Star Wars saga. Prequels and Sequels.

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greenmachines

New Member
The Lucas era came from one guy's mind and it had been written decades ago (at least some basic framework). That lent the whole franchise a feeling of realness. Like it was ancient texts about some world that was all out there existing somewhere. And it had a coherent over-arching story in some form. It didn't all stay consistent but there were some strong basics.

The Disney era broke the spell. Their new series didn't mesh with the existing story very well. (Never mind the continuity details. I'm talking about broad themes & character evolution.) In fact that first one, TFA, was the only time the ST felt like they had a plan at all.

In the Disney era SW does not feel like sacred texts anymore. It FEELS like an episodic series being written on the fly. In the back of your mind you know the studio will twist & turn things any which way to keep the movies coming. Like a mediocre Netflix TV series. Or Fast & Furious. It took the wind out of the whole franchise's sails.
Very accurate summation with the obvious backing that many involved in the sequels were successful in the industry due to their creation of long running episodic series from numerous media platforms. Series that were long running due to online fan involvement in the story writing of upcoming episodes ( think LOST or the theme of the movie about a series... Dave). Online communities voting for outcomes like that ultimately took the initial creative genius of one writer and relegated it to the trash heap while attempting to paint a picture by allowing 10 million people to all put one brush stroke each on the canvas. I hate to be so corny but it was written like the TV series LOST, in space.
 

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JBLAKE

Sr Member
I appreciate every ones individual opinions on this but in doing so know that each person has had a different individual experience. Some may have been there from the beginning of it all in the 70's, some may have been too young and living some of that joyful experience through the eyes of a loved one, some were of introduced through the PT and the rest through ( the mess of the never should have been made ) ST. I believe each instance you must feel about them purely that way because that is what you feel and not what your friends say or critics or anyone else who has an opinion on them.

There is just too much there and over so many years. For me I am a Star Wars Purist and the 3 OT were enough. Loved them all. I was there for that Amazing Original Experience. I cannot expect someone who was not there for that to care for the movie or like the movie in the way I do. Nor can a big fan of the sequel trilogy think I should care about it let alone acknowledge it which I personally do not. For so many reasons and that is the way it should be.

I wonder how many of the Fans that were there, young or old in the 70's appreciate the PT and or the ST. I thought the PT was good but it completely lost me in a way with all of the CG....way too much...felt like a video game and not Real Practical which made the Original Trilogy feel Real and like it really is or was a long time ago in a galaxy far far away.

The closest thing to a Real Star Wars Movie feel for me recently was Rogue One, Loved it....that is what makes Star Wars to me, it had everything, including interesting characters, which the ST had not a single one I cared about.

To me the ST was a Disgrace and a Huge Slap in the face to the Original Trilogy in every way. Felt bad for the actors because they tried, to me they gave them nothing interesting to build their characters, the frail ground work may have been there but still no story what so ever and the character and star ship design was so un star wars in every way it was shocking they could use the star wars name. I could go on and on.

For me the biggest reason I do not now nor have ever acknowledged the disney ST as being True Star Wars movies is because it is not George Lucas Story. Simple and easy. Now if George Lucas wrote those 3 as they are now I would have been very disappointed but at least it would be True Star Wars...Thankfully it is Not. I think Mark Hamill put it best when he called disney Luke Skywalker, Jake Skywalker.

Lastly if you love one trilogy if you love 2 of the trilogy or even if you love them all together I think that is fantastic for you who ever you are. The Point is to enjoy it and hopefully it makes you happy or gives you a fond memory, and forget what someone else feels about it you may disagree with.
 

ScourgiousJinx

Well-Known Member
Sooo... am I to understand that there are some who didn't enjoy the ST??? No way. :oops:

Not that I disagree at all, its not my favorite thing either. Just funny that the topic keeps being brought up to be further beaten to death even though so many were extremely vocal about being fed up with talking/reading about it. Carry on.
 

Spyhunter2k

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I don't think it's beating a dead horse to talk about the ST, as long as it's not a continuous conversation. After time passes folks' opinions evolve or become clearer to even themselves.

I think we should have an annual "Current Reflections on Star Wars" thread where we dust off our most recently expressed opinion of the PT and ST, revisit our views with the benefit of another year's distance, and see where we're at. But I have no desire to be active in a continuous thread featuring an uninterrupted debate of the ST. It wears me out.

So I gave an opinion earlier in the thread. I'll weigh in again once more time passes, should my view change.

So not beating a dead horse per se, but more of an approach where we open the tomb and ruminate over the bones.
 

ScourgiousJinx

Well-Known Member
I'm all for giving opinions. Others can also comment on what we say as that is part of free speech as well.

It's repeating the same or very similar ideas over and over again after being vocal about being fed up with the topic that doesn't make sense. If that's not what you did, what I wrote doesn't apply.
 
