Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

[Psab keel]

It's pretty much THIS:
<br>

:lol

To be honest it's just absurd at this point.

 

[Joek3rr]

Having Rey and Kylo end up falling in love is contrived and comes across like tween fan fiction.

I used think the exact same thing. In fact i hated the "Reylo" theories. But recently I’ve been beginning to see things differently. And I'm sold on Rey and Ben coming together. If you haven't, go back to the last page and watch the video I shared. It's very very interesting. Even if you disagree, maybe it will be some food for thought.

 

[MrSouthpaw]

An employer that send his goons to beat you up when things don't go his way. That isn't a nice person. Not a person that one of our heroes would leave their child with.

Sorry, let me clarify myself. When you said the speeches were funny, I thought you meant what they were speaking. As in the words they are saying. So that was my bad. What I'm trying to say (and doing a lousy job) is that it's was delivery, how they spoke that I consider humorous. And I find the way Hux delivers he's speeches, how he presents himself, to be right in line. I love it in TFA when he's literally shaking has he screams.

I find it interesting that some think that was supposed to be a comedic moment. I sure didn't. I thought it was very serious.

And how am I reaching? Both men are touching objects which connects them physically and spiritually to their past as Jedi. A past which they tried to forget. A past where they royally messed up. In Kyle's case because he fell to the Dark Side and just about killed his student Mara Jade. In Luke's case his multiple failures has brought him. One of them being he came very close to killing his student, Ben Solo.

The difference between the two tosses is. Kyle's is a knee junk response. While Luke's comes after an internal argument.

And there are more differences. As I said before, Kyle has simply turned his back on everything, because of his failures. While Luke is done the same thing, at the same he believes he doing good, that he's helping. He sees that Jedi keep mucking things up. And perhaps the Jedi are as much a part of the problem as the Sith were. And to fully end this continual distructful conflict. The Jedi need to go the same way as the Sith.

And yet, according to the vision that is exactly what happened. Rey was left with Plutt. For all we know, this is the first time he ever did anything like this. Again, it's too bad RJ decided that being cheap and not expanding on Rey's past was the path to take.

So you thought I was talking about the way they spoke, and you just confirmed that you also thought it was the way they spoke that is humorous. Where is your confusion coming from? Hux is "shaking" because the Starkiller base is complete and he is reveling in it's power.

I don't know what you are referring to concerning what you thought was a serious moment.

You are reaching because you are trying to cite Katarn's action, a character that has nothing to do with this movie. The saber toss was an inappropriate attempt at comedy.

That said, you can take the same questions and apply to them to the OT:

Who's The Emperor?
Who's (sic) Luke's parents? (In ANH we get quick comments that he was pilot, then a Jedi... then in ESB we learn Vader is his father. Still not a mention of Mom).
Who dropped Luke off on Tattooine?
Where did the graflex come from?! (I'll admit the question becomes even more complex in the ST, and it's a part of the story I'm not really happy with...).

SW has always been full of stories and characters without real backstories or reasons why. Not everything can be covered in a 2-hour movie. We can add stuff like "why did Vader's lightsaber change between ESB and RotJ? why didn't they talk about Luke's Mom? How did Luke learn to use a lightsaber (we never see Yoda and him using them)? Who are all the guys on the Death Star in the meeting with Tarkin and Vader? Who are all the guys on Death Star II with Palpatine and Vader?

The Emperor is the person that dissolved the imperial senate and took total control. Who is Snoke and how did he get total control of the First Order? Also, since the PT was actually made prior to this movie. The Emperor has no backstory becomes a far weaker argument, in total, and can only be applied by qualifying a statement as "in the OT". Factually, we know how he came to power. And since the PT did indeed happen between the OT and ST, the ST has far less excuse for not expanding on Snoke more.

Luke's father was Anakin, a gifted pilot, who later became Darth Vader. Leia mentions some vague recollections of her and Luke's mother. This is far more than we know about Rey's parents and especially in relation to the vision she had when touching the Graflex.

OWK dropped Luke off on Tatooine. Another argument that can really only be made when ignoring the PT that happened before these movies came out. And, again, there is Rey's vision that needs explaining.

Yes, indeed. How does Maz get the Graflex?

Luke got an adequate backstory from us seeing him on the farm, to OWK's recollections, to Vader's "I am your father" scene. We aren't just talking about any random character, we are wondering why Rey, the protagonist, has little to no backstory. We factually know more about Kylo Ren's backstory, which is fairly weird. Vader's saber is ultimately unimportant. Leia briefly talks about their mother. Luke began to learn how to use a Lightsaber and the Force on the Falcon, blast-helmet scene. The rest is mostly inferred from the time between ANH and ESB. What "guys" in both movies? Can you be specific?

 

[Greenie]

The Jedi's legacy is failure. For being guardians of peace and justice, they sure muck that up a lot.

You poor fool. You don't know what you're on about, just spouting crap from the pen of Rian Johnson.
Luke was wrong, RJ was wrong and you are wrong.

