Jedi death question

Discussion in 'Entertainment and Movie Talk' started by HAL9000, Feb 15, 2012.

  1. HAL9000

    HAL9000 Sr Member

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    Sure this must have been handled before, but rewatching TPM last week, made me think about it again...

    When Ben dies, he disappears, as does Yoda.

    Anakin (Vader) and Qui-Gon do not.

    What is the story with them? Is there a system?
     
  2. Probe Droid

    Probe Droid Master Member

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    I believe it was after Qui-Gon died that he came back and tought the others how to do it. He was always talking about "the living Force." It has something to do with that. Yoda mentions it to OWK at the end of Ep. III that he's been talking to QGJ. Anakin, obviously, didn't learn it.
     
  3. Timmythekid

    Timmythekid Sr Member

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    Yup, that's it right there. Yoda has more training for Obi-Wan, and in that pointless scene at the end of RotS where Yoda is catching a nap Qui-Gon was supposed to be telling him about merging with the force. Only Neeson apparently was still not too keen to work with Lucas in any capacity at all so he declined to show up for an afternoon in a recording studio, or phone work. Think about that a minute. Anyways, so no one knows how to do the trick until Qui-Gon returns from the netherworld and teaches Yoda, and Yoda teaches Obi-Wan. Now, does Luke vanish when he dies? He never learned that stuff, did he?
     
  4. cboath

    cboath Master Member

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    Well, Luke had time after ROTJ to learn it from Ben. If the only thing george is beholden to is the movies - Luke has had limitless time with ghost obi to learn it.

    According to the end of the movie, Anakin or Darth learned it as well. Seeing as how the method didn't become known til after he turned uber-bad-guy, they've yet to explain how he figured out the trick unless Qui-gon ran into him in the afterlife cantina and said 'Ani!! How's it going? Look at this trick I figured out'. And he'd have to do it like the minute he died as well since it appeared to be a matter of hours between death/fire/ghostly appearance.
     
  5. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    Then how did Anakin manage it?

    Long before the PT I had always assumed that all Jedi fade away upon their deaths and can return in spirit if they wish, although most don't, they simply go on to become part of the Force. I also assumed that the Sith could not do this because of their darkness, that Anakin/Vader had not been aware of this before he turned to the Dark Side. Then when the PT happend that sort of threw a big monkey wrench into those magical ideas of mine. :lol
     
  6. Columbo

    Columbo Active Member

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    Qui-Gon figured it out without any instruction and Anakin is the most in touch with the Force person ever - seeing as its his father :) - so doesn't seem odd to me that he could do it much more easily than Qui-Gon could.
     
  7. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Disappearing or not, the results are clear and it's kinda messed up, a select few privy to the methods (a taught method apparantly if your at least half azz with the force) get to keep their identity after death effectively becoming immortal rather then getting poured back into the big force Borg pool like the rest of us schmucks! LOL

    And if you do one good thing right before you die despite even murdering children and all sorts of atrocities... immortal! LOL
     
  8. cboath

    cboath Master Member

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    In order to figure it out, you have to know it's possible - there's no way he can know it's possible. Nothing short of Qui-gon thinking he's good enough that in death he can talk him back to the good side and we find out he's been doing the ghost thing to vader the last 15 years or so.

    Sorry, it took Qui-gon 20 years to figure it out. I'm not buying darth, not even knowing it's an option, figures it out inside of 24 hours.
     
  9. Ronan87

    Ronan87 Sr Member

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    Jedi's have done it before FYI. The movies only cover a VERY short timeline. In the past, the Jedi's were much more aware of the Force and the teachings were better.
     
  10. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    Excuse me.

    Palpatine TELLS Anakin he knows how to stop people from dying.

    If he knows THAT, turning into a glowing ghost seems easy. May even be WHAT he was talking about. We don't really know in the movie.

    Anakin learns it from Palpatine/Sidious during the "Darth" years.

    Coming back from the Dead has to be a Darkside trick, yes?
     
  11. MooCriket

    MooCriket Master Member

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    Can't argue with that.
     
