Rebels Freddie Prinze Jr. Star Wars rant

Holy smokes—8 pages and 141 posts and this thread is still going.

Oh look what you have done Freddie...look at what you have done...

The simplistic fun, that once was, is slowly being sucked out of “Star Wars”.
 
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To be clear, I don't have any problem with Rey as of TFA. I thought she was a potentially interesting character. It's just that in TLJ she was given everything with no reason for her quick growth. Heck, even in Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight, Kyle Katarn, who was Force sensitive, had to go to the Valley of the Jedi to super charge his Force powers. That was pretty cheesy, BUT it made some sense and at least was some kind of explanation for why he could use all the Force powers so quickly. Rey just touched a lightsaber and maybe had a nap on the Falcon before she was a fully trained Jedi Knight.
 
Not sure how I gamified the force. I totally understand that through the force, anything is possible. Vader claimed that even destroying a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the force. However, it doesn’t make sense that a teenager who has learned about the force for a year at best suddenly has more proficiency than others who have been aware of the force and have witnessed their power their entire lives.

And yes, based on the reveal in 8, the lightsaber scene in 7 makes no sense because it contradicts what was built up in 7. Rey’s powers are a mystery, that she has the power to beat Kylo Ren who is a skywalker and has training is a huge mystery. It is why the reveal in 8 that she is “nobody” not only a let down but bad writing. And if the leaks are true, her lineage reveal would be a retcon of 8 and is thus also bad writing because it completely contradicts the themes of 8.

It’s implied that Yoda has been training Luke during his entire stay on Dagobah. We don’t need to see every lesson. If Luke shows new powers after training, we as the viewer can infer he learned that through training. Film is a medium where every moment is important so Lucas skipped through telepathy 101.

This doesn’t apply for Rey though since it’s clear in TLJ that Luke doesn’t want to train Rey. She does her own thing after the intro lesson and leaves before Luke changes his mind to train her. We can infer that she will get stronger because she will read the Jedi texts during the interim of 8 to 9 but her getting stronger between 7 to 8 doesn’t make sense.
 
To put the power depiction into context, the only character I can think of who has shown the force proficiency in the force Rey has is Starkiller from the force unleashed games.


First, this is a video game where being OP is part of the fun. Rules are different from movies (and thus why a lot of video game movies fail imo)

Second, this is non-canon so anything goes in a way (Starkiller is a Marty Sue)

Third, even with all this, Starkiller was trained since birth in the force, first by his dad and then by Vader. Even then he needs further mentoring before he moves the star destroyer.

Rey’s feat of moving multiple large boulders is arguably less impressive than this but still seems as ridiculous (unless you want to argue that the scene in TLJ where she lifts multiple tiny pebbles during the first lesson was foreshadowing this scene)
 
HeartBlade said:
Not sure how I gamified the force. I totally understand that through the force, anything is possible. Vader claimed that even destroying a planet is insignificant compared to the power of the force. However, it doesn’t make sense that a teenager who has learned about the force for a year at best suddenly has more proficiency than others who have been aware of the force and have witnessed their power their entire lives.

And yes, based on the reveal in 8, the lightsaber scene in 7 makes no sense because it contradicts what was built up in 7. Rey’s powers are a mystery, that she has the power to beat Kylo Ren who is a skywalker and has training is a huge mystery. It is why the reveal in 8 that she's is “nobody” not only a let down but bad writing. And if the leaks are true, her lineage reveal would be a retcon of 8 and is thus also bad writing because it completely contradicts the themes of 8.

It’s implied that Yoda has been training Luke during his entire stay on Dagobah. We don’t need to see every lesson. If Luke shows new powers after training, we as the viewer can infer he learned that through training. Film is a medium where every moment is important so Lucas skipped through telepathy 101.

This doesn’t apply for Rey though since it’s clear in TLJ that Luke doesn’t want to train Rey. She does her own thing after the intro lesson and leaves before Luke changes his mind to train her. We can infer that she will get stronger because she will read the Jedi texts during the interim of 8 to 9 but her getting stronger between 7 to 8 doesn’t make sense.
Click to expand...
HeartBlade said:
To put the power depiction into context, the only character I can think of who has shown the force proficiency in the force Rey has is Starkiller from the force unleashed games.


First, this is a video game where being OP is part of the fun. Rules are different from movies (and thus why a lot of video game movies fail imo)

Second, this is non-canon so anything goes in a way (Starkiller is a Marty Sue)

Third, even with all this, Starkiller was trained since birth in the force, first by his dad and then by Vader. Even then he needs further mentoring before he moves the star destroyer.

Rey’s feat of moving multiple large boulders is arguably less impressive than this but still seems as ridiculous (unless you want to argue that the scene in TLJ where she lifts multiple tiny pebbles during the first lesson was foreshadowing this scene)
Click to expand...