How is their legacy failure and how have they mucked up a lot? The whole story only spans sixty years and the Jedi were guardians of peace and justice for OVER A THOUSAND GENERATIONS.

 

[Psab keel]

Again, just because Johnson chose to push the story in those directions doesn't mean that there weren't other (and in my opinion better) ways to continue the Skywalker Saga. Up until perhaps the prequels and especially now with TLJ NO ONE thought of the Jedi as being utter failures. To my mind having the writers make them out to be that undermines the characters of Luke and Obi-Wan. Making mistakes is understandable but they way Luke talks about Obi-Wan in 8, it's just deplorable. Think about having Mark Hamill saying those words to Sir Alec Guinness's face. It's like all of the positivity and hope that permeated the OT is thrown out the window. Then after openly mocking what made Star Wars special Johnson still expects the audience to go along with it by using the very same tropes he destroyed.

 

[Joek3rr]

You poor fool. You don't know what you're on about, just spouting crap from the pen of Rian Johnson.
Luke was wrong, RJ was wrong and you are wrong.

How is their legacy failure and how have they mucked up a lot? The whole story only spans sixty years and the Jedi were guardians of peace and justice for OVER A THOUSAND GENERATIONS.

Well, let's look at the Jedi's legacy. For this, we will need to hop over to Legends since the new Canon doesn't go back that far yet. But I think that's okay since it looks like some of this stuff is on it's way to being re-canonized in some form.

So if the Jedi legacy isn't a failure, then we should very few a fallen Jedi, to none. But what we see is very different. There are countless fallen Jedi, many of whom became Sith Lords. It was exiled fallen Jedi who began the Sith order, the Jedi's arch nemesis.

Here's some notable Jedi who became Sith

Ajunta Pall, and his 11 exiles, they became the first Lords of the Sith
Exar Kun
Ulic Qel-Droma
Haazen
Darth Revan
Darth Malak
Darth Bandon
Darth Traya - Kreia
Darth Desolous
Darth Ruin - a former Jedi Master
Skere Kaan
Darovit
Darth Zannah
Darth Tyranus - Count Dooku - a former Jedi Master
Darth Vader - Anakin Skywalker the last fallen Jedi to become a Sith

And there is even more fallen Jedi that didn't become Sith. Most notably all the Jedi that turned during The Jedi Civil War. And then there's Pong Krell and Ben Solo and the handful of Luke's students that went with Ben. Finally, there is Barriss Offee and Ahsoka Tano. These two didn't turn to the Dark Side, but Barriss bombed the Jedi Temple, and Ahsoka left after being put on trial for the bombing.


Then we need to look at how many wars and conflicts there have been. If the Jedi are truly guardians of peace and justice.

Force Wars - first recorded war between followers of the Light side and the Dark side
First Great Schism
Tionese War
Pius Dea Crusades
Second Great Schism
Hundred-Year Darkness
Great Hyperspace War - first war between the Jedi and Sith orders
Great Sith War
Beast Wars
Third Great Schism
Krath Holy Crusade
Freedon Nadd Uprising
Mandalorian Wars
The Jedi Civil War
Dark Wars
First Jedi Purge
Onderon Civil War
Great Galactic War - This one ended with the sacking of Coruscant
Cold War
Galactic War
New Sith Wars
The Clone Wars
Great Jedi Purge
First Order-Resistance War

So the Jedi are supposed to be guardians of peace and justice. But their legacy is war after war, conflict after conflict, fallen Jedi after fallen Jedi. They aren't doing something right. It always got me, that Master Mace Windu tells the Chancellor that "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers" Yet the next time we see the Jedi, they are generals now fighting in a war.

 

[JD]

The Emperor is the person that dissolved the imperial senate and took total control. Who is Snoke and how did he get total control of the First Order? Also, since the PT was actually made prior to this movie. The Emperor has no backstory becomes a far weaker argument, in total, and can only be applied by qualifying a statement as "in the OT". Factually, we know how he came to power. And since the PT did indeed happen between the OT and ST, the ST has far less excuse for not expanding on Snoke more.

Luke's father was Anakin, a gifted pilot, who later became Darth Vader. Leia mentions some vague recollections of her and Luke's mother. This is far more than we know about Rey's parents and especially in relation to the vision she had when touching the Graflex.

OWK dropped Luke off on Tatooine. Another argument that can really only be made when ignoring the PT that happened before these movies came out. And, again, there is Rey's vision that needs explaining.

Yes, indeed. How does Maz get the Graflex?

The Emperor's story vs. Snoke's... well, the complaints we don't know anything about Snoke's background seem to come from the idea that many fans wanted Snoke to be Darth Plagueis or Darth This or Darth That. When that didn't happen, it became a nonsensical point in a checklist of things to dislike about TLJ. While we now know how Palpatine came to power, we still know very little about his origin.