  12. Timmythekid

    Timmythekid Sr Member

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    Mmmm....nope, can argue with that. That, by definition Mic, is not "stopping people from dying" - it's how to come back after death, so you've got two different things going on. The "stopping people from dying" definetly is a darkside trick; it's selfish and immature. The merging with the force and retaining your conciousness less so.

    How about going back to the virgin birth as an explanation? The Force created him; the Force reclaimed him at the end. Good and evil have no part in it, so no argument about Anakin's attrocities or when he learned it. Or maybe even his titanic evil and douchebaggery was neccessary to balance out the light-side presence of Yoda and Kenobi. Any takers?
     
  13. crabra comander

    crabra comander Sr Member

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    Yeah, doesn't the Darkside trick to not dying involve taking over another persons body?
     
  14. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    The darkside downside is there can be no afterlife at all. Your just nothing. If I recall whatever it was I read correctly. So stealing another body makes sense.
     
  15. jedibugs

    jedibugs Well-Known Member

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    There is just as much consistency and logic in this as in anything else related to the prequels.
     
  16. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    Maybe someone who listed themselves as Jedi as religion in the UK can give us the answers. Don't they have a temple there yet??? LOL
     
  17. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    I only acknowledge what happens IN the movies.

    So a lot of it is still just a mystery. Unless it's in the Clone Wars, which I quit watching.
     
  18. micdavis

    micdavis Master Member

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    The bad guys are evil.

    Just because Shmei Skywalker doesn't remember getting knocked up doesn't mean some unsavior Tatooine level doctor didn't knock her out and make her pregnant.

    Born of the Force sounds really good and it is great cover story for the gullible.
     
  19. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    No, Palpatine did NOT know how to stop people from dying, that was what he told Anakin that Darth Plagueis could do. Recall what Palp said after Anakin turned to the Dark Side: "To cheat death is something only one has achieved but together I'm certain we can discover the secret." Honestly, I never thought there was any legitimacy in Palpatine's story about Plagueis, that he was just making this up to lure Anakin to the Dark Side, playing on his fear for Padme's life. Sidious is a liar, he lied to Anakin/Vader about Padme's death and he did it for his own devious purposes.

    There are so many ideas thrown out in the PT that are so ludicrously silly. The midichlorian virgin birth is one of them and that goes hand in hand with the "prophecy" that Anakin is the "chosen one". Who made the prophecy? Anakin is now Space Jesus? What was so wrong with Anakin simply having been an execeptionally powerful Jedi who turned to the Dark Side? That would have made the whole saga an alegory for what can happen when one allows anger, fear & aggression to rule one's life and the negative consequences that can result.

    I think I'll just stick to my own original belief that all Jedi fade away and join the Force, that it was a normal thing for them, but not all can manifest themselves, perhaps that's only something that exceptionally powerful Jedi masters could do. Once Anakin had turned back to the good side then that's why he appears at the end of ROTJ, he was simply that powerful...or perhaps he had help from Obi-Wan and Yoda so he could appear just that once so Luke could know that he had, in fact, succeeded in saving his father.
     
  20. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    Wait wasn't it alluded to in the film that Darth (Plagus?) had the ability to "create" life?

    The inferrence being that Anakin was actually born from some Sith "spell"?

    And that Palpatine was the one who cast the spell?


    EDIT- I'm too slow on the draw again. How did you manage to type all that before I could bang off three sentences? :lol

    Kevin
     
  21. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    Because I'm strong with the Dark Side of the Force, Kevin. :lol

    After TPM came out I had a friend actually make the suggestion that Palpatine fathered Anakin and had simply moved Schmi out to Tatooine to avoid a senatorial scandal. Interesting idea.
     
  22. MooCriket

    MooCriket Master Member

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    Well if that is true...it must have been the worst ever. I mean he did the Jedi mind wipe and dumped her on the planet that is farthest from the bright center of the galaxy.

    That's cold. Straight up.
     
  23. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    And a waterless dustball of a planet to boot!

