Back to the Future part III question…
- Thread starter Moviefreak
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What you're describing is a Grandfather Paradox: If I travel back in time and kill my grandfather, I will never be born. So I won't be able to travel back in time and kill him.
BTTF completely breaks down if you apply that notion, because it's all circular. Same thing with Terminator and Kyle Reese being the father of John Connor.
So the answer is: dramatic license!
BTTF completely breaks down if you apply that notion, because it's all circular. Same thing with Terminator and Kyle Reese being the father of John Connor.
So the answer is: dramatic license!
Lightning
Master Member
This isn't a plot hole, there's just a version of the timeline we don't see
1. No time travel, no one volunteered to meet Clara at the station, she goes over the Cliff
2. Doc volunteers to meet her at the Station, the fall in love, he gets shot, she puts up the tombstone.
3. Marty tells Doc about Clara. Marty still has his original memories from timeline #1. Doc doesn't meet her at the station, saves her anyway, rest of movie happens.
1. No time travel, no one volunteered to meet Clara at the station, she goes over the Cliff
2. Doc volunteers to meet her at the Station, the fall in love, he gets shot, she puts up the tombstone.
3. Marty tells Doc about Clara. Marty still has his original memories from timeline #1. Doc doesn't meet her at the station, saves her anyway, rest of movie happens.
CB2001
Master Member
It’s similar to another time travel movie: Deja Vu (2006). Essentially, there’s multiple variations of the time line, but we’re looking at events from the one perspective. Clara was dead by going over the cliff in three of the timelines (the first one seen in the start of the first film, the “improved” timeline in the end of the first film into 2015 and Hell Valley). With what’s presented about the timelines, Marty has memories of the first timeline though it no longer exists. And consider that if a change is made, it often takes time for the changes to occur (as we see with the first film with Marty almost blinking out of existence, the fact 2015 Biff was able to make it back to 2015 before he is erased from existence, and Doc and Marty didn’t notice anything wrong until they jumped to Hell Valley. So, the moment that Doc was accidentally sent back in time from being hit by lightning at the end of Part 2, the change where Clara was saved from her death had already occurred and the timeline changed before Marty and Doc 1955 recovered the Delorean. Doc in 1885 probably didn‘t realize that the timeline was changed until after dropping Clara off at home, and 1955 Doc probably grew up not aware of the change. It wasn’t until Doc and Marty both noticed the change from Clayton Ravine to Shonash Ravine.
As Doc best put it, “You’re not thinking fourth dimensionally.”
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The other "answer" is that the Universe is set-up so that, while you MAY still be able to go back and meet your grandfather, you WON'T be able to kill him. Even if you try multiple times, you will always be thwarted in the attempt(s).
Unless you are Phillip J. Fry, in which case, you ARE your own grandfather...
And as for BTTF (and I know Doc explained this on the chalkboard with the split timeline), but is the prevailing theory that:
1) There are multiple timelines/Universes, and Marty and Jennifer just end up in a really, really similar but still separate one at the end of BTTF 3?
2) Or that changing the past DOES change the future in the same timeline (this would contradict what Doc said, correct?), and time is a loop where you create a new series of events that alters the SAME timeline, which you can re-enter after the changes occur, but STILL retain memories of the original timeline? (this is what appears to happen throughout the 3 films)
1) There are multiple timelines/Universes, and Marty and Jennifer just end up in a really, really similar but still separate one at the end of BTTF 3?
2) Or that changing the past DOES change the future in the same timeline (this would contradict what Doc said, correct?), and time is a loop where you create a new series of events that alters the SAME timeline, which you can re-enter after the changes occur, but STILL retain memories of the original timeline? (this is what appears to happen throughout the 3 films)
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Yeah, what everyone else said.
Just because Doc didnt come back to save Marty doesnt mean he wasnt in any position to save Clara.
Doc was basically a roving vigilante dealing with Biff so might have saved some random person from Biff and his gang, then ran into Clara and saved her from falling.
Regarding Marty stating her fate was to fall into the ravine, two possible explanations:
1) This future has already been changed and Marty wasnt aware
We know that the time traveler's memories are not updated and Marty's and Doc's memories are from the very original pre-BTTF timeline before time travel (and before Doc went back in time). Its possible that in the universe before Marty went back to save Doc, Doc saved Clara and the ravine was already no longer named after her.
2) Clara does fall into the ravine after Doc's death
A darker explanation but maybe Clara is driven by despair after Doc's death or is chased by Biff's gang or just has another accident with the horses and falls into the ravine after Doc died, completing her "fate." The only way to avoid it is to live happily with still alive Doc.
Just because Doc didnt come back to save Marty doesnt mean he wasnt in any position to save Clara.
Doc was basically a roving vigilante dealing with Biff so might have saved some random person from Biff and his gang, then ran into Clara and saved her from falling.
