Luke ROTJ V2 lightsaber

MastahBlastah said:
Guys ... I think I may have ID'd the chunk!

www.therpf.com

Universal Studios Griff Helment BTTF

I’ve had this in my collection for many years and now it’s time to let it go. It’s in great condition for its age and the elastic is not stretched out. $250 including shipping in the continental US. I accept PayPal as Goods & Services. Please PM me with any questions.
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Dammit! Cat's out of the bag.
 
Anakin Starkiller said:
I think the problem is, until Brandon reveals the internals of the piece, we're just working on conjecture here.
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Only somewhat. He has made comments about it. I’m all for waiting for better reference. We more or less know how it was constructed. We also know how it wasn’t constructed. It doesn’t thread together or split in the middle for ease of electronics install. That’s more what I was getting at.
 
teecrooz said:
I can’t believe I have to write this again. There is no sinister plot. The saber was and still is privately owned. Brandon was able to purchase it for his own personal enjoyment. He has no intention of ever selling it. It will be passed down to his children. I know because I asked.
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Was this aimed at me? Honestly I can't tell. If it was - in my defense :
Mouse Vader said:
For clarity I'm talking generally here about original props that are much sought after not just sabers.
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My money is on a gun part, or maybe something from vintage electronics like a reel-to-reel or movie projector, but honestly I have no idea.
 
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thd9791 said:
...BACK TO THE V2 - there's lots to talk about while we wait. we found out recently the emitter didn't really spin on screen...
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I'm still a bit dubious about this, myself.


What are we thinking, was the emitter separate at that time anyway?
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The emitter is a separate piece during ANH most assuredly in my book. With the wood buck in private possession and the auction pics showing a separate neck on the thing that made the molds for the cast hilts, splitting at the windvane, the entire emitter could be cast separately for extras.

The collar Brandon Alinger mentions would therefore most likely be a machined bit of the neck that slots into a separate hilt "body" into the lower portion of the neck. I replicate this on my Alu-Cast project but add a bit more engineering using a steel sleeve instead that fits further into the neck/windvane portion to avoid creating a stress point.

I think whether or not the people who worked on machining the cast hilt(s) were professional machinists, one would've found out immediately how off-center these things are once put on a lathe. If the initial idea for the stunt/fx hilt is to have a rig with a drive-shaft that runs up through the center, ideally, you're gonna want to have that channel centered. If you bored straight through with the emitter attached to the full hilt, you're gonna end up in a hole that looks centered in one end, one side of the neck thinner than another, and have a hole poke out the bottom someplace else.

So, for practicality, you channel the saber and the emitter separately, and piece them together after because they'll then have a channel that runs true and center. In my experience working on these so far, you'll have more work to do in the hilt than you will the emitter to keep the d/s freely spinning, but the emitter would keep things in line (true).

I would wager that the V3 (or any stunt fencing hilt without motors) were also set up like this, minus the additions made for having to store a motor rig; meaning it mostly being solid, possibly missing the collar, but most definitely a separate emitter and a hilt "body." I think it's fairly safe to say now that barring the Yuma stunt and all the resin cast stunts, the pommel is most definitely a separate piece on these metal cast hilts.
 
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James Kenobi 1138 said:
I was thinking like a control, a lever you push or move, and the texture is for your finger.
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I had a similar thought, initially. Either that from a gun or movie camera of some sort, but another thought I had was that they were some kind of feet for a medium-format box camera of some kind.
 
PoopaPapaPalps said:
I'm still a bit dubious about this, myself.




The emitter is a separate piece during ANH most assuredly in my book. With the wood buck in private possession and the auction pics showing a separate neck on the thing that made the molds for the cast hilts, splitting at the windvane, the entire emitter could be cast separately for extras.

The collar Brandon Alinger mentions would therefore most likely be a machined bit of the neck that slots into a separate hilt "body" into the lower portion of the neck. I replicate this on my Alu-Cast project but add a bit more engineering using a steel sleeve instead that fits further into the neck/windvane portion to avoid creating a stress point.

I think whether or not the people who worked on machining the cast hilt(s) were professional machinists, one would've found out immediately how off-center these things are once put on a lathe. If the initial idea for the stunt/fx hilt is to have a rig with a drive-shaft that runs up through the center, ideally, you're gonna want to have that channel centered. If you bored straight through with the emitter attached to the full hilt, you're gonna end up in a hole that looks centered in one end, one side of the neck thinner than another, and have a hole poke out the bottom someplace else.

So, for practicality, you channel the saber and the emitter separately, and piece them together after because they'll then have a channel that runs true and center. In my experience working on these so far, you'll have more work to do in the hilt than you will the emitter to keep the d/s freely spinning, but the emitter would keep things in line (true).

