New P1 Cannon Build...completed

[Honus1]

Gene,

I did speak with Carl today about backpacks and cannons being shipped and I was wrong. Two backpacks were shipped in April and one went to Damon but the other did not go to you. For this I sincerely apologise. I had always been under the impression since last year that you had received one since it was shipped to your place. Again I am sorry for this misunderstanding on my part.

When I spoke with Carl over the last couple of nights he told me you guys had met up in November but he had absolutely no idea whatsoever that you were making a cannon/backpack. Given how upset he was when he called me to tell me about your project with Gary and how he felt he was being stabbed in the back the only logical conclusion is that he had absolutely no idea. He seemed genuinely shocked to me. My question in the above post was to the ligitimacy of giving Carl's work as a reference to be used in making a product to fulfil a market need and how it would affect your friendship with him. It wasn't about asking permission or getting approval- Carl isn't the Godfather of Predator cannons. Given that this project was originally posted here in December I had always assumed Carl knew about it. When Gary sent me the first pics in December I told him how I thought it was amazing work (as is the spear.) Gary also told me you were casting it. Did I run off and tell Carl? Of course not. I always assumed since you guys were close he knew all about it. Apparantly from your above post you felt he knew about it as well.

So what remains is either: 1) You guys did speak about it in November and Carl was fully aware of your intentions to fulfill a market need, or  2) You didn't speak about it and chose to jeapordize a friendship with him. In the second case you had to have known how upset he would get over this.

I don't believe anyone has an exclusive right to manufacture these items. I told Carl the other night that if you cannot deliver your product someone else will- that is the nature of business and people just won't wait forever. You're not doing anything wrong by providing a product that is desperately wanted by many. I certainly don't think this is a matter of recasting and I have said as much as well as having praised Gary's work- he is an outstanding craftsman.

 

[Art Andrews]

Sigh... hate messes like this and hate being drug into them.

Let me see if I understand a few things.  Honus, you and ScottAS WERE of the opinon that these pieces included recast elements from Carl's canon, but now no longer maintain that position.  Is that correct?  You maintain that Carl's cannon was loosely used for overall size/scale reference, correct?

If both of these statements are correct then there is nothing to be done here.  While it is generally frowned upon to use another member's work as reference for your own, if you put your work out there, it is going to happen.  We take a pretty strong stance against direct recasting but due to the slippery nature of using someone else's work as a reference piece, there is really nothing to be done about that.

In regard to the "backstabbing" and question about future friendship, from a site level, this is all a personal matter between Carl and the other parties involved and is not something we are going to comment on.  I know Carl is very upset about the whole situation, but as has been said, when there is a demand in the market, someone will fill it.  It is just sad that it seems it will be at the cost of a friendship, but again, that is not a site-level issue.
 

 

[Honus1]

Art,

When Carl called me on Sunday and asked me to weigh in on this debacle we discussed the recasting issue and the idea that detail parts of his cannon could have been snap molded and placed on Gary's cannon was discussed as there were no progress photos from the basic cannon shape to the finished article. I told Carl that I had been working with Gary over the last few months and I did not believe that Gary would ever do such a thing- I do not believe it is in his character to do so. I also told Carl I wanted to speak with Gary before I gave my opinion. After lengthy discussions with both Gary and Carl concerning the cannon details I told Carl that Gary confirmed the cannon to be entirely 100% of his own work and it did not contain any cast pieces from Carl's cannon. Gary said he was given photos of the cannon for reference as well as an overall length dimension. On this matter I posted the opinion that recasting was not an issue in this case and on this matter Carl and I have agreed to disagree.

With regard to the issue of friendship and "backstabbing" my point that I wanted to impress was I really wished Carl and Gene could have worked something out. Carl told me he had absolutely no idea of this venture and Gene says he told him all about it- so they are at an impass. And I think that's really unfortunate. Both you guys do fantastic work. Last year you guys pulled off something really incredible and were on top of the world. I just thought this place was more than about selling a few backpacks or cannons or whatever. I thought friendship and comeraderie meant more than that. I've seen this situation happen so many times and it's a real shame that it's happening again.

I'll post this quote from Carl about Jamie's suit up:

"Friday was the day Gene was driving up to meet us in my hotel room. As the day wore on, Gene's arrival got later and later as he was still working on the suit. I broke the news to everyone that it was going to be an all-nighter to get that suit finished for 10:00 a.m. Sat morning. No one complained. I fired up the coffee pot, drank some Red Bull, and we went to work. Glen & Emily put together the slideshow that accompanied the presentation that morning, Gene and I did a bunch of things, Shawn went to work fixing the backpack, and there was Jamie----sitting in the middle of it all with a Cheshire cat grin, marveling at us working like bees in a hive until we were finally able to do the test-fitting. There we were all working together, sharing laughs and gettin' it done. For me, THAT was the highlight of the whole trip. A bunch of us pred-heads in room 318 at the Ramada Inn, up till 4:30 a.m……. I wouldn't trade it for the world."

Doesn't that mean anything? Is it really worth throwing that moment away along with a friendship? Are we here for moments like that above or are we here to turn this into a marketplace? I get that people want cool props and costumes and people sell their wares to support their hobby. I do it too. But over the years it seems to me that as people get better and better at making props and costumes there is a subsequent increase in the number of people that fight about it and burn their friendships over it as soon as it involves making money. I suppose that's the nature of the beast but it's really disheartening.

The key to all of this is communication. Carl and I certainly have differing opinions on many things and have had some rather epic arguments but we've always been able to come to an understanding and have remained good friends. The friendships that you have to fight for are often the most lasting and fulfilling. The rules for good communication are simple-

1) Be a good listener. Listening is a lot more difficult than speaking. You learn a heck of a lot more by listening rather than speaking.