There's also the idea that Palpatine's rise to Emperor is an important part of the story of Anakin's fall. We still have zero backstory on how he became a Sith, where Maul came from or little info... other than bits that came from the EU.

We know that Snoke "seduced (Ben Solo) to the dark side" and he leads (led) the Resistance that's what is important to this story. Similarly in the OT, we know nill about Palpatine and his cronies. Just as Palpatine's story or how the Empire came to power wasn't important to the OT, Snoke's story isn't important to ST --- at least not yet.

Luke got an adequate backstory from us seeing him on the farm, to OWK's recollections, to Vader's "I am your father" scene. We aren't just talking about any random character, we are wondering why Rey, the protagonist, has little to no backstory. We factually know more about Kylo Ren's backstory, which is fairly weird. Vader's saber is ultimately unimportant. Leia briefly talks about their mother. Luke began to learn how to use a Lightsaber and the Force on the Falcon, blast-helmet scene. The rest is mostly inferred from the time between ANH and ESB. What "guys" in both movies? Can you be specific?[/QUOTE]
First off, thank you for civil discussion... I found it's often lacking here.

Of course, one must ignore the PT when discussing the OT in this context. We are only two movies into this sequel trilogy and most of us are already rushing to judgement on certain things. In 1986, after ROTJ we didn't know what we were going to get next.... and we still have one more movie in this sequel trilogy.

Rey's backstory is something that fans have been clamoring for. There's an expectation and a want for her to be more. I didn't see much in TFA that really suggests she's more than what she is revealed to be in TLJ. I stand by that got just about as much about her as we did Luke - which is what was needed to move the story along. We see Luke and Rey piloting speeders, we get them messing around toys/souvenirs and an off hand comment. We know Luke's a farmer and Rey's a scavenger... both probably have lots of free time (in the off season) and can learn to pilot or even learn to speak Wookiee (which even I admit could've used just a hair more to justify).

With Luke we are presented some mystery about his father - his belief that his father was a navigator vs. Ben's revelation that he was a Jedi killed by Vader. It could have ended there, but... obviously it didn't. But, in ANH that's all we got and we probably weren't going to get much else.

I can see how some fans thought her parentage was meant to mislead us and that she was a 'somebody.' We saw Rey's parents dump her on Jakuu in TFA and she was left with Unkar Plutt. Maz suggested she move on from them and focus on what's ahead. In TLJ, we get that they were "filthy drunk junkers" and that's certainly adequate. Some can't accept that there isn't more. (If JJ opts to change this, there will be a sense of fulfilling fanboy wishes more than anything... to me, at least).

I'm still not sure if we would have gotten more about Rey's parentage in TLJ had there not been so much fan speculation after TFA. I also think what we saw in TLJ was just to say "nothing to see here, move along..." and to end all that. Unfortunately, that may have opened more of a can of worms than it ended.


Part of me feels that some of us want everything spelled out for them. Movies are only two hours, we can't fill in every detail. It seems, to me at least, that some of us want or need every minute detail when it's not pertinent to the story being told here. They forget that the OT didn't really offer us anything more and we've had 40 years to fill in the gaps now. While we can agree or disagree about all that, I do wonder how the internet and forum like this would have reacted to the OT... but, that's not possible because without the OT, it's likely we wouldn't be here discussing this anyway.

It's also okay to not like a movie just as it's okay to like one. I feel fortunate that I've mostly enjoyed every Star Wars film and that I've seen them all in their original run and understand it's very much a personal experience for all of us... and we react differently to these stories. But, at the end of the day - Star Wars isn't our property, it's up to these new creators to craft the stories we're going to get. The personal attacks - be it against one another or the filmmakers isn't necessary.

...and yeah, the Graflex saber. I hated the idea of bringing it back ever since the rumor that TFA would open with it floating through space. After JJ's attempt to make it a holy relic of some sort, I was (sorta) thrilled with Luke's tossing it as he did. Don't get me wrong, that thing is my holy grail... I just don't think it needed to be in this series the way it is.

 

[Joek3rr]

And yet, according to the vision that is exactly what happened. Rey was left with Plutt. For all we know, this is the first time he ever did anything like this. Again, it's too bad RJ decided that being cheap and not expanding on Rey's past was the path to take.

So you thought I was talking about the way they spoke, and you just confirmed that you also thought it was the way they spoke that is humorous. Where is your confusion coming from? Hux is "shaking" because the Starkiller base is complete and he is reveling in it's power.

I don't know what you are referring to concerning what you thought was a serious moment.

You are reaching because you are trying to cite Katarn's action, a character that has nothing to do with this movie. The saber toss was an inappropriate attempt at comedy.

Our heroes would have never in a thousand years left their child with Plutt. They would have found someone else to take care of their child. The fact that she was left with Plutt suggests some pretty deplorable parents.

