Star Wars: The Last Jedi (Post-release)

[Laspector]

At least we don't have to constantly hear about SWIQ anymore.

 

[Joek3rr]

Tarkin directly refers to the Emperor and says he dissolved the Imperial Senate and took total control. This is factually way more than we know about how Snoke became a Supreme leader. A little backstory is still backstory.

Why is Unkar Plutt a bad person? He raised Rey and how did she turn out? Strong, independent, technologically educated and with a good moral center. Is it because he makes her work for her food? Adults who work in their parents businesses typically have to work to get paid. Is it because he wanted to get BB-8 and turn it over to the First Order? Maybe he was trying to save Rey from getting tangled up with them.

It's pretty clear she's not a Skywalker, that family tree is well known. Doesn't have to be OWK's child to be a Kenobi, his family tree is virtually unknown.

Hux was acting like a dictator in TFA. In TLJ he is the butt of many jokes and involved in much physical comedy. Your personal opinion on how historical dictators acted is just that, your opinion. The objective reality is that they were able to convince large populations of people to do their will, and it wasn't because those people thought they made funny speeches.

Your video and the Luke scene are not comparable except that both are SW and someone threw a cylindrical object. The tone and import of both scenes are different, as is the perception of how and why the objects were thrown. SW can have comedic moments, the problem is how they are executed and who they involve, as I explained in my prior post.

How is Unkar Plutt a bad person?....................she's basically living like Oliver Twist. Scavenging so she can get paid. And her payment? Food. I mean come on she's living in an old AT-AT a long way from town. And also don't forget that Unkar sent his thugs after her when she wouldn't sell the BB-8. Some foster parent that guy is. Most places that would constitue as child abuse.

And I never said their speeches were funny. Though I wonder why many people just laughed off Hiller and Mussolini? There were a lot of people that were shocked when the bombs started dropping. In fact Hitler's crazy antics when he spoke where considered so humorous, by many in the US and the UK. That Charlie Chaplin made a hilarious parody of it. ( Which can be seen in the film, The Great Dictator. It's a must watch if you haven't seen it) Every speech Hux gives, reminds me of those two maniacs.

And actually Kyle and Luke are very similar. Both have turned their backs on the Jedi and the Force. And neither wants to hold something that connects them to those things. Though the difference between the two being. Kyle has turned his back on the Jedi and the Force. While Luke feels he doing something positive and good, by removing the Jedi from the equation. Interestingly both men just about killed their student. Which is the catalyst for their turning away from it all.

 

[MrSouthpaw]

How is Unkar Plutt a bad person?....................she's basically living like Oliver Twist. Scavenging so she can get paid. And her payment? Food. I mean come on she's living in an old AT-AT a long way from town. And also don't forget that Unkar sent his thugs after her when she wouldn't sell the BB-8. Some foster parent that guy is. Most places that would constitue as child abuse.

And I never said their speeches were funny. Though I wonder why many people just laughed off Hiller and Mussolini? There were a lot of people that were shocked when the bombs started dropping. In fact Hitler's crazy antics when he spoke where considered so humorous, by many in the US and the UK. That Charlie Chaplin made a hilarious parody of it. ( Which can be seen in the film, The Great Dictator. It's a must watch if you haven't seen it) Every speech Hux gives, reminds me of those two maniacs.

And actually Kyle and Luke are very similar. Both have turned their backs on the Jedi and the Force. And neither wants to hold something that connects them to those things. Though the difference between the two being. Kyle has turned his back on the Jedi and the Force. While Luke feels he doing something positive and good, by removing the Jedi from the equation. Interestingly both men just about killed their student. Which is the catalyst for their turning away from it all.

She is working for pay. That doesn't make Plutt a bad person, it makes him an employer. AT-AT's are not tiny, the body alone is larger than some real houses and she owns a speeder to get into town. In relation to storytelling, it is supposed to show that she comes from humble beginnings, not that Plutt is evil.

It's too bad RJ decided to not explore her past in more detail or we might have gotten a real take on her relationship to Plutt, why she was left with him, what being raised by him was like etc. Proving just how much subverting expectations is a cheap thing to do. Especially when it comes to learning about the protagonist of this trilogy. But we do know she ended up far more good than bad under his care.

You didn't say they made funny speeches? I'll quote here...