I would wager that the V3 (or any stunt fencing hilt without motors) were also set up like this, minus the additions made for having to store a motor rig; meaning it mostly being solid, possibly missing the collar, but most definitely a separate emitter and a hilt "body." I think it's fairly safe to say now that barring the Yuma stunt and all the resin cast stunts, the pommel is most definitely a separate piece on these metal cast hilts.
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So, on this topic, jon bunker made a diagram from memory and that is the first time anyone mentioned the emitter still being on the saber i think. I know it was a while ago, but the bearing he places in the emitter would explain the shallow nipple hole on the V3. Like you said, these casts were not true so i imagine making this work would be difficult.

Here is an example I have of an emitter still attached to a motorized hilt. Its a recent saber I got, I was humbled to be contacted for it. This was basically a one-off by Vadermania, he had a handful made as part of his own project basically and i dont want his inbox blowing up, but also want to credit him.

Considering the V2 emitter discussion, I can totally see the emitter being separated for machining... though it would mean Bunker forgot that detail. It does seem like the V3 has an emitter from another cast.
1597697091825799711763026585033.jpg
 
To answer Dewy's question... I dug up this quote from Mr. Alinger:
BAlinger15 said:
Hi guys,

I've read through this and tried to digest as much as I can.

The diagram a few posts back showing how the emitter is held on via the rod is generally accurate. It's been some time since I disassembled the prop, but I'm pretty certain the nipple and the emitter are one single piece - this is evidenced by looking at the shaft that runs through it -- there are no breaks in that shaft.

I have never known exactly how the motor and blade set up for ANH worked. I don't know how it was set up. I don't think anyone does - though we can speculate. Certainly the emitter spins freely now and based on that I assumed it did at the time of ANH - could be wrong, as evidenced above. It's possible that a shaft originally connected to the motor in the hilt and extended out through the emitter - the emitter could have been free floating on it, and thus not spinning in some shots. Nobody knows.

I don't think the emitter was ever cut or anything like that. The emitter neck fits cleanly into the neck of the hilt itself -- they are made to fit together. This feels very intentional. Also, I don't see any evidence on the "V2" (I've never understood the name...) of it starting as a cast piece. They may have tried the cast piece ("V3"), found it didn't work very well, and gone to a straight machined piece instead.

I have always believed this was the prop used by Guinness in ANH. See the strange long clamp lever, that has not been seen on any other prop, and the missing Graflex sidebar. The jawa stun-prop is interesting -- could well be the exact same clamp. I note that prop is in Tunisia, whereas the saber prop would have been filmed later, at the studio.

Some unknown / undocumented additional hilt being the actual one used by Guinness? I'll leave the door open that anything is possible, but I doubt it. They didn't have many multiples on props for ANH. Look at the other key hand props...

Why are there two sets of set screws on the emitter - one below the widest "Emitter plate" and another on the nipple? I can't answer exactly. The ones in the nipple position, as it sits today, in to a groove cut in the run, and that's what locks the emitter on. I don't know what the lower set is doing, or did, if anything. It would seem reasonable that the lower set might have locked the emitter to the hilt, while the upper set somehow locked the blade in.

When I first saw the saber collars on the real blades, my immediate thought was -- the nipple on the hilt is one of those. But when I looked, they are different. The nipple on the Luke saber is a two-step thing. The collars on the existing saber blades don't have that step in them. It's also quite likely IMO that the existing blades are from ROJ only, possibly ESB, and most likely not from ANH.

If the footage truly shows the nipple moving and not the emitter face, it must be a different emitter, at least, to this one. Perhaps the "V3" was used for some shots.

I always welcome research and information. Unfortunately, we may never know exactly how the ANH blade-to-motor connection was made.

BTW, slightly related, check out the footage at around 8:03 here:
Is Hamill spinning the blade freely on the hilt, as it does today? I always thought it looked that way.

Best
Brandon
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from this thread:
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Is Darth Vader's saber blade painted (ANH) & blade flexing.

Humm, that's making more sense - at last. Thank you both for taking the time over this. So to a certain extent the current configuration is dependent on blade form/attachment method? or could be? So I think the confusion might be that there's a level of attention to word usage that might be...
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I feel as if I have seen it mentioned somewhere else as well, but I can't find it right now.

Also probably worth quoting as well regarding the emitters from info provided by Jon Bunker:
vadermania said:
I have just learned a few new things from a phone conversation with Jon this morning. Please bare in mind that Jon does his best to remember the details. Those lightsaber hilts were constructed more than 40 years ago.

- the emitter on the OB1 spfx hilts were not spinning. The blades went through the emitter right "into" the motor
- (some) OB1 spfx hilts were probably constructed differently, i. e. the emitter was a machined part and not cast aluminum
- Jon used a long and thin "Märklin" motor with gearbox, approx. 70mm long including gearbox (approx. 20mm was gearbox), ca. 25mm in diameter
- Ratio approx 20:1, 6V - 1V
- there was a "push fit roller bearing" at top
- they used a front projection setup on the camera
- they experimented with different blade "speeds" in combination with camera shutter to get the best flicker effect
- the spfx saber hilts were quite noisy
- blades for OB1/Vader duel were round wood (some hardwood, some balsa, some tapered, some not)
- blades were painted black first, after that strips of scotchlite from a sheet were glued on
- there were also square/triangular shaped blades used (probably on Lukes SPFX hilt in Ben's hut)
- they experienced wobbling/vibration and tried to eliminate it by the choice of wood of blades and varying the length of the blades

Bert Hamilton was the main responsible guy for the construction of the SPFX lightsabers.