The way Hux speaks just like the way Hitler and Mussolini spoke. Over the top, almost comical at times

go to 1:00, look at his posturing, as juts his lips out, it's ridiculous

And the saber toss was not an attempt at comedy

I posted up a few posts what Rian had to say about that scene. Nothing in there about him trying to make it funny

“It wasn’t coming into it and thinking, ‘Okay, they’re expecting this. Let’s have him toss the lightsaber. Ha, ha, ha.’ The reason he did that was because I can’t imagine any other honest reaction from him to that moment.”

“So, if you think about where Luke is at the beginning of this movie—and by the way, the cracking for me where Luke is at in this movie was the first big thing I had to do coming into it, where his head was at here, and there were fewer options than you would imagine. The thing we know about him from The Force Awakens, the big thing, is he’s taken himself out of the fight. His friends are fighting the good fight, he’s exiled off to an island alone. Knowing that Luke is a hero, knowing Luke from growing up, I know he must think he’s doing the right thing by taking himself out of the equation. And because he’s the last Jedi, by taking the Jedi out of the equation, by saying, ‘I’m taking the Jedi out of this fight,’ he must think that’s the best thing for the galaxy.”

“So, that leads you down a really specific path in terms of where his head is at. And if he’s done that and if he’s made this huge Herculean effort to pull himself out of the fight, to hide in, like he says, ‘The most unfindable place in the galaxy,’ it took an entire movie for the most heroic, smartest people in the galaxy to even find him, he’s put himself away. Then some kid shows up that he doesn’t know and shoves this thing that is everything that he has made this huge effort to step away from into his face with this look in her eyes of expectation like, ‘Here you go,’ and what is he going to do? Take it and say, ‘Great. Let’s go save the galaxy.’ He’s made this choice. He’s there for a reason. I knew it was going to be shocking, but I did it because it felt like, obviously it’s a dramatic expression of it, but it’s an expression of honestly the way that he is going to react to that moment.”

 

[laszlo]

Again, just because Johnson chose to push the story in those directions doesn't mean that there weren't other (and in my opinion better) ways to continue the Skywalker Saga. Up until perhaps the prequels and especially now with TLJ NO ONE thought of the Jedi as being utter failures. To my mind having the writers make them out to be that undermines the characters of Luke and Obi-Wan. Making mistakes is understandable but they way Luke talks about Obi-Wan in 8, it's just deplorable. Think about having Mark Hamill saying those words to Sir Alec Guinness's face. It's like all of the positivity and hope that permeated the OT is thrown out the window. Then after openly mocking what made Star Wars special Johnson still expects the audience to go along with it by using the very same tropes he destroyed.

This is sooooo on the money. Thank you.

 

[Greenie]

Well, let's look at the Jedi's legacy. For this, we will need to hop over to Legends since the new Canon doesn't go back that far yet. But I think that's okay since it looks like some of this stuff is on it's way to being re-canonized in some form.

So if the Jedi legacy isn't a failure, then we should very few a fallen Jedi, to none. But what we see is very different. There are countless fallen Jedi, many of whom became Sith Lords. It was exiled fallen Jedi who began the Sith order, the Jedi's arch nemesis.

Here's some notable Jedi who became Sith

Ajunta Pall, and his 11 exiles, they became the first Lords of the Sith
Exar Kun
Ulic Qel-Droma
Haazen
Darth Revan
Darth Malak
Darth Bandon
Darth Traya - Kreia
Darth Desolous
Darth Ruin - a former Jedi Master
Skere Kaan
Darovit
Darth Zannah
Darth Tyranus - Count Dooku - a former Jedi Master
Darth Vader - Anakin Skywalker the last fallen Jedi to become a Sith

And there is even more fallen Jedi that didn't become Sith. Most notably all the Jedi that turned during The Jedi Civil War. And then there's Pong Krell and Ben Solo and the handful of Luke's students that went with Ben. Finally, there is Barriss Offee and Ahsoka Tano. These two didn't turn to the Dark Side, but Barriss bombed the Jedi Temple, and Ahsoka left after being put on trial for the bombing.


Then we need to look at how many wars and conflicts there have been. If the Jedi are truly guardians of peace and justice.

Force Wars - first recorded war between followers of the Light side and the Dark side
First Great Schism
Tionese War
Pius Dea Crusades
Second Great Schism
Hundred-Year Darkness
Great Hyperspace War - first war between the Jedi and Sith orders
Great Sith War
Beast Wars
Third Great Schism
Krath Holy Crusade
Freedon Nadd Uprising
Mandalorian Wars
The Jedi Civil War
Dark Wars
First Jedi Purge
Onderon Civil War
Great Galactic War - This one ended with the sacking of Coruscant
Cold War
Galactic War
New Sith Wars
The Clone Wars
Great Jedi Purge
First Order-Resistance War

So the Jedi are supposed to be guardians of peace and justice. But their legacy is war after war, conflict after conflict, fallen Jedi after fallen Jedi. They aren't doing something right. It always got me, that Master Mace Windu tells the Chancellor that "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers" Yet the next time we see the Jedi, they are generals now fighting in a war.