Watch some of Hitler's and Mussolini's speeches. The posturing, the flailing of the arms, it's ridiculous, it would be down right hilarious if we didn't know how many people they were responsible for killing.

Ridiculous and funny are synonymous.

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/funny

And you factually just said Hitler was considered "humorous". This time without the "killed people" qualifier. So I think that is you arguing Hitler made funny speeches, twice. And Hux only gave one speech, in TFA, in which he mostly stood stock-still. What other speeches are you talking about?

The import and tone of the scene, and motivation of the "throw" are different. You did not address the first two and actually prove me right on the third. And you are reaching now, trying to justify the scene by comparing Luke to a character that is not even in the movies.

 

[Joek3rr]

She is working for pay. That doesn't make Plutt a bad person, it makes him an employer. AT-AT's are not tiny, the body alone is larger than some real houses and she owns a speeder to get into town. In relation to storytelling, it is supposed to show that she comes from humble beginnings, not that Plutt is evil.

It's too bad RJ decided to not explore her past in more detail or we might have gotten a real take on her relationship to Plutt, why she was left with him, what being raised by him was like etc. Proving just how much subverting expectations is a cheap thing to do. Especially when it comes to learning about the protagonist of this trilogy. But we do know she ended up far more good than bad under his care.

You didn't say they made funny speeches? I'll quote here...


Ridiculous and funny are synonymous.

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/funny

And you factually just said Hitler was considered "humorous". This time without the "killed people" qualifier. So I think that is you arguing Hitler made funny speeches, twice. And Hux only gave one speech, in TFA, in which he mostly stood stock-still. What other speeches are you talking about?

The import and tone of the scene, and motivation of the "throw" are different. You did not address the first two and actually prove me right on the third. And you are reaching now, trying to justify the scene by comparing Luke to a character that is not even in the movies.

An employer that send his goons to beat you up when things don't go his way. That isn't a nice person. Not a person that one of our heroes would leave their child with.

Sorry, let me clarify myself. When you said the speeches were funny, I thought you meant what they were speaking. As in the words they are saying. So that was my bad. What I'm trying to say (and doing a lousy job) is that it's was delivery, how they spoke that I consider humorous. And I find the way Hux delivers he's speeches, how he presents himself, to be right in line. I love it in TFA when he's literally shaking has he screams.

I find it interesting that some think that was supposed to be a comedic moment. I sure didn't. I thought it was very serious.

And how am I reaching? Both men are touching objects which connects them physically and spiritually to their past as Jedi. A past which they tried to forget. A past where they royally messed up. In Kyle's case because he fell to the Dark Side and just about killed his student Mara Jade. In Luke's case his multiple failures has brought him. One of them being he came very close to killing his student, Ben Solo.

The difference between the two tosses is. Kyle's is a knee junk response. While Luke's comes after an internal argument.

And there are more differences. As I said before, Kyle has simply turned his back on everything, because of his failures. While Luke is done the same thing, at the same he believes he doing good, that he's helping. He sees that Jedi keep mucking things up. And perhaps the Jedi are as much a part of the problem as the Sith were. And to fully end this continual distructful conflict. The Jedi need to go the same way as the Sith.

 

[JD]

Who’s snoke?
Who’s Rey’s parents? / who’s the girl?
Who dropped of Rey on jakku?
Where did the graflex come from?!

That said, you can take the same questions and apply to them to the OT:

Who's The Emperor?
Who's (sic) Luke's parents? (In ANH we get quick comments that he was pilot, then a Jedi... then in ESB we learn Vader is his father. Still not a mention of Mom).
Who dropped Luke off on Tattooine?
Where did the graflex come from?! (I'll admit the question becomes even more complex in the ST, and it's a part of the story I'm not really happy with...).

SW has always been full of stories and characters without real backstories or reasons why. Not everything can be covered in a 2-hour movie. We can add stuff like "why did Vader's lightsaber change between ESB and RotJ? why didn't they talk about Luke's Mom? How did Luke learn to use a lightsaber (we never see Yoda and him using them)? Who are all the guys on the Death Star in the meeting with Tarkin and Vader? Who are all the guys on Death Star II with Palpatine and Vader?

 

[seelsa73]

I find it interesting that some think that was supposed to be a comedic moment. I sure didn't. I thought it was very serious.

