Jedi death question

[Vermithrax 4]

Because I'm strong with the Dark Side of the Force, Kevin. :lol

After TPM came out I had a friend actually make the suggestion that Palpatine fathered Anakin and had simply moved Schmi out to Tatooine to avoid a senatorial scandal. Interesting idea.

 

[MooCriket]

Well if that is true...it must have been the worst ever. I mean he did the Jedi mind wipe and dumped her on the planet that is farthest from the bright center of the galaxy.

That's cold. Straight up.

 

[Vermithrax 4]

And a waterless dustball of a planet to boot!

In yet another missed opportunity in the PT, when Qui-Gonn realizes the need to repair the Queen's ship and hide, he, as a Jedi master, should have felt the presence in the Force that was emanating from the direction of Tatooine, i.e. Anakin, the "vergence" he mentioned. The Force itself should have guided him there and we should have seen that. Instead what did we get? Obi-Wan immediately suggesting Tatooine because it was on the computer screen and because it was small and out of the way. Not because either of them sensed through the Force that there might be a REASON to go there. Again, Qui-Gonn should have directed them to land outside Mos Espa because the Force was leading him there and the sense of a presence should have gotten stronger until he followed it right into Watto's shop to see the young boy who was generating it. None of that was shown nor even implied. A shame. It could have been glorrrrrious.

 

[Robert412]

It does seem to me that so many things were convenient in the PT.

Back to the original post, it was a friend of mine's theory that you just had to die in front of Luke. This was before the PT.

 

[JD]

Cut from ROTS...

222 INT. POLIS MASSA-OBSERVATION DOME-NIGHT
On the isolated asteroid of Polis Massa, YODA meditates.

YODA
Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have.
Still much to learn, there is ...

QUI -GON (V.O.)
Patience. You will have time. I did not.
When I became one with the Force I made
a great discovery. With my training, you will
be able to merge with the Force at will.
Your physical self will fade away, but
you will still retain your consciousness.
You will become more powerful
than any Sith.

YODA
Eternal consciousness.

QUI-GON (V.O.)
The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved,
but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a
Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired
through compassion, not greed.

YODA
... to become one with the Force,
and influence still have...
A power greater than all, it is.

QUI-GON (V.O.)
You will learn to let go of everything.
No attachment, no thought of self.
No physical self.

YODA
A great Jedi Master, you have become,
Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.​

YODA thinks about this for a minute, then BAIL ORGANA enters the room and breaks his meditation.

BAIL ORGANA
Excuse me, Master Yoda.
Obi-Wan Kenobi has made contact.​

233 INT. ALDERAAN CRUISER-CONFERENCE ROOM
BAIL ORGANA, YODA, and OBI-WAN sit around a conference table.

Y
ODA
Pregnant, she must still appear.
Hidden, safe, the children must be kept.

OBI-WAN
We must take them somewhere the
Sith will not sense their presence.

YODA
Split up, they should be.
BAIL ORGANA

My wife and I will take the girl.
We've always talked of adopting a baby girl.
She will be loved with us.
OBI-WAN

And what of the boy?
YODA
To Tatooine. To his family,
send him.

OBI-WAN
I will take the child and watch over him.
Master Yoda, do you think Anakin's twins
will be able to defeat Darth Sidious?

YODA
Strong the Force runs, in the Skywalker line.
Hope, we can... Done, it is.
Until the time is right, disappear we will.​

BAIL leaves the conference room. YODA stops OBI-WAN.

YODA
(continuing)
Master Kenobi, wait a moment.
In your solitude on Tatooine,
training I have for you.

OBI-WAN
Training??

YODA
An old friend has learned
the path to immortality.

OBI-WAN
Who?

YODA
One who has returned from the
netherworld of the Force to train me...
your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

OBI-WAN
Qui-Gon? But, how could
he accomplish this?

YODA
The secret of the Ancient Order
of the Whills, he studied. How to
commune with him. I will teach you.

OBI-WAN
I will be able to talk with him?

YODA
How to join the Force, he will train you.
Your consciousness you will retain,
when one with the Force. Even
your physical self, perhaps.​

 

[darthgordon]

*sigh* according to Lucas, Obi-Wan and Yoda brought him back. He could not have done it himself. They were able to do so after he redeemed himself and was able to let go.

 

[Timmythekid]

*sigh* according to Lucas, Obi-Wan and Yoda brought him back. He could not have done it himself. They were able to do so after he redeemed himself and was able to let go.