Yeah. :facepalm
Cherry picking from licensed fan fiction is a flawed argument. It does not exist as canon within the time span of the entire saga. Where as "for over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic" is a direct quote from A New Hope, which is canon.
If you think Legends counts as part of the story, how come Chewie ain't dead? Where's Mara Jade? Where is Ben/Jacen Solo's twin sister or younger brother. Why isn't Corran Horn the best pilot in the resistance? Oh, and the lightsaber was retrieved by Jorus C'Baoth for the purpose of cloning Luke from his severed hand............I could go on indefinitely.
And in all of that, Luke Skywalker was a Jedi Master that did not run away. From anything!
The story was never meant to be expanded beyond the rise and fall of Darth Vader.
As for the wars, the clue is in the title mate.

BTW. Your attachment in Post #5648 is really jumping the shark.

 

[Joek3rr]

Yeah. :facepalm
Cherry picking from licensed fan fiction is a flawed argument. It does not exist as canon within the time span of the entire saga. Where as "for over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic" is a direct quote from A New Hope, which is canon.
If you think Legends counts as part of the story, how come Chewie ain't dead? Where's Mara Jade? Where is Ben/Jacen Solo's twin sister or younger brother. Why isn't Corran Horn the best pilot in the resistance? Oh, and the lightsaber was retrieved by Jorus C'Baoth for the purpose of cloning Luke from his severed hand............I could go on indefinitely.
And in all of that, Luke Skywalker was a Jedi Master that did not run away. From anything!
The story was never meant to be expanded beyond the rise and fall of Darth Vader.
As for the wars, the clue is in the title mate.

I see I'm going to have to repeat myself

For this, we will need to hop over to Legends since the new Canon doesn't go back that far yet. But I think that's okay since it looks like some of this stuff is on it's way to being re-canonized in some form.

I'm not an idiot. I know that Legends isn't canon. I know it's just licensed fan fiction. But for a time, Legends was the canon. But in the absence of anything else. And some of it is coming back. Exar Kun has been mentioned. Wars with the Mandalorians have been mentioned. Jedi Crusaders are canon again.

 

[sztriki]

The Jedi's legacy is failure. For being guardians of peace and justice, they sure muck that up a lot.

The entire fooking damn sodding mess of a movie is built on, hinges and turns on Luke's ideas being wrong. All of it. Everything else, Canto Bight, codebreaker, slowspacechase, Admiral Holdo, Poe's "character arc", everything, literally everything is fat, filler and extra runtime. Luke is wrong in thinking the Jedi are failure and need to disappear. That is the final conclusion of the movie, that is why in the end Luke Skywalker, legendary Jedi Knight returns to triumphant form via Force-phone call to save what's left of the Resistance, why he returns hope to the galaxy by inspiring cleaning slave boys and why says to Kylo Ren that he WILL not be the last jedi, why Yoda turns him around and why Rey has the old Jedi books to continue carrying the torch.
This is why it's basically beyond me why people, filmmakers and whoever else started to lineup and analyse Luke and say "oh, hmmm yea, very complex, mmm, interesting and unique mindset", whereas from the first 5 minutes EVERYONE knows that Luke is in the wrong. Everyone from the audience, even damn Rey who a day before thought that Luke is a myth. This is why the movie is so frustrating because it's so painfully obvious that the motivations and reasons behind this obsession are erroneous. Add to that that there's no course or real turning point for him to change his mind other than Yoda giving him a 45 seconds pep talk.
So it's either Luke is in the wrong and tries to justify his own personal screwup with this fancy talk and ideas or if he's right then the movie's climax and conclusion is totally schizophrenic.

 

[Joek3rr]

Yeah. :facepalm
Cherry picking from licensed fan fiction is a flawed argument. It does not exist as canon within the time span of the entire saga. Where as "for over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old republic" is a direct quote from A New Hope, which is canon.
If you think Legends counts as part of the story, how come Chewie ain't dead? Where's Mara Jade? Where is Ben/Jacen Solo's twin sister or younger brother. Why isn't Corran Horn the best pilot in the resistance? Oh, and the lightsaber was retrieved by Jorus C'Baoth for the purpose of cloning Luke from his severed hand............I could go on indefinitely.
And in all of that, Luke Skywalker was a Jedi Master that did not run away. From anything!
The story was never meant to be expanded beyond the rise and fall of Darth Vader.
As for the wars, the clue is in the title mate.

BTW. Your attachment in Post #5648 is really jumping the shark.

So let's just look at canon.

The let their greatest enemy, the Sith grow in power over a thousand years. Until, right under their very noses, the Sith take control of the Republic. They let themselves become something they weren't. They became soldiers, when they were supposed to be "keepers of the peace, not soldiers". And not only did they let the Sith control them like a puppet. The end up fighting against one of their own. The former Jedi, turned Sith Lord, Dooku. And the cherry on top, the let a Sith Lord slowly corrupt the chosen one......