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yaris

Sr Member
I always find it quiet humorous how people get bent out of shape about the Star Wars films. I saw A New Hope 10 times when I was 12 years old back in '77 and I believe most people don't realise that ALL of these films are supposed to be goofy, funny, cringworthy, exiting, but fundamentally entertaining, some of the stuff GL left out of ANH made it better, but at the end of the day they are simple amusment rides.

Most folks simply read too much into them like they're high art.

I love them as much as the next fan, some of them are excellent, some very ordinary, but at the end of the day, it's pure escapism....science fiction for sure....they're all good and bad....;)
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
I always find it quiet humorous how people get bent out of shape about the Star Wars films. I saw A New Hope 10 times when I was 12 years old back in '77 and I believe most people don't realise that ALL of these films are supposed to be goofy, funny, cringworthy, exiting, but fundamentally entertaining, some of the stuff GL left out of ANH made it better, but at the end of the day they are simple amusment rides.

Most folks simply read too much into them like they're high art.

I love them as much as the next fan, some of them are excellent, some very ordinary, but at the end of the day, it's pure escapism....science fiction for sure....they're all good and bad....;)

I do think part of how people treat Star Wars is based on when they saw them tbh.

i do think the OT was a work of art though because it had a unique vision and story although I think dividing it over 3 films affected the perception of certain characters.

Despite being sci-fi, OT went with a “used” look with Lucas having dirty equipment to show that things were “used” in the universe in contrast to the everything is shiny and chrome look of other Sci-Fi. Add the fact that the story is a family drama with themes following familial relationships, love, and religion as opposed to more theoretical concepts and you have the first “American fairy tale” that is Star Wars. Its probably why star wars is still so beloved by fans despite the years passed and why people feel very strongly about it, at least in the US.

Given that it is a typical good vs evil storyline of good triumphing over ultimate evil, I can see why many people hated PT. PT basically depicts Anakin/Vader as kind of a loser, a whiny brat with issues as opposed to the cool badass we want him to be. Lucas apparently always had this vision in mind, saying that Vader is kind of pathetic of you watch the OT as one movie since he goes from imposing figure to essentially an old man who cant even breathe on his own. I do think making this more apparent in PT is what turned alot of fans off in the US given that the majoroty of criticism is directed at Anakin.

i do think Lucas made some major faux paus in the PT. Although thematically it makes sense for C3PO and R2D2 to be in every movie as the Rosencrantz and Guilderstern of the series (or the Matashichi and Tahei although I think they fit less since they are the focal points in HF), having everyone connected was unnecessary. We didnt need to see young Fett or young Greedo. There was also too much focus on these winks and nods and not enough on actually developing the relationships between the main characters.

PT is kind of enjoyable if you delve into Star Wars lore and fan theory connects or interpretations but as objective movies, they are pretty bad and disjointed. The transition from 2 to 3 is pretty bad given that Grievous comes out of nowhere (assuming you didnt watch the cartoon which many movie viewers probably didnt).
 

Solo4114

Master Member
I'm not a fan of the PT as films. I'm a fan of them as grounds from which to mine ideas and as backdrops to the rest of the Star Wars universe. Mostly that's due to the work of the Clone Wars cartoon.

The ST...the ST works in the moment, but more as a rollercoaster ride. It's not coherent, and JJ's style of filmmaking is something I just generally dislike. I think he largely disdains narrative and character, and is more interested in crafting moments and an overall vibe. He's an amazing rollercoaster engineer, but I don't really enjoy his stories as stories. I enjoy them as vibes, as rides, as moments. But they feel like they left a TON on the cutting room floor or in notes, or that there ought to be a ton of that stuff, except there maybe isn't.

I think that's a big, big part of why the ST ends up feeling kinda forgettable in many respects.

I still love TLJ, though. I think it's an amazing film, but one that is a record scratch when sandwiched in between the two JJ films. But then, even if JJ had done the 2nd film, I'd have felt like the ST probably was just all kinda ho-hum, with no great standouts.

With TFA, I think the aspects people like are (1) the return to the overall "vibe" of Star Wars (Which it really does do well), and (2) the potential story that might follow or was hinted at. This is typical of "mystery box" storytelling, where the most interesting thing is the speculation you develop on your own based on this or that breadcrumb from the film.

But that's not a story. That's a breadcrumb. YOU made the story that followed after. And, that approach almost never, ever pays off, the same way it really kinda didn't in RoS. It was, you know, good -- in the moment -- but once I had time to reflect on it, that "good" vibe just kinda fell apart. It's not bad, necessarily. It's just...not well done. Very patchy. And very, very, very rote. It felt like stuff happened because "That's what happens in a Star Wars movie," not because it flowed from the narrative or the characters. Or it happened because "that moment is really cool" and they kind of backed the story into how to get to that moment.

I was always against trying to do a film with the OT cast, too. I felt like it'd hamper them way too much. I get why they did it from a business perspective, and I forgive that choice, but that choice forced a bunch of other choices. I also wish that the ST hadn't been a trilogy because the story needed waaaay more time to flesh out. But that ship's sailed.