I'm assuming you're referencing the saber toss moment here and I gotta tell you, the record scratch in the music makes it pretty clear to me it was meant as a comedic moment. Plus there's the fact that audiences, in both of my theater viewings of the movie at least, laughed at the moment. I know this point has been made a million times already, but it bears repeating; if you want people to take a moment like that seriously, you have the actor either drop it at their feet or toss it aside, not throw it over their shoulder (which is a classic comedy trope, I might add).

 

[Joek3rr]

I'm assuming you're referencing the saber toss moment here and I gotta tell you, the record scratch in the music makes it pretty clear to me it was meant as a comedic moment. Plus there's the fact that audiences, in both of my theater viewings of the movie at least, laughed at the moment. I know this point has been made a million times already, but it bears repeating; if you want people to take a moment like that seriously, you have the actor either drop it at their feet or toss it aside, not throw it over their shoulder (which is a classic comedy trope, I might add).

Nobody laughed in my theater.

And for funs here's Rian's thought's.

“It wasn’t coming into it and thinking, ‘Okay, they’re expecting this. Let’s have him toss the lightsaber. Ha, ha, ha.’ The reason he did that was because I can’t imagine any other honest reaction from him to that moment.”

“So, if you think about where Luke is at the beginning of this movie—and by the way, the cracking for me where Luke is at in this movie was the first big thing I had to do coming into it, where his head was at here, and there were fewer options than you would imagine. The thing we know about him from The Force Awakens, the big thing, is he’s taken himself out of the fight. His friends are fighting the good fight, he’s exiled off to an island alone. Knowing that Luke is a hero, knowing Luke from growing up, I know he must think he’s doing the right thing by taking himself out of the equation. And because he’s the last Jedi, by taking the Jedi out of the equation, by saying, ‘I’m taking the Jedi out of this fight,’ he must think that’s the best thing for the galaxy.”

“So, that leads you down a really specific path in terms of where his head is at. And if he’s done that and if he’s made this huge Herculean effort to pull himself out of the fight, to hide in, like he says, ‘The most unfindable place in the galaxy,’ it took an entire movie for the most heroic, smartest people in the galaxy to even find him, he’s put himself away. Then some kid shows up that he doesn’t know and shoves this thing that is everything that he has made this huge effort to step away from into his face with this look in her eyes of expectation like, ‘Here you go,’ and what is he going to do? Take it and say, ‘Great. Let’s go save the galaxy.’ He’s made this choice. He’s there for a reason. I knew it was going to be shocking, but I did it because it felt like, obviously it’s a dramatic expression of it, but it’s an expression of honestly the way that he is going to react to that moment.”

 

[seelsa73]

The moment itself is not the problem, its the way it's executed.

Ik what RJ says, and if that were all there was to it, I would have had no problem with Luke in the movie. Because it makes a certain amount of sense. But that's not the real reason he's exiled himself to the island, that's just what he tells himself. What really keeps him from rejoining the fight is his guilt at almost killing Ben. How is he supposed to face his sister and his best friend knowing that he maliciously raised a lightsaber to their son? An action that Luke Skywalker - a man who went through hell and came out the other side a better, wiser man and JEDI in the OT - never in a million years would have EVER even entertained the thought of taking.

 

[PantheraGem]

Saber toss was supposed to be subversive and funny. I don't care who says what now. It doesn't jive at all with the look on Luke's face at the end of TFA. Much less that he's standing there in full Jedi regalia.

 

[Joek3rr]

The moment itself is not the problem, its the way it's executed.

Ik what RJ says, and if that were all there was to it, I would have had no problem with Luke in the movie. Because it makes a certain amount of sense. But that's not the real reason he's exiled himself to the island, that's just what he tells himself. What really keeps him from rejoining the fight is his guilt at almost killing Ben. How is he supposed to face his sister and his best friend knowing that he maliciously raised a lightsaber to their son? An action that Luke Skywalker - a man who went through hell and came out the other side a better, wiser man and JEDI in the OT - never in a million years would have EVER even entertained the thought of taking.

This why I love Luke in TLJ. He's so complex. Nothing is just black and white. Luke is on that island to bring an end to the Jedi, is just one of many reasons in my mind. I love the fact that we know the Jedi are ultimately the best hope for the galaxy. But at the same time Luke is right. The Jedi's legacy is failure. For being guardians of peace and justice, they sure muck that up a lot.

