Indiana Jones 5 officially announced

James Cameron did a lot of writing on 'Rambo 2'. That's still not the kind of movie you expect when you see "A James Cameron Film" in the opening credits of a show. Cameron still has a clear 'type' and it's reasonable to expect that.


Indy fans took a guess at what PWB's presence meant. They took it as an indicator that Indy would be taken down a peg like Han & Luke Skywalker, and her character would be set up for spinoffs to continue the franchise. Were. They. Wrong?

Instead of coming at it from the viewpoint of "Could PWB bring something good to Indy#5?" you gotta look at it in the context of this particular movie/franchise at this time: "Kathleen Kennedy wants PWB to co-star in (not write) Indy#5 - what's the most likely plan here?"

BTW, co-writing the last James Bond movie is not something to brag about to Indy fans. Indy fans didn't want an Indy movie like that.
I think it was perfectly justified. Now granted, they never should have made Indy 5 at all (or Indy 4 if we're honest). Harrison Ford was simply not physically able to do the things that made the Indiana Jones franchise great. In Crystal Skull, they brought in Mutt, specifically to take over the reins from Ford. It didn't work. Nobody supported it. In Dial of Dysentery, they brought in PWB to do the same thing. It was the only reason she was there. She existed to save Indy's bacon, be a girl-boss and take up his mantle in the end. Even Kathleen Kennedy says "well, she could..." but given the overall reaction and the terrible performance of the movie, I find that doubtful, just like we didn't get Mutt and the Stupid Sequels of Doom following Crystal Skull.

I get that Disney wants this to be an ongoing series because they paid a lot of money for the IP, but given their complete lack of anything resembling respect for the original movies, characters and feel of the movies, screw Disney. If they want support, they have to earn it and they have done absolutely nothing to earn any support at all. We were absolutely not wrong predicting that this would be a complete dumpster fire, just like we know that if they put out the Rey movie, that's going to suck too. Disney just doesn't have it in them to make good movies that respect the lore.
 
Wow…this does shock me, if accurate.

According to Box Office Mojo, “Dial ‘D’ For Destiny” dropped to Number 2 for the 4th of July against…what movie, exactly?

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In theory, it isn't what it looks like. Sound of Freedom did a "buy a ticket for someone else" that didn't require that the recipient actually see that movie, so if we remove that, the numbers are closer, with Freedom probably edging out Indy by a very small margine. Still, for a summer tentpole movie that they were hoping would make a billion dollars, this is just pathetic for Disney.
 
You do realize that when Rambo 2 came out (in '85), the only notable James Cameron films on the market at the time were Piranha 2 and The Terminator. No one knew what a "James Cameron movie" was at the time. :rolleyes:

What's the relevance? My point still stands if you're watching all these movies for the first time decades later.


"Taken down a peg" exactly how?

At the end of the film, Helena goes off for ice cream and Indy grabs his fedora, so this sets her up to continue the franchise how?

Indy's happy ending from the previous movies is revoked. He is given a mostly sad final act in life. He plays 2nd-fiddle to his co-star in his own last movie. His final act in the plotline is to be emotionally weak and need to be punched out. Is that enough?

Helena isn't openly declared to continue the franchise in the final cut they released. But you can blatantly see the intent. The character is written to be another Indy. They reshot a lot of this movie & changed the ending so there's no ruling it out based on the final cut.

BTW - Kathleen Kennedy told Variety that "it's entirely possible for Helena Shaw to star in her own film" two weeks ago.


I get it. You are completely against the notion that maybe, just maybe, the filmmakers cast her because they did actually think she could bring something good to the film (which I personally think she does), because that flies in the face of the conspiracy theory "Kathleen Kennedy is evil" trope. Funny how people like to cherry pick the few properties of hers they didn't like while completely disregarding to LONG history and very hands-on involvement with many of their favorite films. :rolleyes:

You're still missing my point. It's not that PWB can't do anything right. It's that KK choosing PWB for the main co-star is indicative of the plans for the movie.

I will not apologize for crapping on KK. When she was put in charge of LFL a decade ago I was encouraged. She looked like a very solid qualified choice on paper and I thought LFL would be in good hands. But since then she has earned my disappointment. She has mis-managed these franchises. She did a Star Wars trilogy without having a general plot figured out. She keeps making $200m movies that need $100m in re-shoots. This stuff is ridiculous.