I'm still digging the other stuff though. The Mandalorian is great, I really enjoyed both Solo and Rogue One and would watch a whole series of films/shows about Solo's adventures before joining the Rebellion (and I expected to loathe that film).

Going forward, I'd say that what Star Wars really needs is a clear narrative guiding hand. Someone with an overall vision. Kevin Feige's success in running Marvel has been, I think, his ability to generally maintain a vision overall while giving directors and storytellers freedom to craft their own stories. They need someone like that for Star Wars.
 

Paul Andrew

Sr Member
At this point I can take the PT for what it is. The movies aren't fine cinema, but they paved the way for lots of good content to come.
The ST was real up and down for me. TFA hit the vibe, TLJ opened things up in a way that could have gone anywhere in TRoS but they chose to circle round and go right up their own ass instead of moving anywhere forward. Eventually I'll stop rewriting it in my head, but I don't think JJ has any business being near Star Wars again.

Solo was fun, and I think R1 is far and away the best of the films since the Disney purchase, even better than the PT frankly.

Here's hoping whatever comes next on film goes in a new direction.
 

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CT1138

Sr Member
Sooo... am I to understand that there are some who didn't enjoy the ST??? No way. :oops:

Not that I disagree at all, its not my favorite thing either. Just funny that the topic keeps being brought up to be further beaten to death even though so many were extremely vocal about being fed up with talking/reading about it. Carry on.
Star Wars fans will continue to beat to death, resurrect, and the beat to death again, the ST. That is, until another Star Wars trilogy comes along to become the new whipping post. At that point, the ST will become a beloved moment of nostalgia that was underappreciated in its time, just like the PT.
 

Sluis Van Shipyards

Legendary Member
I don't know, I'm hoping if we beat the ST hard enough it won't get back up. :lol: ;)
m7gmOZl.gif
 

Axlotl

Master Member
I always find it quiet humorous how people get bent out of shape about the Star Wars films. I saw A New Hope 10 times when I was 12 years old back in '77 and I believe most people don't realise that ALL of these films are supposed to be goofy, funny, cringworthy, exiting, but fundamentally entertaining, some of the stuff GL left out of ANH made it better, but at the end of the day they are simple amusment rides.

Most folks simply read too much into them like they're high art.

I love them as much as the next fan, some of them are excellent, some very ordinary, but at the end of the day, it's pure escapism....science fiction for sure....they're all good and bad....;)
 

ID10T

Sr Member
That was a good video.

And reminds me of a detail of the prequels that REALLY rubbed me the wrong way:

When Qui-Gon was killed, he didn’t fade away like ObI-Wan and Yoda.

WHY?
 

yaris

Sr Member
That was a good video.

And reminds me of a detail of the prequels that REALLY rubbed me the wrong way:

When Qui-Gon was killed, he didn’t fade away like ObI-Wan and Yoda.

WHY?
Because George forgot to do it......there's an interview with him where he talks about it...and flips it off like it wasn't that important.
 

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Sluis Van Shipyards

Legendary Member
I never read that he forgot to do it. That's one of the things I liked though. I like that Qui-Gon was going out and learning from other Force sects which the other Jedi might ignore or treat as irrelevant because of their dogma. He doesn't figure it out all the way, but teaches Yoda and Obi-Wan to use the full power.
 

HeartBlade

Sr Member
We’ve only seen two jedi die by fading away (and one more in a self-sacrifice magic way than actually dying) so i didnt think Qui Gon laying there was that odd tbh.

The canon thing I sort of agree with in that not everything has to be completely static and tied to the past since that stifles innovation but there needs to be an explanation or some cause and effect to explain the change. One example for me is the ST’s force dyad comes out of nowhere and conflicts with the concept of the one (a single ultimate being to balance the force). There is no reason given for why the force switched from a single locus of control to this balance of two.

second, newly added stuff should be careful to not “break” the universe. The dyad honestly breaks any tension the ST could have because it was a rubber band that automatically made Rey and Ben equals in strength. In a sense, no matter how much or how little one trained relative to another, they would be “equal” and given that this is a Disney film and Star Wars, good (Rey) is going to win at the end.

its also why im surprised there is so much praise for TLJ. It had new ideas but they didnt fit and new isnt always better. The ending also arguably basically cemented what the last movie was going to be, that they would rebuild the rebellion and Rey would face now “Emperor” Kylo Ren, they fight and she wins (aka RotJ). Given that she has won against him twice before and its the last movie, the tension was gone with the only question being will Ben redeem and die or redeem and live. Palps was only a twist because he was unknown till then.
 

Usagi Pilgrim

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I thought it had been completely established that Qui Gon was the very first Jedi to learn how to maintain his identity after death. He told Yoda, & then taught Obi Wan & Yoda while they were in exile.

During that time of training, they discovered together how to maintain a physical presence. When Vader redeemed himself, right before death, Obi Wan came to him & taught it to him. That's why in ROTJ, it was only the 3 who appeared to Luke, & then of course Luke & Leia learned after that.


Bottom line, he didn't disappear because her didn't know how at the time.
 

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