 

[Joek3rr]

Saber toss was supposed to be subversive and funny. I don't care who says what now. It doesn't jive at all with the look on Luke's face at the end of TFA. Much less that he's standing there in full Jedi regalia.

When you say it was supposed to be subversive. I assume you mean that some fans expectations where subverted?

If it isn't what you meant then what I'm about to say doesn't mean anything.



So you can believe that Rian was trying to subvert fans expectations. But the truth is the exact opposite. The first quote in my post above shows that he didn't have that in mind. And we know he's telling the truth because Rian finished writing TLJ before anyone had seen TFA. So there weren't any fan expectations or theories to subvert! So unless he's some sort time traveler, it's impossible for him to purposefully write his film to subvert things that didn't exist yet.

 

[seelsa73]

This why I love Luke in TLJ. He's so complex. Nothing is just black and white. Luke is on that island to bring an end to the Jedi, is just one of many reasons in my mind. I love the fact that we know the Jedi are ultimately the best hope for the galaxy. But at the same time Luke is right. The Jedi's legacy is failure. For being guardians of peace and justice, they sure muck that up a lot.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on anything you just said. I can absolutely see the Luke of the OT, after Ben's betrayal, seeing the Jedi order as the problem and exiling himself so that it dies with him. My problem with the character in TLJ comes from the event that led to the betrayal. Take out "Without even attempting to talk to him about it, I'm going to kill my nephew, who has so far done nothing to anyone, because the Force says he's evil even though I know from hard-won experience that the Force only shows us possible futures because it's always in motion" and add a line from Luke saying something like, "I would like nothing more than to go out there with a lightsaber and face down the whole First Order by myself but I can't! *proceeds to tell his thoughts on why the Jedi need to end*, and you've got yourself a great movie. Or at least a great Luke Skywalker. I have plenty more complaints than that in the movie as a whole lol.

 

[Jagjaguwar]

Saber toss was supposed to be subversive and funny. I don't care who says what now. It doesn't jive at all with the look on Luke's face at the end of TFA. Much less that he's standing there in full Jedi regalia.

I really liked TLJ, but I agree with this 100%.

That scene at the end of TFA, Luke’s pained look when he sees Rey holding out the saber- his saber- was one of the highlights of the film for me. Ruining that scene by using a literal throwaway gag in TLJ was incredibly jarring. It’d have worked for me if they’d had him take it in TLJ, levitate it, and break it apart into a million pieces, or if he actually threw it off of the island. But some half-***ed throw over his shoulder, down a hillside? Just dumb.

 

[Joek3rr]

I don't necessarily disagree with you on anything you just said. I can absolutely see the Luke of the OT, after Ben's betrayal, seeing the Jedi order as the problem and exiling himself so that it dies with him. My problem with the character in TLJ comes from the event that led to the betrayal. Take out "Without even attempting to talk to him about it, I'm going to kill my nephew, who has so far done nothing to anyone, because the Force says he's evil even though I know from hard-won experience that the Force only shows us possible futures because it's always in motion" and add a line from Luke saying something like, "I would like nothing more than to go out there with a lightsaber and face down the whole First Order by myself but I can't! *proceeds to tell his thoughts on why the Jedi need to end*, and you've got yourself a great movie. Or at least a great Luke Skywalker. I have plenty more complaints than that in the movie as a whole lol.

That's is why I think the Dark Side is at work in Luke. He's exhibiting all the signs, fear, anger, hatred. The fact he went into Ben's hut in the middle of the night, to begin with, suggests, I believe, a decision made out of fear. And to add to that, he sees the dark machinations of Ben, and possibly the death of Han and Leia. And that would have been the needed kick for Luke to momentarily succumb to Dark Side. Aunt Beru said it, "He's got much of his father in him". Both Luke and Anakin are drawn to the Dark Side when they see visions of the future. And attempt to change that future.

 

[seelsa73]

That's is why I think the Dark Side is at work in Luke. He's exhibiting all the signs, fear, anger, hatred. The fact he went into Ben's hut in the middle of the night, to begin with, suggests, I believe, a decision made out of fear. And to add to that, he sees the dark machinations of Ben, and possibly the death of Han and Leia. And that would have been the needed kick for Luke to momentarily succumb to Dark Side. Aunt Beru said it, "He's got much of his father in him". Both Luke and Anakin are drawn to the Dark Side when they see visions of the future. And attempt to change that future.

