Star Wars saga. Prequels and Sequels.

greenmachines, the best reconstruction I was able to put together (hard to sift through George's contradictory "always intended" comments) is... In early drafts, the helmet and mask were to cross space to board the princess' ship. George did intend to overdub him for the voice filter of the mask. Somewhere in the process, George liked how imposing and anonymous he looked in the mask and decided to have him keep it on throughout. This was a late development. In the version of the story Marvel Comics and Alan Dean Foster got to turn into their adaptations, it was presumed the breath mask was for the boarding action and flying his fighter. Though it wasn't pointed out, they presumed Vader would have his helmet off for all the scenes on the Death Star, including the conference room scene. Hence him levitating a coffee mug to himself.

There seems also to have been a question (possibly in George's mind, possibly in others') of how well Dave would do with delivering the lines. His natural accent was pretty thick, and I don't know whether they tried him with others (see: A Clockwork Orange and Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy). I know it was a decision made either vary late in preproduction or at Elstree once they started filming on the Death Star set.

And then George made Vader Anakin, instead of them being separate characters, and Dave was too young (as Vader was supposed to have been one of Obi-Wan's students, where Obi-Wan and Anakin was closer to being of an age), so for the reveal they wanted an actor who they felt looked and sounded right.

And this doesn't take into consideration all the times it was one of the fight choreographers in the suit, and not Dave at all...

But these are still one of my favorite Old School Cools that might have been:

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Thank you, this is all new to me and I am a lifer. And, total tangent, that side profile looks a lot like Kylo and Han. Now I am thinking how little kylo looks like Shaw and how much he does look like Dave. Am I just way off on that or does his sitting pic look like kylo?
 
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What I never understood, is why did Vader submit to Luke when Vader's mechanical right arm/saber was severed? Vader did not have his saber of course, but there is no reason that he should have yielded, just losing his mechanical hand. He didn't suddenly lose all of his strength or Force abilities.

Looking at the scene again, I think the yield was due to one thing: Vader was an old man.


After threatening Leia, Luke goes beserk and I think Vader/Anakin realizes how ****** he is at that moment (literally the meme).

Luke is young, driven by anger, and ready to kill compared to Vader who is moving uncomfortably and slowly in his mechanical body. The last part of the fight is Vader essentially being pushed back, constantly retreating and trying to counter but being unable. After his arm is cut off again and he is on the ground, Vader is literally panting and cant get up, hence why he yields. He is defenseless, tired, and defeated.

I find the Anakin vs Dooku fight in episode 3 to be similar in a sense. Dooku is the more skilled fighter but his style cant counter Anakin’s heavy blows and Anakin is fully in control of tje battle, literally batting away Dooku’s blade at one point. If Vader was in his prime like Anakin in episode 3, he could have tanked that arm cut, called the saber back with his other hand and kept fighting. Vader as an old man now cant however.
 
RJ and Abbrams want to tell very different stories that dont just align. Even just forgetting the story is “Star Wars” and looking at the ST as a single trilogy, the story doesnt flow into one another. Thats honestly why I dont think the ST will be remembered well no matter how much time passes because the story as a trilogy doesnt flow well. The idea of having 3 separate directors make one film in the trilogy with the directors being undecided (and therefore not having any inout in the initial creation of the story and characters so they have an idea of how the story will ultimately play out) was a huge mistake. It would be like asking JK Rowling to write a sequel to Harry Potter, then having Dan Brown write the second book, and then having GRR Martin write the conclusion because they are all popular authors.
 
RJ and Abbrams want to tell very different stories that dont just align. Even just forgetting the story is “Star Wars” and looking at the ST as a single trilogy, the story doesnt flow into one another. Thats honestly why I dont think the ST will be remembered well no matter how much time passes because the story as a trilogy doesnt flow well. The idea of having 3 separate directors make one film in the trilogy with the directors being undecided (and therefore not having any inout in the initial creation of the story and characters so they have an idea of how the story will ultimately play out) was a huge mistake. It would be like asking JK Rowling to write a sequel to Harry Potter, then having Dan Brown write the second book, and then having GRR Martin write the conclusion because they are all popular authors.
Agreed. I think a good counter example is mandolorian but not counter to your point. It actually supports it. Where ST had randomness and disassociated directing, Mandolorian had highly concerted and unified multidirecting. Multiple directors but not free to run the show without input. Each gets a chance at the reigns but has to listen to the groups input as a canon compass. ST felt more like episodic directing of a sitcom where each director ran hard in their own tack. No canon knowledge, no physics or mechanical canon followed, just a-ha moments akin to LOST the series. Why do we not see kinectic weapons using lightspeed jumps to devastate expensive targets in previous shows? Because it isn't canon physics. No need for planet killers like the deathstar if all you needed was a lightspeed engine spare and a big rock to attach it to. Random uncontrolled storylines.
 