Ah... the ol' moving the goal posts tactic. You claim Waller-Bridge is a one-trick pony. I show you how she's not, so now that's no longer the criteria. Got it. You're not worth continuing a discussion with, then. By the way, you do realize that the entire reason Raiders of the Lost Ark was made was because Lucas and Spielberg wanted to make a James Bond film? :rolleyes:

Where did I claim she is a one-trick pony, or anything close to that? You're just putting words in my mouth now.

I don't think Arnold Schwarzenegger is a one-trick pony. He was a big muscle man but he also proved he could do comedy well. In the later 1980s he did 'Twins', and 'Kindgarten Cop'.

If it was 1991 and they announced that Arnold had a major role in a new He-Man movie, would you guess it's a comedy role? Heck no. You would assume he's being hired for his macho side - because you take the rest of the project into account when you make that guess!
 
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In theory, it isn't what it looks like. Sound of Freedom did a "buy a ticket for someone else" that didn't require that the recipient actually see that movie, so if we remove that, the numbers are closer, with Freedom probably edging out Indy by a very small margine. Still, for a summer tentpole movie that they were hoping would make a billion dollars, this is just pathetic for Disney.

Well…and here is the REALLY crushing thing.

The Sound of Freedom was playing on app. 2,000 less screens than “Dial ‘D’ For Destiny” and still took the top spot.

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Well…and here is the REALLY crushing thing.

The Sound of Freedom was playing on app. 2,000 less screens than “Dial ‘D’ For Destiny” and still took the top spot.

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Oh, I agree, the number of theaters isn't even close, but it isn't a head-to-head comparison. Sound of Freedom was only released on the 4th. It was the first day of release. If you compared Indy's first day of release, Freedom gets trounced. Indy has been droppping about 20% per day. It's why you need to look at an apples-to-apples comparison and this isn't it.

Still, Indy's performance is complete garbage, comparison or not. I think in China, the movie only made a little over $2 million over the opening weekend. That's pathetic.
 
The fans were correct to jump to that conclusion, though. PWB acts fairly PWB-esque in the final cut. And it's reasonable to suspect that she was even more severe before they toned her character down in the reshoots.
Not to be argumentative but I really didn't feel much similarity between Helena and PWB's past roles above and beyond what's typically normal for actors. I haven't seen every single moment of her film and television career though.
 
Not to be argumentative but I really didn't feel much similarity between Helena and PWB's past roles above and beyond what's typically normal for actors. I haven't seen every single moment of her film and television career though.

Fair enough.

I don't think PWB was playing an old character in a direct way. I just think she was hired for her persona in general. Her perceived image in the media/culture. Etc.

Indy isn't the same character as Han Solo. But playing Han Solo helped Harrison get the Indy job (once Tom Selleck was out of the running).
 
I dont know anything about PWB, havent seen any of her past work, and didnt find anything particularly off putting about her acting or character. I think theres a hell of a lot of projection going on. Particularly from people who havent even seen the film.

I think, much like Crystal Skull, this film we be accepted more over time, the more time it gets distance from the online drama.
 
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I dont know anything about PWB, havent seen any of her past work, and didnt find anything particularly off putting about her acting or character. I think theres a hell of a lot of projection going on. Particularly from people who havent even seen the film.

I think, much like Crystal Skull, this film we be accepted more over time, the more time it gets distance from the online drama.

By the time they reached the final cut I think her character had been toned down.

I (and many others) am partially reacting to the version of the movie that we all suspect existed before the reshoots. The relevance of it is that the movie still has the same problems now, just to a lesser degree.

Like I've been saying about the larger issues, I don't blame PWB herself for her character. I wouldn't go throw a drink in the woman's face if I saw her in a bar in real life. She was an actor doing a job. I just think her presence was a symptom of the movie's issues.



Look at Jim Carrey playing the Riddler in 'Batman Forever.' I don't have any grudge against Carrey, and yet I did start assuming bad things about the movie as soon as they cast him. That casting choice suggested certain things about the producers' intentions for the movie (which turned out to be true).

Could they have given PWB a totally likeable character in Indy#5? Yes. Could she have delivered that with her acting? Yes.

Jim Carrey could also have delivered a straight-faced dark Riddler in a Burton-style third Batman movie. But that wasn't likely to be what the producers wanted him for, was it?
 
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Regardless of how the film turned out, and how well it ultimately performs, Ford can still get emotional about Indy.