But he already beat the darkness in himself in ROTJ. Succumbing to it again for even a second invalidates everything he went through and learned throughout the OT. You might as well rip him from the history books because it all meant nothing in the end.

 

[Joek3rr]

But he already beat the darkness in himself in ROTJ. Succumbing to it again for even a second invalidates everything he went through and learned throughout the OT. You might as well rip him from the history books because it all meant nothing in the end.

But that's not how the Dark Side works. In fact, Master Yoda said, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will."

Also, it's worth pointing out, that Yoda tells Luke that facing Vader is a prerequisite for him to become a Jedi. In essence, he's going through the what's referred to as "Jedi Trials". the Jedi Trials is something that all padawans must do to become Jedi Knights. So that means every Jedi Knight has had to face his or her inner darkness and beat it. Yet Jedi still fall to the Dark Side. Heck Count Dooku a Jedi Master fell to the Dark Side. No one immune to the Dark Side of the Force.

So yes in ROTJ, Luke overcame the temptations of the Dark Side. Does this mean he gets a "get out of Dark Side free" card? Nope, not hardly. And we see this in TLJ. While Luke did succumb to the Dark Side, it was fleeting. The important part here is, it was momentary, he stopped himself. He never attacked, he never swung his saber.

 

[Psab keel]

Given that Luke conquered the Dark Side in ROTJ we really didn't need to see him conquer it again in this new trilogy in a really complex way, especially since the focus should be on Rey and her struggle with the Dark Side (which is not really all that effective in my opinion). There were better ways to deal with Luke than the way Rian did, but it's too late now so it really doesn't matter.

There has to be a way for me to resist this thread. I feel like it's some horrible drug that I can't kick. I'm so sick of talking about this ****ing **** movie. lol

 

[Joek3rr]

Given that Luke conquered the Dark Side in ROTJ we really didn't need to see him conquer it again in this new trilogy in a really complex way, especially since the focus should be on Rey and her struggle with the Dark Side (which is not really all that effective in my opinion). There were better ways to deal with Luke than the way Rian did, but it's too late now so it really doesn't matter.

There has to be a way for me to resist this thread. I feel like it's some horrible drug that I can't kick. I'm so sick of talking about this ****ing **** movie. lol

The Dark Side ain't a one and done deal. It's a daily struggle.

And I sense something very important for Rey. The focus of her story isnt about struggling with the Dark Side like the Skywalkers. Her story is going to be about redeeming Ben Solo, being his equal. I have a feeling Rey and Ben are going to be romantically involved. Rey and Ben will do what Anakin and Padme couldn't. Rey (Yin) and Ben (Yang) will come together with compassion and love as the bond. Ending once and for all the destructive conflict.



Note the extra symbol in the middle.

 

[Psab keel]

Given that this is supposed to be Rey's story, Luke's struggle with the dark side didn't need to be the focus. Especially since he defeated it and redeemed Vader. But apparently that meant nothing because neither 7 nor 8 ever addressed Anakin's redemption. It should be about Rey's struggle with the Dark Side. There are other reasons why Luke could have been on that island. Just because Rian chose THAT reason and refused to explore others doesn't make it a good creative choice. Besides, I'd say that from the rumors swirling around regarding the direction that J.J. Abrams may be taking the story in 9, he may be disregarding some of what happened in 8 anyway, negating some of what Rian seems so desperate to justify.

Having Rey and Kylo end up falling in love is contrived and comes across like tween fan fiction. I get that you love this movie but honestly, your unabashed love for it isn't going to convince anyone who hates this movie to change their mind. I'm not trying to change your mind either but this posturing is getting kind of old. The fact that this thread just keeps going on and on and on is just tiring. The fact that more threads keep popping up to bitch about this movie are getting old too. I know I am guilty of caving into the debate too so I'm not exempt from it either. I'm just tired.

I just lament what could have been. I think that's what this boils down to. Just the unrealized potential of what could have been. Only to realize that in the end, the story ended for me in 1983. I just don't want to let it go because I love it so damn much and to have seen Luke, Han, and Leia on screen together one last time would have been enough for me. Now that can never happen and it will never be the same. That just breaks my heart.

 

[kalkamel]

Reading this thread now is like watching the longest ever tennis rally with no end in sight.