Agreed. I think a good counter example is mandolorian but not counter to your point. It actually supports it. Where ST had randomness and disassociated directing, Mandolorian had highly concerted and unified multidirecting. Multiple directors but not free to run the show without input. Each gets a chance at the reigns but has to listen to the groups input as a canon compass. ST felt more like episodic directing of a sitcom where each director ran hard in their own tack. No canon knowledge, no physics or mechanical canon followed, just a-ha moments akin to LOST the series. Why do we not see kinectic weapons using lightspeed jumps to devastate expensive targets in previous shows? Because it isn't canon physics. No need for planet killers like the deathstar if all you needed was a lightspeed engine spare and a big rock to attach it to. Random uncontrolled storylines.
Agreed. Another great example is the MCU during the early phases (which you can argue is when it was actually good). The movies were directed by a handful of different directors but Fegie and Whedon were the overarching story masterminds that kind of forced the movies to follow a certain narrative to get to where they needed to go.

I do think there is pros and cons to one director vs many. One director will have a clear view, freedom to explore and take risks, and will have a consistent “narrative flow” or way that affects all the films (Lucas and his cutaways for example). Having many heads however provides more input, more inspiration, and the ability to remove stupid stuff that wont go over well which is probably why the OT (the Lucases and Kurtz) is still more consistent and better told and recorced than PT (George only).

However, the ST method (and current MCU method) of basically letting directors do whatever they want to add to the universe is just bad and wont work. I dont think its a surprise that recent MCU entries arnt popular and while I agree that fatigue plays a big part, another is how inconsequential and directionless every movie is. Part one was introducing and building the avengers. Part 2 was basically buikding upon the team and setting up for part 3 which was the arrival of Thanos. What is part 4 (and now part 5) actually moving toward?

I dont think having multiple directors or creators automatically equals bad since there have been works that have been successful with multiple creatives but there does need to be a vanguard of the overarching story.
 
However, the ST method (and current MCU method) of basically letting directors do whatever they want to add to the universe is just bad and won't work. I don't think its a surprise that recent MCU entries arnt popular and while I agree that fatigue plays a big part, another is how inconsequential and directionless every movie is. Part one was introducing and building the avengers. Part 2 was basically buikding upon the team and setting up for part 3 which was the arrival of Thanos. What is part 4 (and now part 5) actually moving toward?
I disagree with the notion that Phase 5 of the MCU is going nowhere, Phase 5 is basically Phase 1 except that we really don't know what the eventual goal is going to be whereas in Phase 1 we knew that it was going to lead to the Avengers. It's just too early in Phase 5 to know what it's building to except for maybe the Avengers assembling again.

As for the notion of directors adding to the universe is necessarily a bad idea, I think that it can work and brings in a certain amount of creativity to a franchise. However, there does need to be an overall guiding hand that oversees things and makes sure that various directors and writers don't
 
Anakin was out of the fight when Dooku cut off his hand. If he couldn't fight under those conditions as a young man...
Fighting is 90% mental,and where was Anakins mind.Anakin lost his mother,slaughtered an entire village,was reunited with his first “crush” before fighting Dooku.IMO all of that would be some heavy feces to deal with,he lost because psychologically he was not there.
 
I disagree with the notion that Phase 5 of the MCU is going nowhere, Phase 5 is basically Phase 1 except that we really don't know what the eventual goal is going to be whereas in Phase 1 we knew that it was going to lead to the Avengers. It's just too early in Phase 5 to know what it's building to except for maybe the Avengers assembling again.