Its nice to hear him and show that he does care, as a lot of times he can come off as if he doesn't care about any of it and just wants a paycheck.
Probably more so with Han in how he shows it, but I'm sure deep down hes very grateful for all these roles. We'll probably never know how much he does or doesn't care per each character hes portrayed.
Its probably similar to Alec Guinness and that he didn't hate Star Wars, just didn't like that fans bombarded him with ONLY Star Wars stuff.
 
I (and many others) am partially reacting to the version of the movie that we all suspect existed before the reshoots.

It is intellectually dishonest to react to the film for a version you SUSPECT exists. Do you even listen to yourself? Part of your dissatisfaction with the movie is for something you only think might have possibly existed. That's absolutely ridiculous.

The conspiracy that there was some major and drastic change to the plot made AFTER principle photography is just that: a conspiracy. Find the evidence (which isn't a 4Chan post about how Helena goes back in time and replaces Indy, by the way). Mangold has said there were no significant reshoots. Karen Allen has said the final ending is more or less in line with the original shooting script she received.

But the only thing people have to go on is a comment by John Williams about having to rescore part of the ending. So what? They likely DID do some minor reshoots of the ending to create better clarity -- it happens ALL THE TIME -- and that very likely would have required adjustment to score to align it.

The instant Waller-Bridge was cast, a certain subsect of the fandom decided to lose their minds and decide the "agenda" was to replace Indiana Jones. And when that didn't happen, they can't seem to handle it, so now it must be a reshoot conspiracy. :rolleyes:

JFC, you lost all credibility when you admitted that you're reacting to something you have no proof is real.
 
It is intellectually dishonest to react to the film for a version you SUSPECT exists. Do you even listen to yourself? Part of your dissatisfaction with the movie is for something you only think might have possibly existed. That's absolutely ridiculous.

The conspiracy that there was some major and drastic change to the plot made AFTER principle photography is just that: a conspiracy. Find the evidence (which isn't a 4Chan post about how Helena goes back in time and replaces Indy, by the way). Mangold has said there were no significant reshoots. Karen Allen has said the final ending is more or less in line with the original shooting script she received.

But the only thing people have to go on is a comment by John Williams about having to rescore part of the ending. So what? They likely DID do some minor reshoots of the ending to create better clarity -- it happens ALL THE TIME -- and that very likely would have required adjustment to score to align it.

The instant Waller-Bridge was cast, a certain subsect of the fandom decided to lose their minds and decide the "agenda" was to replace Indiana Jones. And when that didn't happen, they can't seem to handle it, so now it must be a reshoot conspiracy. :rolleyes:

JFC, you lost all credibility when you admitted that you're reacting to something you have no proof is real.

Except you leave out one very important point,

....the fans have been burned before.

...and not just once.

So, I can understand people being cautious with their time and money from a known franchise killer.

Nowadays, before people spend/waste their time and money on something, they want to know it isn't going to be woke poop. People who love woke crap, love suckering others into woke crap and then act like it is a big joke or you aren't a fan for not bobble-head enjoying said crap.

I saw the movie because I promised someone I would see it with them, and I liked it. I gave it a good review earlier in this thread. Lots of people were trashing Helena, but I mentioned how whe became a better person as the movie progressed and it seems to have softened some opinions.

But what were Helena's choices to drive the story? Damsel in distress or somewhat proficient help.

Was Indy deconstructed?

Did he turn down the hat and whip?

Thankfully, he didn't toss his signature items away like Luke did with his lightsaber. Indy talked to Helena about not being so selfish vs Luke tickling Rey with a branch and asking, "can you feel it?"

I kinda wonder what people were expecting. Indy partying with kids, chugging from a keg while the kids chant, "chug...chug...chug!" Three girls hanging off him as he high-fives his way to a bedroom?

Or Indy tripping on LSD. "Wow! Indy is so cool now!" Queue a cartoonish, drug-trip scene where Indy talks to a fertility idol about having the munchies.

or better yet, Indy in a retirement home, in a wheelchair, crapping himself, getting kicked out of other people's rooms, while he repeats stock answers, because he suffers from dementia.

I think they did a good job with an 80 year-old action hero. Not GREAT, but good enough that I would recommend it.

Look at the Dungeons and Dragons movie, the creators of the film even talked about wimping down male characters, but watch the movie and it didn't really happen. Yeah, no matter what you say, the paladin was the best fighter in the movie. ;)
 
I liked it well enough, it could have been a bit tighter, but it was a fun evening at the movies. It ranks #4 for me with a wide lead over the last attempt — it is legions better than Crystal Skull, which I still find unwatchable.
 
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