Indiana Jones 5 officially announced

[Liberance]

The rumor is that there was a Young Indy (Indy from WW2) and 1969 Indy. 1940's Indy dies to save 1969 Indy and Helena at which point 1969 Indy fades away. Helena grabs the hat and whip and becomes Indiana Jones and a montage ensues where Indy's classic moments from the original three films are replacements with her instead of Ford literally erasing Harrison Ford's Indiana Jones from existence. I can't say with any certainty that this was definitively shot, but that is the plot rumor which prompted the last minute reshoots after the test screenings left audiences infuriated at the idea.

The reshoots have been confirmed by John Williams own mouth as he had to score a new ending for the movie because the writers came up with a new ending a few months before the movie released. There's no contesting that part. As for the above rumor, there's no way to tell what really happened and Lucasfilm would never admit to that openly. So I guess Helena punching Harrison out cold to drag him back to 1969 was the best they could cobble together...

For what it's worth: I know people from ILM who worked on this film and, more specifically, the third act sequence where all that happens, and as far as I personally know, all those stories are not true.

The changes they worked with had more to do with camera placements, geography, and all that type of routine filmmaking stuff. The story itself was what it ultimately is.

Mangold has admitted in recent interviews that he did consider taking the characters back to the 1940s but that the ending didn't have the intended emotional resonance that way, which sounds pretty logical. The whole story about Helena reenacting classic Indiana Jones beats sounds exactly like the kind of absurd nonsense toxic fanboy groups would come up with and I can't believe people have been spending time discussing it at all.

 

[blewis17]

Yeah, he got arrested by the police at the end.
View attachment 1716066

"But I am Arthur, King of the Britains!!"

"Come on. Anybody armed must go, too."

 

[blewis17]

It's the 21st century. Memes happen. Keyboard warriors throw turds. Get over it.

TheRPF's new slogan. Bravo, sir! I present you the Internet for the day.

 

[blewis17]

Could the movie have been better? Sure, like I said there were nuggets of fun original ideals they could have expanded on. The Nazi connection to the US Space program was actually a interesting plot unto itself.

You know, THAT would have been a good movie. I am assuming the Disney/Lucasfilm was referring the work of actual Nazi engineers working for the U.S. government post WW2 during Operation Paperclip, especially Wernher von Braun. Who, in a truth-is-stranger-than-fiction sort of way, ended up working with Walt Disney??!!

 

[blewis17]

And he even states he knows where the idol is back in Raiders so it would have been fun for him to just close out that chapter of his life. But at the same time I'm glad they didnt go too heavy handed with the easter eggs. They feel more inside baseball with this film which is nice.

Of course Indy new where the idol was. It is actually at Jock Lindsey's Hangar bar at Disney Springs in Florida.

 

[Cephus]

...But that makes too much sense...there has to be another reason, like theater fatigue...like inflation...the fans...Covid, which of course i reject ALL those excuses, along with the fact the Ford wanted this story to be told. Not sure what they paid him to do this movie but if they knew all these facts going in and just said, "Yes, Harrison...whatever you say" and willingly spend $300-$500 million to make this movie specifically for 40yrs and up movie goers then yes...not very smart. If we are witnessing the death of movie theaters then we are witnessing the death of movies entirely. If streaming is the way to go then why would any studio spend millions to get a negative return? The movies will be cheaper, look cheaper and actors salaries will diminish fast, especially now that we deepfake everything now. If streaming services have thousands of movies to choose from that are now cheaper and lower budget, and nothing but retcons, then of course the return on investment will be thinner. You would think, the more competition, the better the product that will eventually happen but when it's bad vs worse, who actually wins and who actually loses? They might want to start thinking ahead and start making something new. I can see an explosion of animated movies on the rise due to these costs, and the storytelling might actually be more effective in these anyways. Looks to me like "Champagne wishes and Caviar dreams" will be a thing of the past real soon...and they did it to themselves...nobody else's fault but their own...stop blaming everyone else folks. The message from the fans based on revenue is this:

"We will no longer give you our money in exchange for crap! You shouldn't have made this movie. Did you not learn from the last one?"

Every time someone makes all of those excuses, all we have to do is point to the billion-dollar movies that come out in theaters. Those prove all of the excuses wrong. People are willing to go to the theaters and pay the high prices and sit in the seats if the movie is worth it. The problem isn't fatigue, it's not COVID, it's bad movies.

 

[Psab keel]

For what it's worth: I know people from ILM who worked on this film and, more specifically, the third act sequence where all that happens, and as far as I personally know, all those stories are not true.

The changes they worked with had more to do with camera placements, geography, and all that type of routine filmmaking stuff. The story itself was what it ultimately is.

Mangold has admitted in recent interviews that he did consider taking the characters back to the 1940s but that the ending didn't have the intended emotional resonance that way, which sounds pretty logical. The whole story about Helena reenacting classic Indiana Jones beats sounds exactly like the kind of absurd nonsense toxic fanboy groups would come up with and I can't believe people have been spending time discussing it at all.

If true, then rumor debunked. Plain and simple.