As for the notion of directors adding to the universe is necessarily a bad idea, I think that it can work and brings in a certain amount of creativity to a franchise. However, there does need to be an overall guiding hand that oversees things and makes sure that various directors and writers don't
I don't think I agree with the comparison to Phase 1, because Phase 1 may have been the most loosely connected of them all, however they were establishing many characters, their backgrounds, motivations and even weaknesses in a way that Phase 5 isn't in my opinion.

Yes we knew the Avengers was coming, but we know they are coming again in a new guise, yet so far it doesn't seem like it is being as fully realised as it can be.

Phase 5 has the problem that the stories/over arching story, just doesn't strike me as compelling or even as high stakes as anything in the Infinity Saga.
 
I disagree with the notion that Phase 5 of the MCU is going nowhere, Phase 5 is basically Phase 1 except that we really don't know what the eventual goal is going to be whereas in Phase 1 we knew that it was going to lead to the Avengers. It's just too early in Phase 5 to know what it's building to except for maybe the Avengers assembling again.

As for the notion of directors adding to the universe is necessarily a bad idea, I think that it can work and brings in a certain amount of creativity to a franchise. However, there does need to be an overall guiding hand that oversees things and makes sure that various directors and writers don't
Dont think I said always having multiple directors is always bad. Having multiple directors is not bad and can be beneficial since you get more eyes and can avoid some bad ideas that result in a better product (OT vs PT). However, there needs to an overarching guy to monitor the story.

I don't think I agree with the comparison to Phase 1, because Phase 1 may have been the most loosely connected of them all, however they were establishing many characters, their backgrounds, motivations and even weaknesses in a way that Phase 5 isn't in my opinion.

Yes we knew the Avengers was coming, but we know they are coming again in a new guise, yet so far it doesn't seem like it is being as fully realised as it can be.

Phase 5 has the problem that the stories/over arching story, just doesn't strike me as compelling or even as high stakes as anything in the Infinity Saga.
We also have to remember that Phase 1 of the MCU is a very different beast operating in a very different environment from now. Phase 1 consisted of then unknown actors (the only known one being RDJ) and the concept of a cinematic universe not even being a thing. A possibility of an "Avengers" movie where characters from different independent films all come together in one movie was a big deal because it wasnt considered feasible at the time. So just the idea of an "Avengers" movie was a big draw.

And although this isnt the MCU's fault, now that audiences know that it can be done, the same achievement is not as impressive anymore. I guessing that Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars is going to be the next "Infinity War" tier big event to get fans invested but we arnt being drip fed anything about these movies. Even Iron man ended with the end credit teaser about the Avengers initiative with end credit teasers becoming a huge thing thanks to the MCU.

I do think in terms of impact, Fegie and the MCU have really made a huge impact on cinema and the movie viewing experience that is helped with streaming making consumption easier. However, the current MCU does seems afraid to innovate or really push boundaries (
imagine if She-Hulk made a move to have the US reject or shut down the Sokovia accords for violating their second amendment or Ant-man completely failing to defeat Kang and basically having to rush to reunite the Avengers because Kang is coming
) and we as an audience seem to be moving aimlessly in Phase 4.
 
I think one "problem" was that Phase Four was the aftermath of the first three phases. The Infinity Stones had revealed themselves after who knows how long, the enhanced beings came forward and joined together (Avengers, Guardians, etc.) to thwart their ill-use, culminating in the coming of Thanos and realization (and, ultimately, undoing) of his goal. The aimlessness of Phase 4 felt "right", in that there's going to be a lot of dazed wandering around for a bit due to what's just happened. Shell shock on an existential level. Either you just lost five years of your life and everyone you knew is now older -- or dead from other causes -- or you were just getting over half of everyone being gone when suddenly they were back and had not shared your trauma, while experiencing their own that you can't relate to.

I think my big problem was contracts and compression. RDJ and the Chrises only had so many, and anything past those was a case-by-case gamble. Already in Phase 1 we saw problems. The tonal problem of Ed as Bruce/Hulk. Yeah, it ultimately led to Mark, but at the time it didn't quite seem to land right. Then the Iron Man 2 mess. Terence being stupid and thinking he was untouchable because "they needed him", not even trying to find an actor who at least vaguely resembled him to take over the part, the same minor niggle I have with the first film repeated (I find "killing the bad guy" weak writing). I really hoped, after seeing his final battlesuit, that Vanko would end up becoming the MCU's Crimson Dynamo. I would have preferred Stane survive to beome -- even temporarily -- the nemesis he was to Tony in the comics.