- - - Updated - - -

The entire fooking damn sodding mess of a movie is built on, hinges and turns on Luke's ideas being wrong. All of it. Everything else, Canto Bight, codebreaker, slowspacechase, Admiral Holdo, Poe's "character arc", everything, literally everything is fat, filler and extra runtime. Luke is wrong in thinking the Jedi are failure and need to disappear. That is the final conclusion of the movie, that is why in the end Luke Skywalker, legendary Jedi Knight returns to triumphant form via Force-phone call to save what's left of the Resistance, why he returns hope to the galaxy by inspiring cleaning slave boys and why says to Kylo Ren that he WILL not be the last jedi, why Yoda turns him around and why Rey has the old Jedi books to continue carrying the torch.
This is why it's basically beyond me why people, filmmakers and whoever else started to lineup and analyse Luke and say "oh, hmmm yea, very complex, mmm, interesting and unique mindset", whereas from the first 5 minutes EVERYONE knows that Luke is in the wrong. Everyone from the audience, even damn Rey who a day before thought that Luke is a myth. This is why the movie is so frustrating because it's so painfully obvious that the motivations and reasons behind this obsession are erroneous. Add to that that there's no course or real turning point for him to change his mind other than Yoda giving him a 45 seconds pep talk.
So it's either Luke is in the wrong and tries to justify his own personal screwup with this fancy talk and ideas or if he's right then the movie's climax and conclusion is totally schizophrenic.

But that's just it, Luke isn't entirely wrong. The Prequels and The Clone Wars alone show us how misguided the a Jedi had become.

 

[Greenie]

I see I'm going to have to repeat myself

For this, we will need to hop over to Legends since the new Canon doesn't go back that far yet. But I think that's okay since it looks like some of this stuff is on it's way to being re-canonized in some form.

I'm not an idiot. I know that Legends isn't canon. I know it's just licensed fan fiction. But for a time, Legends was the canon. But in the absence of anything else. And some of it is coming back. Exar Kun has been mentioned. Wars with the Mandalorians have been mentioned. Jedi Crusaders are canon again.

Yes, I see you like to repeat yourself.
I shall do the same then.
Luke Skywalker in legends was a jedi master that did not run away from anything.
I find it amusing that you reference Legends to explain how TLJ contradicts the previous movies which are actually canon.
Yes legends was canon but that was before Disney, before the dark times.
And let's not forget all this supplemental material is not part of the narrative of TLJ. Assuming it has one.

 

[Greenie]

So let's just look at canon.

The let their greatest enemy, the Sith grow in power over a thousand years. Until, right under their very noses, the Sith take control of the Republic. They let themselves become something they weren't. They became soldiers, when they were supposed to be "keepers of the peace, not soldiers". And not only did they let the Sith control them like a puppet. The end up fighting against one of their own. The former Jedi, turned Sith Lord, Dooku. And the cherry on top, the let a Sith Lord slowly corrupt the chosen one......

- - - Updated - - -



But that's just it, Luke isn't entirely wrong. The Prequels and The Clone Wars alone show us how misguided the a Jedi had become.

FFS Once again SIXTY YEARS out of THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND.

Either, you're a bit special or you are trolling and I'm an idiot for responding. Maybe both!

 

[Joek3rr]

FFS Once again SIXTY YEARS out of THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND.

Either, you're a bit special or you are trolling and I'm an idiot for responding. Maybe both!

Whoa no need to get upset.

You believe that the Jedi order was perfect. But from Jedi-Sith war, the formation of the Old Republic, and the institution of Darth Bane's rule of two. A thousand years before the Clone Wars. The Jedi had been in a steady decline. The more the Sith and the Dark Side grew in power, the more the Jedi waned. It was so bad by the Clone Wars that Mace even says " I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.".

 

[Greenie]

Whoa no need to get upset.

You believe that the Jedi order was perfect. But from Jedi-Sith war, the formation of the Old Republic, and the institution of Darth Bane's rule of two. A thousand years before the Clone Wars. The Jedi had been in a steady decline. The more the Sith and the Dark Side grew in power, the more the Jedi waned. It was so bad by the Clone Wars that Mace even says " I think it is time we informed the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished.".

Upset. Lol.

As much as I love these repetitive history lessons I realise I should have maintained my boycott of this thread. So I'm gonna bail mate. We probably had this conversation a hundred pages back anyway.