    In yet another missed opportunity in the PT, when Qui-Gonn realizes the need to repair the Queen's ship and hide, he, as a Jedi master, should have felt the presence in the Force that was emanating from the direction of Tatooine, i.e. Anakin, the "vergence" he mentioned. The Force itself should have guided him there and we should have seen that. Instead what did we get? Obi-Wan immediately suggesting Tatooine because it was on the computer screen and because it was small and out of the way. Not because either of them sensed through the Force that there might be a REASON to go there. Again, Qui-Gonn should have directed them to land outside Mos Espa because the Force was leading him there and the sense of a presence should have gotten stronger until he followed it right into Watto's shop to see the young boy who was generating it. None of that was shown nor even implied. A shame. It could have been glorrrrrious.
     
  24. Robert412

    Robert412 Well-Known Member

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    It does seem to me that so many things were convenient in the PT.

    Back to the original post, it was a friend of mine's theory that you just had to die in front of Luke. This was before the PT.
     
  25. JD

    JD Master Member

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    Cut from ROTS...

    222 INT. POLIS MASSA-OBSERVATION DOME-NIGHT
    On the isolated asteroid of Polis Massa, YODA meditates.

    YODA
    Failed to stop the Sith Lord, I have.
    Still much to learn, there is ...

    QUI -GON (V.O.)
    Patience. You will have time. I did not.
    When I became one with the Force I made
    a great discovery. With my training, you will
    be able to merge with the Force at will.
    Your physical self will fade away, but
    you will still retain your consciousness.
    You will become more powerful
    than any Sith.

    YODA
    Eternal consciousness.

    QUI-GON (V.O.)
    The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved,
    but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a
    Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired
    through compassion, not greed.

    YODA
    ... to become one with the Force,
    and influence still have...
    A power greater than all, it is.

    QUI-GON (V.O.)
    You will learn to let go of everything.
    No attachment, no thought of self.
    No physical self.

    YODA
    A great Jedi Master, you have become,
    Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.​
    YODA thinks about this for a minute, then BAIL ORGANA enters the room and breaks his meditation.
    BAIL ORGANA
    Excuse me, Master Yoda.
    Obi-Wan Kenobi has made contact.​
    233 INT. ALDERAAN CRUISER-CONFERENCE ROOM
    BAIL ORGANA, YODA, and OBI-WAN sit around a conference table.
    Y
    ODA
    Pregnant, she must still appear.
    Hidden, safe, the children must be kept.

    OBI-WAN
    We must take them somewhere the
    Sith will not sense their presence.

    YODA
    Split up, they should be.
    BAIL ORGANA

    My wife and I will take the girl.
    We've always talked of adopting a baby girl.
    She will be loved with us.
    OBI-WAN

    And what of the boy?
    YODA
    To Tatooine. To his family,
    send him.

    OBI-WAN
    I will take the child and watch over him.
    Master Yoda, do you think Anakin's twins
    will be able to defeat Darth Sidious?

    YODA
    Strong the Force runs, in the Skywalker line.
    Hope, we can... Done, it is.
    Until the time is right, disappear we will.​
    BAIL leaves the conference room. YODA stops OBI-WAN.

    YODA
    (continuing)
    Master Kenobi, wait a moment.
    In your solitude on Tatooine,
    training I have for you.

    OBI-WAN
    Training??

    YODA
    An old friend has learned
    the path to immortality.

    OBI-WAN
    Who?

    YODA
    One who has returned from the
    netherworld of the Force to train me...
    your old Master, Qui-Gon Jinn.

    OBI-WAN
    Qui-Gon? But, how could
    he accomplish this?

    YODA
    The secret of the Ancient Order
    of the Whills, he studied. How to
    commune with him. I will teach you.

    OBI-WAN
    I will be able to talk with him?

    YODA
    How to join the Force, he will train you.
    Your consciousness you will retain,
    when one with the Force. Even
    your physical self, perhaps.​
     
  26. darthgordon

    darthgordon Sr Member

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    *sigh* according to Lucas, Obi-Wan and Yoda brought him back. He could not have done it himself. They were able to do so after he redeemed himself and was able to let go.
     
