Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

[sztriki]

The saber toss was definitely comedy. The over the shoulder toss is a well known comedic trope.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlindShoulderToss

That article was written by Russian hackers.

 

[Joek3rr]

Rey's parents are not "our heroes" they are Rey's parents and according to Rey's own vision they did. So that is settled outside of any reliable evidence to the contrary. And, again, we do not know if Plutt trying to acquire BB-8 is usual for Plutt or an act of sudden greed, etc. I will, again, bring up the fact that Rey was raised healthy, responsible, educated, and with a good moral center.


RJ has been doing damage control. Like I said before, if Luke had to reject it for the story, a more tonally appropriate reaction would have been Luke lowering his arm and simply letting the saber slip from his grasp and fall to the ground. In fact there are large amounts of comedy in TLJ that support the saber shoulder toss also being an attempt at humor.

Exactly my point. They way she was left, and whom she was left with. In mind makes it impossible for her to be Luke's or Han's child. That just not something they would do.

And Rian is not doing "damage control" like you think. He says the same thing in the commentary, almost word for word the same, which was recorded before TLJ release. In fact when I was reading at first, I thought they had just taken what he said straight from the commentary.

 

[Psab keel]

I mean if they did choose to have Rey be Han or Luke's child, what's to say that she wasn't kidnapped and dropped off there by someone else? I mean I know it's not likely but again, it's not impossible. Sure no one in their right mind would have dumped off their child to live off of scraps in the desert and be under the care of some large emotionally abusive creep like Unkar Plutt, but whose to say that the person who dumped her there was her parents? I mean are people THAT unimaginative? It MUST have been her parents who dropped her there, right? Not necessarily.

This is the core of the issue though. Just because Rian Johnson made certain creative choices doesn't mean that those were the ONLY choices that could have been made. A lot of the blame for these issues falls at the feet of J.J. Abrams too for relying too much on the "mystery method." ESPECIALLY when it comes to Rey. It's hard to relate to someone we know very little about and that is a fundamental problem when she is the protagonist of this new trilogy since the burden of the story falls on her shoulders to carry the story forward. We need to feel like we are going on the journey WITH her by empathizing with her struggle. Has anyone considered the idea that it's pretty amazing that Rey turned out to be a decent human being with such good morals, despite the fact that she's had such a terrible life? Then when she suddenly finds out about the Force and can do all kinds of powerful things WITH it, she's never even TEMPTED to use it for her own selfish purposes? Kylo had a family that loved him and he STILL turned to the Dark Side. Rey was abandoned to live off of scraps and she turned out just fine. If anything the way that is structured, Kylo could very well have been the protagonist of this new trilogy.

Just like the fact that Luke exiling himself to that island because he felt so guilty for almost murdering his nephew is not the ONLY logical reason he would be there. In fact it makes very little sense if you think it through because why would he go to the location of the first Jedi Temple and artifacts if he is only going to renounce the Jedi way? I mean one mistake and Luke is dead set on renouncing his ENTIRE life? I don't buy it for a second. Are we to HONESTLY believe that Luke Skywalker would consider everything he fought for and all that he and his friends sacrificed to be a waste? Because given this logic, everything Han and Leia and company fought for was worthless too.

I call bull****. What's to say Luke didn't go to that island to find a way to SAVE his nephew? He went there seeking knowledge from the first Jedi temple to find a way to defeat the Dark Side once and for all? When he didn't find the answers he sought, THEN he wrestled with the fact that Kylo might be beyond saving?

See how Luke could have logically been there but I also didn't have to fundamentally change who Luke is as a character to justify what was set up in TFA? Why is it so impossible for people to consider that there were other ways to have handled the lingering questions that were set up in the previous episode? I know we didn't get these things, and ultimately we can't change these things now.

I've argued these exact same points time and again and ultimately it doesn't really matter because I'm just a fan who is posting on a forum and it's not going to change anyone's mind, or the direction that the filmmakers will take making future movies. I just can't fathom that some fans can't even CONSIDER that there were other options for where the story could have gone and that having to trash the OT characters to justify story choices wasn't necessary if they'd thought it through.

Joek3rr, I know you will come up with some explanations to try and refute every point I've raised so we are at an impasse and I'm sick and tired of arguing these points to death. One of these days I'll have to compile my writings on this series and do an in depth analysis. Even if it's just for my own interest just to get this all out of my head.

If you love the ST, I'm happy for you. I just can't stand when people blindly accept certain things just because it has the Star Wars name on it.