 

[mattycsi]

The entire fooking damn sodding mess of a movie is built on, hinges and turns on Luke's ideas being wrong. All of it. Everything else, Canto Bight, codebreaker, slowspacechase, Admiral Holdo, Poe's "character arc", everything, literally everything is fat, filler and extra runtime. Luke is wrong in thinking the Jedi are failure and need to disappear. That is the final conclusion of the movie, that is why in the end Luke Skywalker, legendary Jedi Knight returns to triumphant form via Force-phone call to save what's left of the Resistance, why he returns hope to the galaxy by inspiring cleaning slave boys and why says to Kylo Ren that he WILL not be the last jedi, why Yoda turns him around and why Rey has the old Jedi books to continue carrying the torch.
This is why it's basically beyond me why people, filmmakers and whoever else started to lineup and analyse Luke and say "oh, hmmm yea, very complex, mmm, interesting and unique mindset", whereas from the first 5 minutes EVERYONE knows that Luke is in the wrong. Everyone from the audience, even damn Rey who a day before thought that Luke is a myth. This is why the movie is so frustrating because it's so painfully obvious that the motivations and reasons behind this obsession are erroneous. Add to that that there's no course or real turning point for him to change his mind other than Yoda giving him a 45 seconds pep talk.
So it's either Luke is in the wrong and tries to justify his own personal screwup with this fancy talk and ideas or if he's right then the movie's climax and conclusion is totally schizophrenic.

This is the problem, Joek3rr talks ad nauseam, but he doesn't really get it. A fair few pages back I began to question whether he'd even seen the movies.

And we all know his recall on movies is pee poor.

 

[Joek3rr]

This is the problem, Joek3rr talks ad nauseam, but he doesn't really get it. A fair few pages back I began to question whether he'd even seen the movies.

And we all know his recall on movies is pee poor.

I tend to repeat myself alot. I apologize. But I'm not always good at writing my thoughts out. And some times I think of better ways to say things much later.

And at this point I think I've probably seen the movies more than you

 

[MrSouthpaw]

The Emperor's story vs. Snoke's... well, the complaints we don't know anything about Snoke's background seem to come from the idea that many fans wanted Snoke to be Darth Plagueis or Darth This or Darth That. When that didn't happen, it became a nonsensical point in a checklist of things to dislike about TLJ. While we now know how Palpatine came to power, we still know very little about his origin.

There's also the idea that Palpatine's rise to Emperor is an important part of the story of Anakin's fall. We still have zero backstory on how he became a Sith, where Maul came from or little info... other than bits that came from the EU.

We know that Snoke "seduced (Ben Solo) to the dark side" and he leads (led) the Resistance that's what is important to this story. Similarly in the OT, we know nill about Palpatine and his cronies. Just as Palpatine's story or how the Empire came to power wasn't important to the OT, Snoke's story isn't important to ST --- at least not yet.

First off, thank you for civil discussion... I found it's often lacking here.

Of course, one must ignore the PT when discussing the OT in this context. We are only two movies into this sequel trilogy and most of us are already rushing to judgement on certain things. In 1986, after ROTJ we didn't know what we were going to get next.... and we still have one more movie in this sequel trilogy.

Rey's backstory is something that fans have been clamoring for. There's an expectation and a want for her to be more. I didn't see much in TFA that really suggests she's more than what she is revealed to be in TLJ. I stand by that got just about as much about her as we did Luke - which is what was needed to move the story along. We see Luke and Rey piloting speeders, we get them messing around toys/souvenirs and an off hand comment. We know Luke's a farmer and Rey's a scavenger... both probably have lots of free time (in the off season) and can learn to pilot or even learn to speak Wookiee (which even I admit could've used just a hair more to justify).

With Luke we are presented some mystery about his father - his belief that his father was a navigator vs. Ben's revelation that he was a Jedi killed by Vader. It could have ended there, but... obviously it didn't. But, in ANH that's all we got and we probably weren't going to get much else.

I can see how some fans thought her parentage was meant to mislead us and that she was a 'somebody.' We saw Rey's parents dump her on Jakuu in TFA and she was left with Unkar Plutt. Maz suggested she move on from them and focus on what's ahead. In TLJ, we get that they were "filthy drunk junkers" and that's certainly adequate. Some can't accept that there isn't more. (If JJ opts to change this, there will be a sense of fulfilling fanboy wishes more than anything... to me, at least).

I'm still not sure if we would have gotten more about Rey's parentage in TLJ had there not been so much fan speculation after TFA. I also think what we saw in TLJ was just to say "nothing to see here, move along..." and to end all that. Unfortunately, that may have opened more of a can of worms than it ended.


Part of me feels that some of us want everything spelled out for them. Movies are only two hours, we can't fill in every detail. It seems, to me at least, that some of us want or need every minute detail when it's not pertinent to the story being told here. They forget that the OT didn't really offer us anything more and we've had 40 years to fill in the gaps now. While we can agree or disagree about all that, I do wonder how the internet and forum like this would have reacted to the OT... but, that's not possible because without the OT, it's likely we wouldn't be here discussing this anyway.

It's also okay to not like a movie just as it's okay to like one. I feel fortunate that I've mostly enjoyed every Star Wars film and that I've seen them all in their original run and understand it's very much a personal experience for all of us... and we react differently to these stories. But, at the end of the day - Star Wars isn't our property, it's up to these new creators to craft the stories we're going to get. The personal attacks - be it against one another or the filmmakers isn't necessary.