  27. Timmythekid

    Timmythekid Sr Member

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    But...but....Yoda and Kenobi are the two who insist that there's nothing left of Anakin, and that he's become irredemably evil. Luke suggests there's another way, and Kenobi flat out says "nope, he's evil I tells ya, EEEEEEEVVVVILLLLLLL!". Why the hell would either of them want to help Anakin?
     
  28. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    Yoda and Ben seemed to firmly believe that Anakin simply could not be redeemed and turned back to the Good Side. I'd say it's very possible that both of them (certainly Yoda) had witnessed Jedi turn to the Dark Side before and knew from experience that they could not be turned back. But Luke had faith that it could be done and, as we know, it was. So once Anakin had come back to the Good Side then Yoda and Ben helped Anakin in whatever way they could to cross over with his consciousness intact. For them it would have been like welcoming a brother back into the fold who had simply been away a long time. Three powerful Jedi, reunited, existing together forever through the greatness of the Force. That's the impression I always got from that closing scene in ROTJ.
     
  29. CessnaDriver

    CessnaDriver Master Member RPF PREMIUM MEMBER

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    It was all to set Luke up perhaps.
    Luke had to be told these things, in order for his deep belief in salvation for his father to be genuine and to actually work.

    If he was told, sure there's a chance, well that's not Luke acting on his own belief against all odds, it's not going to be strong enough trust in his feelings.
     
  30. Vermithrax 4

    Vermithrax 4 Well-Known Member

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    Very good point, CessnaD. :thumbsup
     
  31. Timmythekid

    Timmythekid Sr Member

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    Don`t buy it. Otherwise why declare that one of them has to go kill Vader in RotS, not ``Go talk Anakin out of being a simple-minded jackass we must.`` or ``Still the little annoying * you trained Skywalker is....go give him a hug.``. They jumped straight to `welp, he`s a bad guy now, let`s off ìm!``.
    That`s actually one thing that I thought worked tying the two trilogies together; the jedi are so boneheaded stubborn and dogmatic that the possibility of redemption never even occurs to them. They insist on seeing the universe as black and white, and as a result completely blow every opportunity they had to help Anakin when he needed it. ``Worried about loosing your loved onesÉ Don``t worry about it, be happy they`re dead`` You`re a hormonal teenagerÉ Don`t worry about, just mediatate more. Then they prime Luke to be a Vader-killer by lying and creating BS half-truths to get him good and mad, point him at Vader and get pissy when he bucks and says, hey maybe there`s another way here.
     
  32. SSgt Burton

    SSgt Burton Sr Member

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    Only a Sith deals in absolutes.


    Wait... :unsure



    :lol

    Kevin
     
  33. drakeprimeone

    drakeprimeone Well-Known Member

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    If you stick to star wars lore which includes books and comics and also pre dates the events in TPM.....

    1. Only jedi masters fade away upon death and speaking to the living from the force was an ability most had.

    2. Sith masters also had the ability to speak to the living from the force (the dark side)

    Conclusion: Tpm was jacked story wise.

    And with that I just crossed a new line of geekdom.... Lol
     
  34. blewis17

    blewis17 Sr Member

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    Ah, but Darth had several YEARS to figure it out. Remember on the Death Star I, when he cut down Obi-Wan, who just vanished? Vader was certainly confused at that point, and I guarantee was doing some heavy research behind the scenes to figure out what had happened. ANd he most likely did NOT discuss it with the Emperor :)
     
  35. Lost21stJedi

    Lost21stJedi Well-Known Member

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    In the book, The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, the epilogue (page 210) it is explained that Obi-Wan reaches out to Anakin

    "Anakin, listen carefully", Obi-Wan interrupted, "you are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I have still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force."

    "But, Master...why me?"

    "Because you ended the horror, Anakin, you fulfilled the propechy"

    I edited it, didn't feel like typing it word for word
     

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