 

[Psab keel]

Hollywood's reaction to fan backlash is ridiculous. They are grown adults in business to make money by selling products, with many of the buyers being kids & teenagers. They should be able to handle mudslinging without stooping to that level.

It's the 21st century. Memes happen. Keyboard warriors throw turds. Get over it.

THIS!!!!!!

You know how every business these days wants you to take a survey to improve their customer experience? This is the Hollywood equivalent.

 

[AnubisGuard]

The whole story about Helena reenacting classic Indiana Jones beats sounds exactly like the kind of absurd nonsense toxic fanboy groups would come up with and I can't believe people have been spending time discussing it at all.

IMO, it's brilliant satire of the kind of thing modern studios might do, so I can see why it gained such traction.

That said:

The changes they worked with had more to do with camera placements, geography, and all that type of routine filmmaking stuff. The story itself was what it ultimately is.

You're telling me this was always a movie where Indy gets shot and then shrugs it off for twenty minutes before the movie brings it up again? That seems bizarre. A much more sensible time for him to catch a bullet in the chest would be during the aerial chaos over Greece, so I don't understand why they didn't do that instead.

 

[CopperRevan]

For what it's worth: I know people from ILM who worked on this film and, more specifically, the third act sequence where all that happens, and as far as I personally know, all those stories are not true.

The changes they worked with had more to do with camera placements, geography, and all that type of routine filmmaking stuff. The story itself was what it ultimately is.

Mangold has admitted in recent interviews that he did consider taking the characters back to the 1940s but that the ending didn't have the intended emotional resonance that way, which sounds pretty logical. The whole story about Helena reenacting classic Indiana Jones beats sounds exactly like the kind of absurd nonsense toxic fanboy groups would come up with and I can't believe people have been spending time discussing it at all.

I'm sorry, but you don't even agree with yourself as far as Helena's concerned because up in the thread you stated that Indy was so poorly written that everyone shines in comparison to him. Then you stated that Helena is actually less interesting than Indy in this movie. So let me get this straight...a person can outshine Indy because he is so poorly written yet is less interesting than him. How is that possible? Most of the people who have actually watched this and liked it disagree on her and Indy as well. Despite all that Lucasfilm has done to live up to the Peter crying wolf scenario with the fans, you still can't understand why fans have a bad taste in their mouth about movies of their generation and the protagonists being reconstructed? Should they expect something different when they have made a business out of doing this exact thing? Most of the leaks that came out about this movie were proven TRUE. Just because you say they got it wrong about Helena, you might want to check your own thoughts on this because it sounds like you haven't made your mind up either. Throwing "Toxic" and "fanboys" around ? I find it laughable when we say something against the movie, so many take personal offense as if they wrote it themselves. If the movie is good then it should be able to stand on its own two feet no matter what anyone says, good or bad. To ignore the warning signs and produce a movie that was destined to lose a boat load of money is not the fans fault...it's theirs...they have to own it but never will.

Honestly, i have a tough time when people who have seen it say.."it was a fitting end to the series"..based on what? Even Spielberg thought Crusade was the proper ending but Lucas obviously disagreed. People disagree on things, i get it. You honestly think a character that has found The Ark and the Grail...aliens would be sitting in some apartment having a tiny retirement party and send off where he's barely known? Well of course he would because he's divorced now and lost his son...i truly get it because i don't know personally how people survive something like that. Three of my friends got killed in a car accident when i was in high school. One was my girlfriend and the other my best friend. It was devastating...watching their parents in helpless grief hurt way worse for me than my own personal pain. I still talk with and have a relationship with their parents today and i know they still are in pain 30 years later. But why did Lucasfilm decide to lay that at Indy's feet? If the goal, axccording to Harrison, was to tell a story that showed an older Indy, they surely could have done it without making him so morbid for a good portion of the movie. The gravity of just one scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark carries more gravity with it as Indy thinks Marion died in the truck explosion and how long does that scene last? Yes, i don't think the movie should have been made but when a great majority who liked it or didn't, agree that the best part of the movie exists in the fiirst 15min and that is without Helena and its deepfaked, that has to speak volumes to the mass of fans out there and that info was leaked prior to the release and yet confirmed .

 

[Cephus]

THIS!!!!!!

You know how every business these days wants you to take a survey to improve their customer experience? This is the Hollywood equivalent.

Except they don't care about the customer experience. Instead of the customer always being right, since they're the ones with the money and ultimately the power, today, Hollywood figures that anyone who doesn't agree with their ideological nonsense, they're automatically wrong and anyone who isn't buying the crap they're peddling, they've got to be an "ist" or a "phobe" of some sort because they can't accept that they just made a terrible product that the world at large doesn't want to consume.

Most people out there have regressed to immature children. It's really sad if you think about it.

 

[Psab keel]

That was my point. These YouTube critics literally wouldn't exist if the movies were by and large beloved by the fans. They only exist because Hollywood digs in its heels by deflecting any criticism, no matter how small, no matter how valid.