 

[Joek3rr]

This is the core of the issue though. Just because Rian Johnson made certain creative choices doesn't mean that those were the ONLY choices that could have been made. A lot of the blame for these issues falls at the feet of J.J. Abrams too for relying too much on the "mystery method." ESPECIALLY when it comes to Rey. It's hard to relate to someone we know very little about and that is a fundamental problem when she is the protagonist of this new trilogy since the burden of the story falls on her shoulders to carry the story forward. We need to feel like we are going on the journey WITH her by empathizing with her struggle. Has anyone considered the idea that it's pretty amazing that Rey turned out to be a decent human being with such good morals, despite the fact that she's had such a terrible life? Then when she suddenly finds out about the Force and can do all kinds of powerful things WITH it, she's never even TEMPTED to use it for her own selfish purposes? Kylo had a family that loved him and he STILL turned to the Dark Side. Rey was abandoned to live off of scraps and she turned out just fine. If anything the way that is structured, Kylo could very well have been the protagonist of this new trilogy.

Just like the fact that Luke exiling himself to that island because he felt so guilty for almost murdering his nephew is not the ONLY logical reason he would be there. In fact it makes very little sense if you think it through because why would he go to the location of the first Jedi Temple and artifacts if he is only going to renounce the Jedi way? I mean one mistake and Luke is dead set on renouncing his ENTIRE life? I don't buy it for a second. Are we to HONESTLY believe that Luke Skywalker would consider everything he fought for and all that he and his friends sacrificed to be a waste? Because given this logic, everything Han and Leia and company fought for was worthless too.

I call bull****. What's to say Luke didn't go to that island to find a way to SAVE his nephew? He went there seeking knowledge from the first Jedi temple to find a way to defeat the Dark Side once and for all? When he didn't find the answers he sought, THEN he wrestled with the fact that Kylo might be beyond saving?

See how Luke could have logically been there but I also didn't have to fundamentally change who Luke is as a character to justify what was set up in TFA? Why is it so impossible for people to consider that there were other ways to have handled the lingering questions that were set up in the previous episode? I know we didn't get these things, and ultimately we can't change these things now.

So this is my biggest concern for Ep9. JJ is a great at setting up mysteries. But doing pay offs for them......not so much.



I know I'm not going to change your mind, but if I may suggest another way to look at things.

Luke's exile isn't just because he feels guilt over being tempted to murder his nephew. There's a whole host of reasons (in his mind) why he's gone there, and why he's staying there. That's just one of them.
That's why I've said if Luke had just lost Ben, or his students, or was just tempted to murder his nephew. I wouldn't buy the idea that Luke would go into exile. But when you add, Ben turning some of his students turning, the rest of his students being murdered, his temple being burnt to the ground, being tempted to murder his nephew. You add that all together. Yeah I can buy Luke going into exile.

And while people have suggested before, that he could have gone there to seek some knowledge. Then why on earth didn't he tell anyone? This fact alone should have raised some red flags about Luke's state of mind, even before TLJ came out. When someone goes of somewheres without telling anyone, that's indicative of someone that doesn't want to be found.

 

[Psab keel]

I don't accept those ideas because it is exactly what Episode 8 gave us.

I can accept that Luke wouldn't want to be found to take time to find a solution. I can accept that Luke went into exile. I can even accept that Luke would question the Jedi way, but again it could have easily been executed in a way that wouldn't negate what Luke had suffered and fought for in the previous installments. Perhaps Luke sought to find a new way to view the Force and find a better way to pass that knowledge on to a new generation. Also why was it necessary to have Luke be the cause of Kylo's fall? On the surface it seems like it's a good twist, but it's really not when you think about it long enough given what we know about Luke as a character.

Plus why introduce the Jedi Books and why would Luke not have read them? Seems like a wasted opportunity to introduce some new knowledge of the Force to the audience and perhaps even give a reason for Luke to have gone to the island in the first place. Perhaps Luke went to the island in the hopes of finding a way to save his nephew. By the time Rey gets there she finds Luke and it is revealed that Luke couldn't leave the island because he'd died. I mean talk about a twist!

The fact that I could come up with other possibilities proves that there WERE other ways to have gone with the story.

You say you're not trying to change my mind but you just keep telling me to consider exactly what is presented in the film. The same logic, the same lame reasons we are given in the film. You're clearly very smart, but are you incapable of considering other story ideas for what Episode 8 could have been?