...and yeah, the Graflex saber. I hated the idea of bringing it back ever since the rumor that TFA would open with it floating through space. After JJ's attempt to make it a holy relic of some sort, I was (sorta) thrilled with Luke's tossing it as he did. Don't get me wrong, that thing is my holy grail... I just don't think it needed to be in this series the way it is.

I can't speak for everyone, but I am not asking for a whole movie trilogy, a single movie, or even a significant amount of time dedicated to Snoke's origin. I would have been perfectly fine with a single paragraph, like Tarkin spoke of the Emperor in ANH. TLJ is the longest SW movie to date, no reason they couldn't have said something.

We didn't need to know about Palpatine's deep past. His part of the story is being the Emperor and in the PT how he got there. That is more than adequate coverage of that character.

Snoke has somehow managed to cultivate an organization that dwarfs the Empire in it's scope, power, and ability. That deserves some explanation.

Many arguments against TLJ are instantly rebutted with "in the OT", while ignoring the PT whole-hog. The fact is that the PT exists and if an argument can only be made by ignoring it, then what is the worth or quality of that argument? The OT had the excuse of being the first, the ST does not.

Rey is the protagonist. Traditional storytelling gives us a reasonable expectation that we should know more about her origins. It's not like mysterious protagonists are the norm and we are being unusually demanding. We knew way more about Luke by the end of ANH and definitely by the end of ESB and Kylo Ren in the ST.

Unlike Luke, we can't even name either of Rey's parents, let alone any more specifics about them. Outside of what Kylo Ren claimed, which is unreliable information at best.

In TLJ, we also heard that her parents were buried in the desert on Jakku. That is troublesome trying to square that with seeing them leave the planet in the vision.

I don't need the whole history from childhood to adult for every character. What I wanted would have been related in relatively short amounts of time, especially in the longest SW movie to date. Canto Bight was certainly a complete waste of time, imo. I know some people liked it, but frankly BB-8 should have been the "hacker" like R2 in the Death Star. And that time used for more valuable purpose.

Why are you bringing up personal attacks while responding to my posts?

Our heroes would have never in a thousand years left their child with Plutt. They would have found someone else to take care of their child. The fact that she was left with Plutt suggests some pretty deplorable parents.

The way Hux speaks just like the way Hitler and Mussolini spoke. Over the top, almost comical at times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfS8AulsYRk
go to 1:00, look at his posturing, as juts his lips out, it's ridiculous

And the saber toss was not an attempt at comedy

I posted up a few posts what Rian had to say about that scene. Nothing in there about him trying to make it funny

“It wasn’t coming into it and thinking, ‘Okay, they’re expecting this. Let’s have him toss the lightsaber. Ha, ha, ha.’ The reason he did that was because I can’t imagine any other honest reaction from him to that moment.”

“So, if you think about where Luke is at the beginning of this movie—and by the way, the cracking for me where Luke is at in this movie was the first big thing I had to do coming into it, where his head was at here, and there were fewer options than you would imagine. The thing we know about him from The Force Awakens, the big thing, is he’s taken himself out of the fight. His friends are fighting the good fight, he’s exiled off to an island alone. Knowing that Luke is a hero, knowing Luke from growing up, I know he must think he’s doing the right thing by taking himself out of the equation. And because he’s the last Jedi, by taking the Jedi out of the equation, by saying, ‘I’m taking the Jedi out of this fight,’ he must think that’s the best thing for the galaxy.”

“So, that leads you down a really specific path in terms of where his head is at. And if he’s done that and if he’s made this huge Herculean effort to pull himself out of the fight, to hide in, like he says, ‘The most unfindable place in the galaxy,’ it took an entire movie for the most heroic, smartest people in the galaxy to even find him, he’s put himself away. Then some kid shows up that he doesn’t know and shoves this thing that is everything that he has made this huge effort to step away from into his face with this look in her eyes of expectation like, ‘Here you go,’ and what is he going to do? Take it and say, ‘Great. Let’s go save the galaxy.’ He’s made this choice. He’s there for a reason. I knew it was going to be shocking, but I did it because it felt like, obviously it’s a dramatic expression of it, but it’s an expression of honestly the way that he is going to react to that moment.”

Rey's parents are not "our heroes" they are Rey's parents and according to Rey's own vision they did. So that is settled outside of any reliable evidence to the contrary. And, again, we do not know if Plutt trying to acquire BB-8 is usual for Plutt or an act of sudden greed, etc. I will, again, bring up the fact that Rey was raised healthy, responsible, educated, and with a good moral center.

I don't really see any overt similarity outside of speaking passionately, which is not unusual for any antagonist. Bad guys often speak in exaggerated manners, it lends to their aura of evil and mania.

The saber toss was definitely comedy. The over the shoulder toss is a well known comedic trope.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlindShoulderToss

RJ has been doing damage control. Like I said before, if Luke had to reject it for the story, a more tonally appropriate reaction would have been Luke lowering his arm and simply letting the saber slip from his grasp and fall to the ground. In fact there are large amounts of comedy in TLJ that support the saber shoulder toss also being an attempt at humor.