The Force isn't like some sort of RPG game. There aren't power levels. There is no 'ooh I've got telekinesis level 1, I can move my lightsaber. Now I'm level 2 I can pick up a person now! Oh boy, I'm level 3 I can move a starfighter! I'm at level 4 telekinesis, I can move a Star Destroyer!' The Force doesn't work like that. Telekinesis is telekinesis. You either got it or you don't. You either do it or you don't. Remember the only difference between a 10 pound stone and 22,000 pound X-wing is the one that Luke has in his head. To the Force, there is no difference. Just remember when Luke fails to lift his X-wing, does Yoda tell him 'Hmm, not strong enough you are. More time and training need you.' Does he say that? Nope. He tells him "size matters not." Which by the way is what Kota tells Starkiller. "...you need to pull it into the cannon." "What!? You're insane, it's massive!" "You're a Jedi boy, size means nothing to you..."

And again who said you ever NEEDED training. I mean what does Obi-Wan tell Luke? "This time, let go your conscious self and act on instinct."

Rey being a nobody doesn't affect her connection to the Force. The Skywalker family was nobodies before the miraculous birth of Anakin.

And remember to, that the cosmic Force has had an awakening, I'm sure this plays into Rey's rapidly developed connection. I'd guess that the Force laying dormant after the events of ROTJ is probably the reason why Rey didn't start to exhibit the tell-tell signs of a Force-sensitive, like performing telekinesis at a young age and such.
 
Every Jedi and Sith in Star Wars history needed training. Why does Rey get a pass from that? What makes her so special that she is exempt from the rules that have dictated every move of the Force using characters in the franchise?

Before you quote George Lucas on the nature of the Force, just remember he didn't the write these scripts so his input is irrelevant.

I also understand the explanation that the film's give with the Force awakening and all that crap but I'm arguing that it's a lazy explanation.

So unless you have a more compelling argument to back up the ideas these new movies present, I just don't buy it.

I feel they contradict what came before them and in fact detract from the far superior early films by changing the meaning of the original themes to fit a poorly written narrative and sell tickets rather than tell a worthy story.

Then people like Freddie come along and accuse people like me of being sexist for not liking the changes. To my knowledge he has never once made the distinction between fans like me and the toxic creeps who are actually sexist, so I take offense at that.
 
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Leveling up the force? So there's no difference in ability once you feel it? It's either on or off, and everything is not only possible but obtainable once you feel the force?

Telekinesis is telekinesis, sure. But each individual's understanding and ability to tap in to is different. If that weren't the case, Starkiller wouldn't need Kota's prompt, and Luke would have effortlessly lifted his x-wing first try.

Luke: "I feel the force"
Kenobi: "but you cannot control it"

There is certainly need for guidance. You said it yourself - Obi Wan tells Luke to act on instinct. He had to tell him this - it wasn't obvious or apparent. Luke had questions "with the blast shield down, I can't even see - how am I supposed to fight?" - "You mean it controls your actions?"

And many more. Luckily, he had access to beings that had experience and knowledge of how the force works to answer them.

As soon as you introduce a character that becomes force aware, and needs no instructions about how to wield it - you're going against the grain of what's been established thus far. This is why Rey is problematic. Aside from two or three sentences from Maz, she's completely self realized in the force. For me - this requires an answer as to why she's different. Was she trained at a young age, then somehow lost access to those memories but still retained get knowledge of self? Is there a lineage link that would help it make sense? Is she a clone? Something else?

Or, she's "just Rey", and feels the force. For me, that answer is severely lacking - in both context to Star Wars and as a character of major influence after 2 out acts in a story.

The Jedi and sith both have rich history of master/apprentice relationships. So, basically, the fabric of Star Wars says you need training and guidance to effectively wield the force (and to not fall to the dark side).

"I want to learn the ways of the force..."
Spoke by son of the chosen one. He had the force, yet needed to be taught to learn to wield it. His shot on the death star made successful with guidance of Obi-wan (and a timely return of Han).

(Heck, even Rey needed it in TFA. The bit Maz told her about being at peacee at feeling it - she called upon during her battle with Kylo. At least that's what I think is inferred. Sad that they dropped the ball there. Maz would have been a great Yoda for Rey. )

I think you're making a reach with Cosmic force "awakening". It's never stated that the force ever layed dormant after ROTJ. (Luke was running around the galaxy at the time) I don't think cosmic force is ever even mentioned on screen.
 
If hating a poorly written female character is sexist then what is hating a poorly written male character is???

The fact is Ruin Johnson took Reys importance to the trilogy and build up with open ended questions from TFA, threw it in the trash and made her a whinny no good for nothing character who is a nobody with free magical force powers that required no thought or training or failure on using the force. Basically she now is just a being with force ability. The story could stand on its own with out her at this point.

She whines to Luke how the Resistance needs him and then lifts rocks. It's not like Poe and the rest could have figured it out on their own to escape.

I hope JJ can give her something important to tye story in TROS.
 
Ron said:
Joek3rr my man,... Obi-Wan teaching him that concept IS the training.
Click to expand...