 

[sztriki]

Here's another thing that completely detracts from Luke's ideas of exiling himself to end the Jedi, and this idea came after rewatching the deleted "third lesson" scene. So in a nutshell Luke argues that Rey did the right thing in trying to save the caretakers from the "raiders" and that is what the Resistance needs and "not some old hunk of religion" (meaning the Jedi). So his logic is that running off with the lightsaber and the Force at hand is the right thing to do as opposed to following the Jedi teaching to "let things play out at the will of the Force". So what keeps him "getting his lasersword" and his Force powers, renounce the Jedi teaching and just call himself...I dunno, Forcewarrior or something and do what he thinks is right? RJ even said he'd love to jump back into action and help his friends. What keeps him? He doesn't tell Rey to stop using the force forever, he says don't follow the Jedi ideas.

 

[Psab keel]

McExactly. The two ideas seem to be at odds with one another. Plus that scene REALLY makes Luke out to be a real ********.

Plus I'm sick and ****ing tired of this lame idea that Luke leaving Dagobah in Empire to try and save his friends is somehow a failure on his part. Sure it may not have been the wisest decision but since when is trying to help those you love such a bad thing? At least Luke had the guts to risk his life for something larger than himself than sit idly by and do nothing.

 

[Joek3rr]

Here's another thing that completely detracts from Luke's ideas of exiling himself to end the Jedi, and this idea came after rewatching the deleted "third lesson" scene. So in a nutshell Luke argues that Rey did the right thing in trying to save the caretakers from the "raiders" and that is what the Resistance needs and "not some old hunk of religion" (meaning the Jedi). So his logic is that running off with the lightsaber and the Force at hand is the right thing to do as opposed to following the Jedi teaching to "let things play out at the will of the Force". So what keeps him "getting his lasersword" and his Force powers, renounce the Jedi teaching and just call himself...I dunno, Forcewarrior or something and do what he thinks is right? RJ even said he'd love to jump back into action and help his friends. What keeps him? He doesn't tell Rey to stop using the force forever, he says don't follow the Jedi ideas.

This is how I see it. Maybe I'm wrong.

Jedi and Sith had been fighting on and off for thousands of years. And finally in ROTJ the Sith are defeated. But 27ish years later the Jedi are destroyed from the inside out again, and Dark Side come back to power. Wait a second with Sith dead why wasn't everything perfect? Well perhaps the Jedi are a part of the problem, just as much as the Sith where. Kinda like the Batman Joker question. Batman saves people right? Yet the only reason Joker exists is because of Batman. So in the end, is Batman helping?

So Luke's third lesson is that the galaxy needs a Force sensitive group to help, but not the Jedi themselves. Of course by the end, we know that the answer is, the Jedi. They just need some more reforming.

 

[JoeG]

Plus I'm sick and ****ing tired of this lame idea that Luke leaving Dagobah in Empire to try and save his friends is somehow a failure on his part. Sure it may not have been the wisest decision but since when is trying to help those you love such a bad thing? At least Luke had the guts to risk his life for something larger than himself than sit idly by and do nothing.

By running off and abandoning his jedi training, Luke put the entire fate of the galaxy at risk in order to save the lives of his friends. Obi Wan and Yoda both told him to stay and continue his training because he could do far more good against the Empire as a fully trained jedi. That is hardly sitting idly by and doing nothing. The fact is, by leaving and going against Vader prematurely, he did fail. Massively. He put the needs of the few before the lives of the many. Thats being selfish. For a hero, thats failure.

 

[sztriki]

So Luke's third lesson is that the galaxy needs a Force sensitive group to help, but not the Jedi themselves. Of course by the end, we know that the answer is, the Jedi. They just need some more reforming.

I sure hope that you see why people think that all this back-and-forth with Luke's ideas and what the movie tells us are contradictory. You perfectly summed it all up. Confused and convoluted do not equal complex. So again, either Luke is wrong and the Jedi do not need to end (which is what the movie tells us) or a new Force-light needs to come which does not mean that Luke needs to drown himself in green milk at all and he cannot help.

Plus surely there are other dark/light Force groups than the Jedi and the Sith. Nobody expected that the two Siths were the only dark side users and everything was, will be or would be perfect methinks.

 

[Joek3rr]

I sure hope that you see why people think that all this back-and-forth with Luke's ideas and what the movie tells us are contradictory. You perfectly summed it all up. Confused and convoluted do not equal complex. So again, either Luke is wrong and the Jedi do not need to end (which is what the movie tells us) or a new Force-light needs to come which does not mean that Luke needs to drown himself in green milk at all and he cannot help.