2) What you say is not always what the other person hears. People misinterpret things all the time. Don't immediately assume your message is getting through loud and clear. Try to make sure the other person understands what you're saying.

3) If something is unclear then poltely ask for clarification. Sometimes you hear something that may not immediately make sense and then act on it and later find out the person you were speaking with meant something entirely different.

So talk to your friends, especially when getting involved with selling your wares. If you think that prop you are making available for sale is going to piss off a friend of yours because they did all the research and you now feel you can do it better then guess what- it probably is. You may feel completely justified in your actions and that's fine. But take into consideration how it's going to make your friend feel. No amount of money made or accolades gained is going to be worth that friendship.

Sorry to be so long winded in this discussion but situations like this really grind my gears. Everyone loses.

I do really hope Gene and Carl call each other and somehow manage to work it out.


Jerome

 

[carlart]

seahunterr, on 20 Jan 2014 - 21:22, said:

In the armor/weapons section I recently posted in completion of a Predator 1 Cannon.  Gary did an outstanding job making a replica to the original cannon using screen and prop photos.  I supplied some of the small parts for him to add once it was shaped.
My intention was to try to stay as close to the original movie used as possible, using the model kit parts.  In an attempt to save some money, time and use available resources,  some of the model kit parts were copied from Carl and Scotts cannon.  The idea was they are model kit parts, not original sculpts so it's free game.  Wrong.
    These parts were all 3d modeled and modified by Scott and Carl, so they were not original kit parts.  Once that was brought to my attention I spoke with Gary and we agreed to scrap this, remove the parts and replace with the original kit parts.  Our intention with this project was to make it our own prop, as close to screen used as possible, not a copy from someone else.
     I have talked with Carl and expressed how sorry I am for this insurrection and that he can be assured it was not our intention.  It was good to talk one on one, and clear things up.  This is still a place where friendships endure even when tested, and the common interest is the community of fans, not selling props.  I have made many long lasting friendships here and that outweighs anything else I have made.  Sorry for the unnecessary drama and hopefully this shows others not to make the same mistakes.

Gene

I want to thank Gene for his honesty in admitting to what I, and others already knew to be true - about details being molded directly off my work. Not to belabor the point already made, but communication could have easily prevented this. There's been a couple of sleepless nights over this, not only because someone close did this, but because the P1 cannon and backpack have become my "signature pieces" as some of you have watched these things take shape on these pages for several years. A long time indeed, but it took that long to get the details as screen accurate as possible. The necessary reference photos did not surface until the end of the project which forced me to tear down the backpack sculpt a couple of times and start over, all in the name of getting those items just right. There's a reason why the cannon is designated 3rd generation. Just because it was built and printed out as a 100% digital file doesn't mean it came together in 5 minutes in a CAD program. Now maybe some of you have a better understanding of why after all those blood, sweat, and tears - that these details being lifted from one, and more than likely the other piece and placed onto their own--- by a friend-- hurt worse than seeing them being knocked off from a recaster. 
 
I know that some day my P1 backpack and cannon will be recasted, and that someone else will no doubt want to make their own, the difference here being that a person whose friendship I value, was involved in this. I am gratified that so many people like my work, and I wish that I could oblige all the people who desire it, but the logistics haven't been there of late. The last thing I wanted to become is another sought after artist who in the end is the victim of his own success such as DB and others. Honestly, I never even had a shop until now to work in other than a closet. Its easier to thank people for their interest and ask for their long standing patience as I put things in motion to remedy my shortcomings, rather than get roped into promising things I can't deliver. 
 
Unfortunately, some people think there's a pile of these things sitting in a room, ready to be shipped just because "they want one". And if their demands for instant gratification aren't satisfied immediately, then anything is justified, including any aspersions they want to cast. I know why Gene did what he did, and I am in no way putting him in this camp of people, because he knows what it's like. Fortunately for him, he has a lot more free time than I do, and saw a way to fulfill a perceived need, in lieu of my delays. Had we talked, he would have known that that situation is about to turn around. 
 
I remember back in the day when somebody needed something they were referred to fellow members who had already produced something. Now, things are different. I share in Jerome's, Gene's and Scott's lament that this place used to be about how to make something rather than acquire it. Not everyone is born a great artist, it takes work, I know. While I'm gratified to receive compliments from people, including Hollywood, I know my early stuff wouldn't get a second look. So let this thread be a lesson to you guys, try making your own stuff - the right way, and keep the lines of communication open with each other, for some day you may be able to forge friendships like Gene and I and collaborate on projects. 
 
Lastly, I hope to see more of Gary's work (other than you know what   ) - like Gene and I, he's one of the old guard who has done some exceptional work who has come back into prop making. I hope this incident doesn't dissuade him from contributing more on the Lair. Speaking of which, I'm hoping I can as well, as soon as a little "glitch" in my membership gets fixed. A special thank you to Art for his input and making it possible for me to post an acceptance of Gene's apology. I'm glad our friendship is intact, and look forward to more "adventures" with him. Going forward, I'll be around, you know where to find me --- my days of being underground are over.
 
Thanks,
Carl

 

[seahunterr]

Outstanding! Let's keep making this place what it was intended, somewhere we can share our interest in this iconic and amazing creature!

 

[AlphaTech686]

Wow this was a crazy read. Glad that is sorted out.

 

[Shataan]

We now have a Vers. II P1 Cannon that blows our 1st P1 Cannon away. And yes this debacle is now considered to be over.