side is everyone has free will, they control their own destinies, and Force doesnt control everything. Complete opposites of each other. Yet both statement are true. It's a seeming paradox.
Joek3rr
Master Member
I'm confused, why would a review have to say that? When the movie says it like 10 times.
I know TLJ says it, and Rian Johnson says it, and you say it. I'm saying that I don't believe that very many people (if any) thought of Luke and the Jedi order as utter failures up until TLJ came out. Plus you saying this, to my mind, shows that you are unwilling to accept that there are other ideas that could have been possibilities for the story rather than what Rian presented to us, which is a point I have been arguing all day.
I get that you love this movie and honestly I cannot for the life of me fathom why, but your blind acceptance of it frustrates me to no end. While on the one hand I am happy that you find so much joy in it, I simply wanted you to acknowledge that perhaps, just maybe, that fans like me who disagree with what is presented to me have a valid reason for being so frustrated. That there are other ways to think about these things without having to accept them at face value.
The same way that Rian Johnson, J. J. Abrams, Kathleen Kennedy, and many others in Lucasfilm have ignored a large portion of the fandom, you too have ignored the fact that I, a fellow fan, simply does not like what I am told I should. I get angry when I am told to like something that I clearly don't and it doesn't help matters when I am repeatedly quoted the same arguments to try and convince me that with enough viewings I will change my mind. I won't. You keep arguing the point over and over and asking me to consider (verbatim I might add) the plot and direction of this new story. I gave the movie a chance. I didn't like it. No matter how many times I am told that I will if I watch it just one more time, I won't.
Believe me, I'm not saying there is malice in your intent and I sincerely don't have any in my reply to you. It's just frustrating to no end when you aren't acknowledged. I know that this is a forum where we are arguing about the validity of a fictional story. I know how absurd it all truly is in the scope of life. But to many of us, Star Wars was an escape from the mundane reality of our daily life where most of us, myself included, feels like for all of the times where we felt invisible, we each had a voice where we were heard.
Believe me, I'm not arrogant enough to think that ANYTHING I think or feel matters to Lucasfilm or that my feelings on their choices will ever affect that. As infuriating as that is, because I am a paying customer, ultimately I can't change it but it doesn't negate my frustration when they seem to want to cater to everyone else by trying to please everyone BUT the old school fans. I just thought my fellow fans would understand how important it is to feel heard. That's all. If you can't understand that, then I don't know if there is anything left to say.
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Jaitea
Master Member
Joek3rr
Master Member
Blind acceptance is not something I have. Trust me I've sat down and thought to myself, "perhaps I'm the one that wrong?" This is what prompted me to watch all 8 films together. I try to think of all the options. To look at from your guys point of views. And I decided that TLJ works for me.
So I'm writing up my thoughts, so you guys can see how I arrived at some of my ideas.
Joek3rr
Master Member
So months ago I created a list for myself to see if I was being stupid and whether or not Luke in TLJ works. Here it goes!
To understand Luke in TLJ, I decided to start with what TFA tells us about him.
1) Luke has disappeared! Literally the first sentence in the title crawl. Very obvious and self explanatory.
(the wording suggests that his disappearance is recent, and factoring in Luke's and Ben's appearances in TLJ, 1 to 3 years I'd guess)
2) Luke was training a new generation of Jedi.
3) A student, Ben Solo, turned on him destroying everything he had worked towards.
4) He felt responsible, and walked away from it all.
5) No one knows where exactly Luke went, which means he didn't tell anyone. This tells us that he's very serious about his exile. And doesn't want to be found. And that his exile is very different from Obi-Wan's or Yoda's.( Bail Organa knew where both Jedi masters were)
Now that's out of the way, I could figure out how Luke should be. I did this by asking three questions.
1) why has Luke gone to that island?
2) why has stayed?
3) will he come back, and when?
So the first question. Why has Luke abandoned his friends and loved ones, when they need him the most? AND not tell anyone where he's gone!? This is Luke Skywalker we are talking about. He will recklessly charge in head first to save his friends. What could possibly change that? For me there's only one answer.
Something very very terrible happened. I mean it has to be bad. And that's what we get. Luke students are murdered, his temple burnt to the ground, some of his students have fallen to the Dark Side. And the cherry on top, his nephew is the one that did it all. And he, Luke Skywalker, Jedi Kinight, was catalyst, the guy who knocked down the first domino. He accelerated Ben's fall. And in my mind that is sufficient enough for Luke to leave for this island like we see.