Then Phase 2 got into other problems. Iron Man 3 should have been two films. There was too much story crammed into too little run-time, with too many scenes rushed and too much linking either cut or shoehorned in. I still liked it, and, where many didn't, Thor 2. The problem of compression culminated in Age of Ultron, which also should have been two films -- perhaps having Tony working on Ultron right after the Battle of New York in Iron Man 3, and calling the whole phase "The Age of Ultron", with the linking threads woven through -- Project: Insight seems like it could dovetail with the Ultron Project nicely. And I'm not sure how I feel about Ant-Man placed where it is -- at the end of the phase. After the big team movie. Or, given how I feel AoE itself should have been two films (how many moments in there do people forget even existed, or thought were from another movie?), maybe Ant-Man could have been a nice, light palate-cleanser between them.

The structure works best when the new phase starts out with the aftermath of the previous. Iron Man 3, he's still actively dealing with the trauma of the alien invasion of New York that just happened. Phase 3 starts with Civil War, and that really should have come right on the heels of the Battle of Sokovia. And, as with Phase 2, 3 suffers from compression, as well, from the end of Ragnarok/beginning of Infinity War. And, similarly, I feel the Infinity War should have been three big team films, spread out with more between. We never really felt the impact of the Snapture. We just got told two films later that five years had passed.

And that's where some of the un-helpful aimlessness of Phase 4 could have been avoided/prevented. Before losing Black Widow was a good time to go into her backstory and introduce people who would be trying to find her after the Snap was undone. Good place to introduce Shang-Chi, the Eternals, Moon Knight... Kamala Khan getting her powers, say, from the Un-Snappening would have, I feel, worked better than all of the random backstory they piled onto a character who was barely mentioned in the comics. Since they kinda borked the roll-out of the Inhumans and didn't have the terragin mist bomb over the New York metro area.

"And it's still a better love story than Twilight." That to say... I don't put Kevin Fiege on an unrealistic pedestal. He has overseen a more-consistent long-form cinematic saga than anything else I've run across, for all that it still has missteps and clinkers. I am still mad that they didn't unfridge Killmonger to show up in Wakanda Forever. Missed opportunity, there. But, overall, I have loved all the ideas and visions and takes on things that have gone through the lens of the MCU. I am far from burned out on it, even if there are some installments I am unlikely to watch again.

Star Wars... has never had a guiding vision. Early on, it was collaborative and contexts shifted as new ideas came into the mix. Because all he had were notes and notions, as George asserted more direct control over things with ROTJ and into the Prequels, he felt free to use or overwrite whatever from wherever to suit his latest hot take. And after he sold it to Disney, it got exponentially worse. Iger pushed to have a film out ASAP, and TFA got pushed out the door with no over-arching vision. Just vague notions about where the story could go. That's why I can't get too mad about TLJ. They didn't present Rian with an outline and say, "Do this." They said, "Here's the first film. Take it from there." And he did his thing and it didn't fit their plans, but since they hadn't given him any/many restrictions, whose fault, really, is it? So TROS was as much of a slapdash mess as it was due to a very preventable crisis of their own making.

Twice over, actually, because it didn't have to be a damn trilogy. We already know there was nothing mystical about it. That it was only the Star Wars Trilogy by many convergent accidents of fate. George never intentionally laid down a "Trilogy Model", as Kathleen and others in post-Disney Lucasfilm have referred to it. The story needs the room it needs, in the MCU or the GFFA. Real-world practical considerations like COVID or the death of an actor, can be worked around, if one is at all creative. Corporate convenience -- contract limitations, schedule and timeline, actors saying inconvenient things, writers'-room spitballing... These are the things that impact quality. And they are wholly a product of corporate-think.

Every time I watch a movie that had the potential to be incredible and it fell on its face, I remember that it was the product of a committee -- which Heinlein defined as "a life-form with six or more legs and no brain". From that, we get, "The dead speak! Somehow Palpatine has returned." There needs to be a voice, a keeper, a guardian of the i.p. Someone who knows the lore, listens to the ideas, and then says, "This is the direction we're going to go." Someone who understands the business side of things and can work within that to get the creative side of things to happen with internal integrity.

And if I knew how to make that happen, I'd suggest it. *lol*
 

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