Plus surely there are other dark/light Force groups than the Jedi and the Sith. Nobody expected that the two Siths were the only dark side users and everything was, will be or would be perfect methinks.

I don't see it as a back and forth. It's the Jedi order needing to find a balance. Everything in Star Wars is about harmony and balance.

 

[Joek3rr]

McExactly. The two ideas seem to be at odds with one another. Plus that scene REALLY makes Luke out to be a real ********.

Plus I'm sick and ****ing tired of this lame idea that Luke leaving Dagobah in Empire to try and save his friends is somehow a failure on his part. Sure it may not have been the wisest decision but since when is trying to help those you love such a bad thing? At least Luke had the guts to risk his life for something larger than himself than sit idly by and do nothing.

Master Yoda and Obi-Wan answer that several times.

"Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could. But you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."

"This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force."

"Yes, yes. To Obi-Wan you listen. The cave. Remember your failure at the cave!"

"If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."

Luke's failure isn't because we wanted to save his friends. It's because he's letting his emotions control him. Part of which, is to get revenge on Vader.

 

[sztriki]

I don't see it as a back and forth. It's the Jedi order needing to find a balance. Everything in Star Wars is about harmony and balance.

And where's the balance in packing everything up and throwing it out in the bin? Cuz that's what Luke was trying to do.

 

[Psab keel]

Had Luke turned to the Dark Side in Empire I would agree with you. Plus you are still conveniently not acknowledging Vader's redemption at Luke's hand. Had Luke not learned of his true parentage then Vader would have never been saved.

 

[Joek3rr]

And where's the balance in packing everything up and throwing it out in the bin? Cuz that's what Luke was trying to do.

Yes WAS trying to do. But don't forget that while Luke wasn't wrong, about the Jedi having problems. His decision is ultimately one made from guilt and grief. By the end of the movie Luke has come to a different understanding. So that he says " and I will not be the last Jedi"

 

[Joek3rr]

Had Luke turned to the Dark Side in Empire I would agree with you. Plus you are still conveniently not acknowledging Vader's redemption at Luke's hand. Had Luke not learned of his true parentage then Vader would have never been saved.

But would have he come so close to compeletly falling? Would Han been captured? If Luke hadn't started down the dark path. ROTJ, TFA, and TLJ would have been very different. What plans did the Force have?

 

[Psab keel]

By that logic then why bother doing anything at all if the Force controls everything. What is this need to justify every single decision Rian Johnson makes?

 

[Psab keel]

By running off and abandoning his jedi training, Luke put the entire fate of the galaxy at risk in order to save the lives of his friends. Obi Wan and Yoda both told him to stay and continue his training because he could do far more good against the Empire as a fully trained jedi. That is hardly sitting idly by and doing nothing. The fact is, by leaving and going against Vader prematurely, he did fail. Massively. He put the needs of the few before the lives of the many. Thats being selfish. For a hero, thats failure.

I guarantee you no one thought this before TLJ came out and Rian Johnson put the idea in people's heads. And again, ultimately by Luke learning the truth about his heritage he was able to learn that part of Anakin still lived in Vader and that he might not yet be beyond saving. Again, NO ONE has acknowledged Vader being redeemed was the result of Luke's sacrifice.

Did Return of the Jedi NOT happen? Am I crazy?

The foundation for most of the arguments that defend this movie hinges on the ridiculous idea that the Original trilogy is flawed. While the OT isn't perfect, it's damn near it and people didn't question most of the things that these new films try to "answer". Rogue One is guilty of this too. Trying to answer questions that no one really had in the first place and people only came up with to try and think of themselves as clever, when the answer was right there in the film all along. There is a reason why these films have stood the test of time. These new films will not.

 

[sztriki]

Yes WAS trying to do. But don't forget that while Luke wasn't wrong, about the Jedi having problems. His decision is ultimately one made from guilt and grief. By the end of the movie Luke has come to a different understanding. So that he says " and I will not be the last Jedi"

That's exactly what I said in my first post. Like literally. You just reiterated what I've been saying 5 posts before without realizing it because the focus of the discussion is constantly changing.
Is there a way to put an entire thread on ignore? Or it's just gonna be a big test of self-control not to check any updates or new posts from now on, because I'm pissing myself off for coming here and reading/replying to the most mundande discussions in the known universe.

 

[JoeG]

I don't know how old you were when ESB first came out, but you should go and read some reactions and reviews from the time and get an accurate representation of what people thought.