Regarding Marty stating her fate was to fall into the ravine, two possible explanations:
1) This future has already been changed and Marty wasnt aware
We know that the time traveler's memories are not updated and Marty's and Doc's memories are from the very original pre-BTTF timeline before time travel (and before Doc went back in time). Its possible that in the universe before Marty went back to save Doc, Doc saved Clara and the ravine was already no longer named after her.
2) Clara does fall into the ravine after Doc's death
A darker explanation but maybe Clara is driven by despair after Doc's death or is chased by Biff's gang or just has another accident with the horses and falls into the ravine after Doc died, completing her "fate." The only way to avoid it is to live happily with still alive Doc.
I always assumed it was the first one.
Marty in BTTF#3 is still the same guy who started the first movie. He remembers when the mall had twin pines and his father was a middle-aged wimp and his mom was an alcoholic. That's why he remembers the timeline when Clara went over the ravine.
Doc (who is also from the original pre-time-travel 1985) remembers the world this way too. That's why he was puzzled by the name 'Shonash Ravine'. He knew it as 'Clayton Ravine' just like Marty knew of Clara's original tragic end. (And neither of them know it as 'Eastwood Ravine'. Their actions haven't even created that tangent yet.)
As soon as Doc got zapped back to 1885, Clara's original outcome was changed. Now Doc goes to pick her up & saves her from the ravine regardless of whether Marty goes back to retrieve him or not.
Remaining problems:
- One week isn't much time for Clara to become 'his beloved.'
- What was the ravine called when Marty was still in 1955? Like, after the DeLorean had been accidentally lighting-struck back to 1885 (so Clara doesn't die in the ravine anymore), but before Marty leaves for 1885 to the rescue (and becomes Mr. Eastwood). I guess it would have still been called 'Shonash Ravine' at least up to 1985.
- Wasn't that landscape feature pretty big for a 'ravine'? I would call that a canyon.
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Lightning
Master Member
The movie says that Doc volunteered to meet her at the train station, and only Marty giving him future knowledge makes him decide to not go. So in the previous timeline Doc picks up Clara at the station and they have an uneventful trip to the schoolhouse, and fall in love on the way.
Also the "Clara suicide" is a great one, nicely removing her from the timeline so she can't change history, just as Doc did later by inventing the time train, and removing his whole family from history.
I've always thought Clara's death-in-the-ravine backstory was probably a tactical move by Zemeckis & Gale, in the moral sense. It gets Doc off the hook for changing history when he gets involved with Clara.
If she had originally lived out a normal life (before Doc appeared in 1885) then their whole relationship would have been goofing up the future. But with her fated to die in the ravine, she didn't really 'belong' in 1885 anymore after that day when Doc saves her. No more than he did. So they were free to fall for each other and eventually have kids & time-travel away.
Doc's actions would have been a lot messier if Clara was originally fated to have a life & family with some other 1880s Hill Valley resident. Him getting involved with her would have rippled out and caused a bunch of subsequent people not to exist.
If she had originally lived out a normal life (before Doc appeared in 1885) then their whole relationship would have been goofing up the future. But with her fated to die in the ravine, she didn't really 'belong' in 1885 anymore after that day when Doc saves her. No more than he did. So they were free to fall for each other and eventually have kids & time-travel away.
Doc's actions would have been a lot messier if Clara was originally fated to have a life & family with some other 1880s Hill Valley resident. Him getting involved with her would have rippled out and caused a bunch of subsequent people not to exist.
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HeartBlade
Sr Member
Makes sense.
I think one thing that is sort of running in the background is that Doc is really lonely. He was just the "crazy dude inventing useless things" with Marty being his only friend, possibly from a young age who asked to try one of his inventions. Doc seems to have no family or friends and was probably obsessed with time travel because he felt alone and the machine would give him the ability to travel to a time and place where he could meet and connect with others. The Delorean time machine is also the first thing he invented that actually works.
Given the many years of being alone, that one week with Clara who genuinely falls for him and cares for him despite being shot in the back and slowly dying is still worthy to make her his beloved which makes Doc's story tragic with a happy ending. Doc was still willing to stay in the Wild West with Clara rather than return to the present with Marty as well.
Probably just the original name.
Apparently a canyon has a river between it while a ravine doesnt.
What is the difference between a ravine, gorge and canyon?
I recently went for a hike up a gorge and then down a ravine. What is the difference between a gorge and a ravine? And how does canyon fit in? My impression was that there was an implied scale, wh...
english.stackexchange.com
Yeah. Given what happened in 1 with Marty unintentionally seducing his mom, Doc would have literally wiped out a generation if Clara wasnt someone whose life ended prematurely.
Strikerkc
Sr Member
so:
1. Marty is originally from a time line where Clara drives her own wagon in from the train station, and she dies along the way. So he remembers the story.