You know what I mean. Obi-Wan isn't sitting Luke on the floor and telling him. 'I'm going to teach you how to lift that pebble. Then in a year or so you'll be able to move your lightsaber. In another year a large stone. And then in 5 or so years, you might be able to lift 22,000 pound ship.'
 
That still doesn't mean that once you have access to the Force that you are suddenly a master of it. Remember the Jedi order had ranks for a reason. So yes you can in fact "level up" like in the games. Some were more proficient than others and no one learned about this mysterious Force in a vacuum.

Except Rey. Which is why so many of us take issue with her character.
 
Psab keel said:
That still doesn't mean that once you have access to the Force that you are suddenly a master of it. Remember the Jedi order had ranks for a reason. So yes you can in fact "level up" like in the games. Some were more proficient than others and no one learned about this mysterious Force in a vacuum.

Except Rey. Which is why so many of us take issue with her character.
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Agreed,and in AOTC Dooku said to Yoda “It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the force...but by our skills with a lightsaber.” In ROTS Anakin talking to Dooku,”My powers have doubled since the last time we met..Count”.
 
Rey is the exception to the rule,Rey is OP because of KK agenda.That and she is in Disney’s SW,not GL SW.I like Rey and have nothing against her or against cutting the crust off a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.And as far as FPJ goes he can slob on bob.
 
The fact that there is a massive Jedi Temple on Coruscant, not to mention other planets, shows you that you NEED training to fully use the Force. Anakin could use it to some extent as a kid because he was using it, without knowing it, while podracing. It's not canon, but I think in one of the books (Luke or Obi Wan) said that if you aren't trained you might just be more lucky or be better athletically.
 
jhazard said:
Leveling up the force? So there's no difference in ability once you feel it? It's either on or off, and everything is not only possible but obtainable once you feel the force?

Telekinesis is telekinesis, sure. But each individual's understanding and ability to tap in to is different. If that weren't the case, Starkiller wouldn't need Kota's prompt, and Luke would have effortlessly lifted his x-wing first try.

Luke: "I feel the force"
Kenobi: "but you cannot control it"

There is certainly need for guidance. You said it yourself - Obi Wan tells Luke to act on instinct. He had to tell him this - it wasn't obvious or apparent. Luke had questions "with the blast shield down, I can't even see - how am I supposed to fight?" - "You mean it controls your actions?"

And many more. Luckily, he had access to beings that had experience and knowledge of how the force works to answer them.

As soon as you introduce a character that becomes force aware, and needs no instructions about how to wield it - you're going against the grain of what's been established thus far. This is why Rey is problematic. Aside from two or three sentences from Maz, she's completely self realized in the force. For me - this requires an answer as to why she's different. Was she trained at a young age, then somehow lost access to those memories but still retained get knowledge of self? Is there a lineage link that would help it make sense? Is she a clone? Something else?

Or, she's "just Rey", and feels the force. For me, that answer is severely lacking - in both context to Star Wars and as a character of major influence after 2 out acts in a story.

The Jedi and sith both have rich history of master/apprentice relationships. So, basically, the fabric of Star Wars says you need training and guidance to effectively wield the force (and to not fall to the dark side).

"I want to learn the ways of the force..."
Spoke by son of the chosen one. He had the force, yet needed to be taught to learn to wield it. His shot on the death star made successful with guidance of Obi-wan (and a timely return of Han).

(Heck, even Rey needed it in TFA. The bit Maz told her about being at peacee at feeling it - she called upon during her battle with Kylo. At least that's what I think is inferred. Sad that they dropped the ball there. Maz would have been a great Yoda for Rey. )

I think you're making a reach with Cosmic force "awakening". It's never stated that the force ever layed dormant after ROTJ. (Luke was running around the galaxy at the time) I don't think cosmic force is ever even mentioned on screen.
Click to expand...

This is how I'm seeing it. Obi-Wan is trying to get Luke to get that first connection with the Force. Problematic, considering he's 19. When most Jedi have already had that moment at a much younger age. These younglings have already had that, and are batting aside bolts, without seeing with ease.
jedi-youngling_0ee1eee6.jpg

So it's really unfair to compare Luke to Rey. In my opinion Rey is already lightyears ahead of Luke, and that's before she comes in contact with the Skywalker saber.

Those two lines of dialouge from ESB bring up something else. It's mentioned over and over in TFA, that Rey is powerful, yet untrained. And that's she's just learning to control her power. So I'd say what she does isn't completly out there. Now had she lifted a couple tons of rocks, while dueling Ben, and put a Force field to deflect blaster bolts, all at the same time. I would have cried fowl.

The Cosmic Force is never mentioned directly(the other half, the Living Force is). But Snoke says there's been an awakening, and it's not Rey, as she hasn't come in contact with the Lightsaber. It's the Force. Heck the title of the film is The Force Awakens. So if the Force is awakening, that means it was resting, sleeping, dormant, or what have you.
 
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