But...but....Yoda and Kenobi are the two who insist that there's nothing left of Anakin, and that he's become irredemably evil. Luke suggests there's another way, and Kenobi flat out says "nope, he's evil I tells ya, EEEEEEEVVVVILLLLLLL!". Why the hell would either of them want to help Anakin?

 

[Vermithrax 4]

Yoda and Ben seemed to firmly believe that Anakin simply could not be redeemed and turned back to the Good Side. I'd say it's very possible that both of them (certainly Yoda) had witnessed Jedi turn to the Dark Side before and knew from experience that they could not be turned back. But Luke had faith that it could be done and, as we know, it was. So once Anakin had come back to the Good Side then Yoda and Ben helped Anakin in whatever way they could to cross over with his consciousness intact. For them it would have been like welcoming a brother back into the fold who had simply been away a long time. Three powerful Jedi, reunited, existing together forever through the greatness of the Force. That's the impression I always got from that closing scene in ROTJ.

 

[CessnaDriver]

But...but....Yoda and Kenobi are the two who insist that there's nothing left of Anakin, and that he's become irredemably evil. Luke suggests there's another way, and Kenobi flat out says "nope, he's evil I tells ya, EEEEEEEVVVVILLLLLLL!". Why the hell would either of them want to help Anakin?

It was all to set Luke up perhaps.
Luke had to be told these things, in order for his deep belief in salvation for his father to be genuine and to actually work.

If he was told, sure there's a chance, well that's not Luke acting on his own belief against all odds, it's not going to be strong enough trust in his feelings.

 

[Vermithrax 4]

Very good point, CessnaD. :thumbsup

 

[Timmythekid]

Don`t buy it. Otherwise why declare that one of them has to go kill Vader in RotS, not ``Go talk Anakin out of being a simple-minded ******* we must.`` or ``Still the little annoying turd you trained Skywalker is....go give him a hug.``. They jumped straight to `welp, he`s a bad guy now, let`s off ìm!``.
That`s actually one thing that I thought worked tying the two trilogies together; the jedi are so boneheaded stubborn and dogmatic that the possibility of redemption never even occurs to them. They insist on seeing the universe as black and white, and as a result completely blow every opportunity they had to help Anakin when he needed it. ``Worried about loosing your loved onesÉ Don``t worry about it, be happy they`re dead`` You`re a hormonal teenagerÉ Don`t worry about, just mediatate more. Then they prime Luke to be a Vader-killer by lying and creating BS half-truths to get him good and mad, point him at Vader and get pissy when he bucks and says, hey maybe there`s another way here.

 

[SSgt Burton]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.


Wait... :unsure



:lol

Kevin

 

[drakeprimeone]

If you stick to star wars lore which includes books and comics and also pre dates the events in TPM.....

1. Only jedi masters fade away upon death and speaking to the living from the force was an ability most had.

2. Sith masters also had the ability to speak to the living from the force (the dark side)

Conclusion: Tpm was jacked story wise.

And with that I just crossed a new line of geekdom.... Lol

 

[blewis17]

In order to figure it out, you have to know it's possible - there's no way he can know it's possible. Nothing short of Qui-gon thinking he's good enough that in death he can talk him back to the good side and we find out he's been doing the ghost thing to vader the last 15 years or so.

Sorry, it took Qui-gon 20 years to figure it out. I'm not buying darth, not even knowing it's an option, figures it out inside of 24 hours.

Ah, but Darth had several YEARS to figure it out. Remember on the Death Star I, when he cut down Obi-Wan, who just vanished? Vader was certainly confused at that point, and I guarantee was doing some heavy research behind the scenes to figure out what had happened. ANd he most likely did NOT discuss it with the Emperor

 

[Lost21stJedi]

Then how did Anakin manage it?

Long before the PT I had always assumed that all Jedi fade away upon their deaths and can return in spirit if they wish, although most don't, they simply go on to become part of the Force. I also assumed that the Sith could not do this because of their darkness, that Anakin/Vader had not been aware of this before he turned to the Dark Side. Then when the PT happend that sort of threw a big monkey wrench into those magical ideas of mine. :lol

In the book, The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, the epilogue (page 210) it is explained that Obi-Wan reaches out to Anakin

"Anakin, listen carefully", Obi-Wan interrupted, "you are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I have still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force."

"But, Master...why me?"

"Because you ended the horror, Anakin, you fulfilled the propechy"

I edited it, didn't feel like typing it word for word