Next question, why has he stayed for 1 to 3 years on this island? Again, when his friends and loved ones need him most, and he didn't tell anyone. Here's a some of options.
A) He's gone there to find some new knowledge.
B) He's being tempted by the Dark Side so much, that if he were to return to the fight he would fall. (this one isn't my idea, somebody on the RPF gave it to me! Thanks!)
C) Something is physically and/or spiritually holding him there.(also not my idea, thanks again RPF person who I can't remember, sorry!)
D) Is having a bit of Jedi walkabout, perhaps tied in with option (A)
E) He truly believes he's helping the galaxy by not being involved. He believes he's helping his friends and loved ones more by staying out of the fight. This comes with the idea that Jedi Order aren't doing a stellar job.
Next I broke down those questions. Separating what I thought worked and what didn't.
A) So I actually think this might have been apart of his motivation originally. But to have this be his only motivation, makes Luke seem very selfish. Just think about Luke saying "I need to find out what went wrong. So I'm leaving and not telling anyone. Not even my sister and I'm not going to leave a message with R2, that way I can study without people bothering me for 3 years." Yeah that doesn't work out for me. If he had told someone what he was up to. Like a simple message sent by R2 like "Leia, I've failed you, I've failed Han, I've failed Ben I'm sorry. I'm leaving now to see if I can find out what went wrong." If there was message like that, then this would work for me. But we don't get anything like this.
B) I really really like this one. But considering how people think he shouldn't be tempted by the Dark Side ever again.......this wouldn't work for a lot people.
C) I also like this idea. But again why didn't he tell anyone? And why is he being trapped at an old Jedi temple? If he'd gone to a Sith temple or something, this option would work.
D) Like option (A) this makes Luke seem incredibly selfish. Just imagine him saying "I needed some ME time, to clear my head......." Heck no! Maybe something like this could have worked, but we still would have needed some sort of communication from Luke.
E) This option is of course the one we got in the film. I feel it's the best, because it gives Luke a very good reason to stay. If he believes he's doing more good out of the fight, then in the fight. It makes his exile seem less self serving, and more selfless.
Third question. Will Luke return and when?
Only really three options here.
1) Comes back to rejoin the fight immediately.
2) Resists at first, but eventually comes back.
3) Never returns, stays on that island.
And the break down.
1) This result only works for option (C) seeing as how he'd probably be super ready to return after being freed. And it kinda has to be used for options (A) and (D). Because there isn't a good reason for him to stay. But at the same time it induces a little problem. That problem being, it makes Luke into a diva like, very fickle person. The idea that Luke would disappear for a couple of years without telling anyone to have some "me" time. And then when Rey shows up, to have him go "Okay so I ran off without telling anyone, for a couple of years. Han got killed by his son. But that's the past, let's not dwell on that. I've had my 'me' time, so let's go save the galaxy!" Nope, doesn't work for me. And for this reason this definitely can't be used for option (B) or (E)
2) This option is what we have in the movie. Its the safest way to do things. Without making Luke shallower then a kiddie wading pool.
3) For obvious reasons this one would have never worked. Though a combination of (2) and (3) is what I would have liked. I would have Luke to remain exiled and removed. And he wouldn't comeback until the ep9. This would have really made people angry, but the payoff in the next film would have been worth it!
To understand Luke in TLJ, I decided to start with what TFA tells us about him.
1) Luke has disappeared! Literally the first sentence in the title crawl. Very obvious and self explanatory.
(the wording suggests that his disappearance is recent, and factoring in Luke's and Ben's appearances in TLJ, 1 to 3 years I'd guess)2) Luke was training a new generation of Jedi.
3) A student, Ben Solo, turned on him destroying everything he had worked towards.
4) He felt responsible, and walked away from it all.
5) No one knows where exactly Luke went, which means he didn't tell anyone. This tells us that he's very serious about his exile. And doesn't want to be found. And that his exile is very different from Obi-Wan's or Yoda's.( Bail Organa knew where both Jedi masters were)
Now that's out of the way, I could figure out how Luke should be. I did this by asking three questions.
1) why has Luke gone to that island?
2) why has stayed?
3) will he come back, and when?
So the first question. Why has Luke abandoned his friends and loved ones, when they need him the most? AND not tell anyone where he's gone!? This is Luke Skywalker we are talking about. He will recklessly charge in head first to save his friends. What could possibly change that? For me there's only one answer.