2. Doc gets sent back in time to the old west. And is asked by the mayor at the town meeting to meet the new school teacher at the STATION when she comes in. This is in the same timeline where Marty has NOT gone back in time to save Doc yet. So Doc meets Clara at the station, drives the both of them safely back to town , and is shot in the back by Tannon on the following Monday. So in the timeline where she writes the tombstone, Marty would be the only Person in Hill valley that remembers the story of her death.
3. Marty goes back to save Doc.
4. Doc ditches meeting Clara at the station to go make plans with Marty, dooming Clara to die of her original fate. But by chance, they save her a new second way in the middle of the fatal wreck, instead of by giving her a leisurely carriage ride into town from the station..
1. Marty is originally from a time line where Clara drives her own wagon in from the train station, and she dies along the way. So he remembers the story.
2. Doc gets sent back in time to the old west. And is asked by the mayor at the town meeting to meet the new school teacher at the STATION when she comes in. This is in the same timeline where Marty has NOT gone back in time to save Doc yet. So Doc meets Clara at the station, drives the both of them safely back to town , and is shot in the back by Tannon on the following Monday. So in the timeline where she writes the tombstone, Marty would be the only Person in Hill valley that remembers the story of her death.
3. Marty goes back to save Doc.
4. Doc ditches meeting Clara at the station to go make plans with Marty, dooming Clara to die of her original fate. But by chance, they save her a new second way in the middle of the fatal wreck, instead of by giving her a leisurely carriage ride into town from the station..
Lightning
Master Member
Exactly, and Marty's suggestion that they take her with them was the correct solution, but Doc was so emotionally compromised that he doesn't realize it, thinking its the selfish solution. He probably didn't logic out all the timelines until later, and that probably spurred his building of the time train.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
Well Doc's huge internal conflict in 3 is his regret about the time machine and believing how it only causes trouble despite all the good it has done (made Marty's life better by saving both his family and his kids in the future) so him rejecting the benefits because of the perceived benefit to himself is understandable.
Its not until he recognizes that time is not fixed and the future is what you make it is when he seems to come to terms with the time machine, hence the train.
Damn kind of want to watch it again but I dont know where my dvds of this are.
JLeezy23
Sr Member
Clara died until Doc was sent back, Marty remembers because he's from the original timeline and would always remember all versions of the past/future along with Doc and Jennifer.
I also like to think its 1 continuous loop that they can alter... because if Doc buried the car, it would end up in an alternate 1955 where Clara lives and Dic dies, all while Marty would be stuck in the improved 1955 because Clara still died in that version of 1955.
Doc and Clara were each supposed to die in the original history, so they're proof anyone can make their own future and nothing is written in stone, this was theorized/proved in 2015 when they saved Marty Jr and then again proved when Clara and Doc leave 1885 to make their own destiny.
Man i forgot how great the BTTF discussiona can be!
I also like to think its 1 continuous loop that they can alter... because if Doc buried the car, it would end up in an alternate 1955 where Clara lives and Dic dies, all while Marty would be stuck in the improved 1955 because Clara still died in that version of 1955.
Doc and Clara were each supposed to die in the original history, so they're proof anyone can make their own future and nothing is written in stone, this was theorized/proved in 2015 when they saved Marty Jr and then again proved when Clara and Doc leave 1885 to make their own destiny.
Man i forgot how great the BTTF discussiona can be!
But another question: when Clara arrives in the primordial Hill Valley, and Doc is not there to pick her up, she magically ends up with her own wagon and the horses. She just came to town, and the mayor has talked to Doc to go to pick her up because they knew she wouldn’t have her own transportation from the train station. So Clara wouldn’t have Wired a telegram to have a wagon and horses standing by. What, was there an Alamo or Enterprise rental wagon at the train station?
Why was the train station built so far from a town that you would have to take horses to get into town? In the old west, this would’ve probably been within walking distance of the town itself
Also, while I could see a taxi like service or someone would take you on their own horse/buggy into town, I can’t see anyone just loaning or renting you a wagon and horses, especially not a woman at that time.
Why was the train station built so far from a town that you would have to take horses to get into town? In the old west, this would’ve probably been within walking distance of the town itself
Also, while I could see a taxi like service or someone would take you on their own horse/buggy into town, I can’t see anyone just loaning or renting you a wagon and horses, especially not a woman at that time.
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Lightning
Master Member
Yes, they were called livery stables and were very common, horses are expensive to own.
Well, she wasn't going into town, she was going to her house (which is also the schoolhouse?), It is shown to be away from town, not near any other buildings. looks like a homestead with a windmill. Why? No Idea.
Liberance
Well-Known Member
This is the correct answer.
Doc ending up in 1885 after the lightning strike at the end of Part II was already a disruption of the original history in the first place. As people are saying, Marty just remembers the original history, where no one ever went back in time to 1885 and Clara died. Doc simply saved Clara two different ways: one without Marty we never got to see, when he went to pick her up at the station, and one with Marty while trying to avoid ever meeting her (the one we see in the movie).
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