Jon told me he will do a little "construction" drawing of the inner workings out of his memory.
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from this thread:
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Oops! We ran into some problems.

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I don't think the V2 emitter was originally a cast part. I *think* the first step under the emitter flange is larger on the V2 than the wooden buck by a bit, but I'll have to double check the measurements I've calculated. But they must have made cast spares based on the fact they cut the buck (likely where the V3 emitter comes from as said) So perhaps the emitter was separate, but only for the purpose of keeping everything straight in ANH, and whatever method that held it in place came loose by RotJ
 
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Im getting 44.44 mm on the Anakin Starkiller V2 and 43.3 mm on the V3 (2nd emitter section "under lip")

V2 AS
12.4 tall lower neck

V3
10.2 tall lower neck

I dont think the bodies are as related as we think
 
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No disrespect to Jon Bunker, but I do feel he is misremembering a bit. After all, it is going on 50 years since he worked on these so it's natural. I believe it was him that said there were "8" Obi's made, but I think that means 8 in total cast. Two were made for stunts with the others used as spare parts. After all, that's all that survived currently from ANH through RotJ, with the two casts that we know of ending up in private collections: one with Gus and one with Vadermania. There hasn't been any evidence thus far, as I'm aware, that the LF Archives has any more. Bunker told Vadermania that he got his from fishing it out the trash after production wrapped. Given Brandon Alinger's credibility, I think we can take his word on there being a lack in number of key props. Vader's ANH helmet is further evidence of this. The original only just cropped up again in France(?) and as far as I understand it, there's no evidence of there being others beyond those that were later cast from that original.

There's no way of knowing for certain of separate emitters/hilts being machined from stock unless the V2 or V3 were literally put under a microscope and metallurgic analyses were made. From my own hands-on research, the V2's measurements aren't that drastically different from the raw cast; at least, nothing that can't be achieved from machining what's available. Not that it can't be cut down from roundstock or that there's anything to solidly say against it, but for me, the evidence is very strong in favor of cast.

The same with the V3. I'm in the middle of filing some for my run and they literally did close to nothing to it. The V3 today, as I understand it, is only as it is due to Don Bies (is that correct?) fixing it up for touring in an exhibit in Japan in the early 90's (again, is that correct?). Who knows of the work that's been done to it beyond the paint and chrome tape? I tried comparing the raw-cast hilt to the R2 air-cannon cast and the most I figured was: maybe? Maybe it was just paint and tape, and a bit of sanding to the emitter face? The short of it is, is this: the V3 is definitely just a cleaned up cast.
 
To prevent getting into chinese whispers here I believe the following are the quotes from Jon Bunker being referred to lately, they're all from Vadermania's posts :
vadermania said:
According to Jon, multiple stunt sabers of each type were constructed for ANH, spinning and static ones. After production wrapped, most of the stuff they (Special Effects) built landed in trash bins. Crew members picked souvenirs from trash, so did Jon.
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post #73 pg4 this thread : Is Darth Vader's saber blade painted (ANH) & blade flexing.
and:
vadermania said:
I had a conversation yesterday with the person from whom I got my original Obi lightsaber blank back in 1997. If his memory serves him correct, there were about 8 mechanized sabers build in total for ANH plus some "static" ones without the spinnung function. He had built not all of them himself.
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post #196 pg10 this thread : Halliwax's weird V3 theory

In conjunction with industry norms of 3 of everything I speculate, of the motorised stunts, that there were 2 graffies, 3 OB1's & 3 Vaders or that there were 3 of each & 8 was slip of the tongue.

I believe (incorrectly?) that Jon was not involved in their construction but was at some point in the group tasked with making balsa blades. He has not specified when in production this was. From my own research on the motorised graffy I believe this may have been fairly early on in filming or even preproduction as his sketch has the wiring going in a 1/4 inch jack socket in the pommel base. This I'm convinced is the dark area we can see in pictures of the graffy stunt & was just left in situ afer moving the wire inlet to the side (to better conceal them). Clearly he was close to &/or handling them at various times.

I differ from PPP's opinion & feel the V2 was more likely machined from stock, but he clearly has the advantage of me by hands on experimentation with his casts.
 
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I truly believe only 3 motorized stunts were made (finished) and operational

Lukes graflex stunt

Kenobi motor stunt
Kenobi failed stunt (v3)

Vader stunt

If they were multiple stunts, vader wouldn’t have had to use the repurposed lukes in the duel. Just grab the back up vader stunt..

We also only see these 3 on screen, and never seen any other footage, photos, or props left over in the archives

I said this many times, and still believe only these 3/4 were made...or should I say “made” available to production
 
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