Something very very terrible happened. I mean it has to be bad. And that's what we get. Luke students are murdered, his temple burnt to the ground, some of his students have fallen to the Dark Side. And the cherry on top, his nephew is the one that did it all. And he, Luke Skywalker, Jedi Kinight, was catalyst, the guy who knocked down the first domino. He accelerated Ben's fall. And in my mind that is sufficient enough for Luke to leave for this island like we see.
Next question, why has he stayed for 1 to 3 years on this island? Again, when his friends and loved ones need him most, and he didn't tell anyone. Here's a some of options.
A) He's gone there to find some new knowledge.
B) He's being tempted by the Dark Side so much, that if he were to return to the fight he would fall. (this one isn't my idea, somebody on the RPF gave it to me! Thanks!)
C) Something is physically and/or spiritually holding him there.(also not my idea, thanks again RPF person who I can't remember, sorry!)
D) Is having a bit of Jedi walkabout, perhaps tied in with option (A)
E) He truly believes he's helping the galaxy by not being involved. He believes he's helping his friends and loved ones more by staying out of the fight. This comes with the idea that Jedi Order aren't doing a stellar job.
Next I broke down those questions. Separating what I thought worked and what didn't.
A) So I actually think this might have been apart of his motivation originally. But to have this be his only motivation, makes Luke seem very selfish. Just think about Luke saying "I need to find out what went wrong. So I'm leaving and not telling anyone. Not even my sister and I'm not going to leave a message with R2, that way I can study without people bothering me for 3 years." Yeah that doesn't work out for me. If he had told someone what he was up to. Like a simple message sent by R2 like "Leia, I've failed you, I've failed Han, I've failed Ben I'm sorry. I'm leaving now to see if I can find out what went wrong." If there was message like that, then this would work for me. But we don't get anything like this.
B) I really really like this one. But considering how people think he shouldn't be tempted by the Dark Side ever again.......this wouldn't work for a lot people.
C) I also like this idea. But again why didn't he tell anyone? And why is he being trapped at an old Jedi temple? If he'd gone to a Sith temple or something, this option would work.
D) Like option (A) this makes Luke seem incredibly selfish. Just imagine him saying "I needed some ME time, to clear my head......." Heck no! Maybe something like this could have worked, but we still would have needed some sort of communication from Luke.
E) This option is of course the one we got in the film. I feel it's the best, because it gives Luke a very good reason to stay. If he believes he's doing more good out of the fight, then in the fight. It makes his exile seem less self serving, and more selfless.
Third question. Will Luke return and when?
Only really three options here.
1) Comes back to rejoin the fight immediately.
2) Resists at first, but eventually comes back.
3) Never returns, stays on that island.
And the break down.
1) This result only works for option (C) seeing as how he'd probably be super ready to return after being freed. And it kinda has to be used for options (A) and (D). Because there isn't a good reason for him to stay. But at the same time it induces a little problem. That problem being, it makes Luke into a diva like, very fickle person. The idea that Luke would disappear for a couple of years without telling anyone to have some "me" time. And then when Rey shows up, to have him go "Okay so I ran off without telling anyone, for a couple of years. Han got killed by his son. But that's the past, let's not dwell on that. I've had my 'me' time, so let's go save the galaxy!" Nope, doesn't work for me. And for this reason this definitely can't be used for option (B) or (E)
2) This option is what we have in the movie. Its the safest way to do things. Without making Luke shallower then a kiddie wading pool.
3) For obvious reasons this one would have never worked. Though a combination of (2) and (3) is what I would have liked. I would have Luke to remain exiled and removed. And he wouldn't comeback until the ep9. This would have really made people angry, but the payoff in the next film would have been worth it!
Snikt
Sr Member
Dont bother with @JoeG or @Joek3rr youll just end up pissing yourself off and not come back to the forum for a couple days because you wonder how someone could be so insufferable. Or anyone else that loves TLJ and defends Rian Johnson no matter what. Its ridiculous. I cant say this enough regarding this topic, but dont feed the trolls. Seriously.
Edit: By the way, this thread has now devolved into an e-dumpster fire. Can we get this thread locked so nobody is ever compelled to come back here and read this ever again? The feeding of this @Joek3rr guy is baffling. I cringe when I read some of these posts.
joshvanrad
Master Member
I just came back to this thread after a long hiatus. I just read the last 100 posts in painstaking detail. If I've learned anything valuable it is that I can just scroll past posts by JoeK3rr from now on.
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