 

[ScourgiousJinx]

What will make this movie succeed or fail in the long run is the movie itself and everything else is free advertising for it. Lucasfilm thanks those that hate Dial of Destiny and encourages them (and everyone else) to continue to talk about it so that more people see it. Carry on.

 

[Liberance]

You're telling me this was always a movie where Indy gets shot and then shrugs it off for twenty minutes before the movie brings it up again? That seems bizarre. A much more sensible time for him to catch a bullet in the chest would be during the aerial chaos over Greece, so I don't understand why they didn't do that instead.

To me that just matches the overall clunkiness of the rest of the script. In a tighter, leaner film what you point out would probably happen. In this movie? I don't know if it's so out of place. Perhaps the shot played a role in the initial conversations about the characters going to the 1940s. Maybe the Syracuse sequence wasn't meant to be so long. It could also be a leftover from David Koepp's drafts and they left it where it was.

I'm sorry, but you don't even agree with yourself as far as Helena's concerned because up in the thread you stated that Indy was so poorly written that everyone shines in comparison to him. Then you stated that Helena is actually less interesting than Indy in this movie. So let me get this straight...a person can outshine Indy because he is so poorly written yet is less interesting than him. How is that possible? Most of the people who have actually watched this and liked it disagree on her and Indy as well. Despite all that Lucasfilm has done to live up to the Peter crying wolf scenario with the fans, you still can't understand why fans have a bad taste in their mouth about movies of their generation and the protagonists being reconstructed? Should they expect something different when they have made a business out of doing this exact thing? Most of the leaks that came out about this movie were proven TRUE. Just because you say they got it wrong about Helena, you might want to check your own thoughts on this because it sounds like you haven't made your mind up either. Throwing "Toxic" and "fanboys" around ? I find it laughable when we say something against the movie, so many take personal offense as if they wrote it themselves. If the movie is good then it should be able to stand on its own two feet no matter what anyone says, good or bad. To ignore the warning signs and produce a movie that was destined to lose a boat load of money is not the fans fault...it's theirs...they have to own it but never will.

Honestly, i have a tough time when people who have seen it say.."it was a fitting end to the series"..based on what? Even Spielberg thought Crusade was the proper ending but Lucas obviously disagreed. People disagree on things, i get it. You honestly think a character that has found The Ark and the Grail...aliens would be sitting in some apartment having a tiny retirement party and send off where he's barely known? Well of course he would because he's divorced now and lost his son...i truly get it because i don't know personally how people survive something like that. Three of my friends got killed in a car accident when i was in high school. One was my girlfriend and the other my best friend. It was devastating...watching their parents in helpless grief hurt way worse for me than my own personal pain. I still talk with and have a relationship with their parents today and i know they still are in pain 30 years later. But why did Lucasfilm decide to lay that at Indy's feet? If the goal, axccording to Harrison, was to tell a story that showed an older Indy, they surely could have done it without making him so morbid for a good portion of the movie. The gravity of just one scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark carries more gravity with it as Indy thinks Marion died in the truck explosion and how long does that scene last? Yes, i don't think the movie should have been made but when a great majority who liked it and didn't agree that the best part of the movie exists in the fiirst 15min and that is without Helena and its deepfaked that has to speak volumes to the mass of fans out there and that info was leaked prior to the release and yet confirmed .

Okay, I'm gonna use bullet points but please don't take it as a passive-aggressive thing, it's just for clarity's sake:

- All I meant by the "shine" comment was that if your main character spends the whole film dejected, I can understand some people welcoming other characters' demeanor for a change. Similar to how buddy movies usually work because of the contrast between leads.
- That doesn't mean that the more upbeat character necessarily is better written or more interesting. Shine is not the same as outshine.
- I do think Indiana Jones' character journey in this fifth movie is more interesting than Helena's, even if I don't consider it a good fit for Indiana Jones in particular.

That's point number one. Now on to number two:

- I do understand why some people don't like this take on the character. Heck, I don't like it myself. However, I don't get lost in weird conspiratorial rabbit holes about gender politics in order to channel my frustration, as unfortunately a lot of people do (I'm just speaking in a general sense here!).
- Fandoms are oftentimes toxic. This is a shame, but it's the reality. It's tribal behavior that sometimes leads to people yelling at each other over ridiculous stuff like fictional characters' sexual orientation, videogame console preferences, football match results, you name it. At worst, it can even result in death threats. Whenever there are problems like those, it's better to face them first from the inside instead of adopting a defensive stance and feeling attacked by the criticism. I'm a fan of a number of things, but at the same time I have no issue admitting that fandoms just plain suck a lot of times.

As for the rest:

- I pretty much agree with you on the choice of giving Indy such a bleak storyline, so I'm not quite sure why you're so bothered by some of what I've been saying... other than because I just don't think Helena has much to do with it? Is that it?
- People like the opening probably because it feels slightly more like the other four movies. Again, I'd say regardless of Helena. It's a sequence that tries to be fun and fast-paced. And it has a lot of superficial elements in it like Nazis in full force, a younger Harrison Ford, or a Judeo-Christian artifact, which are essential for a certain type of person to enjoy these movies. That's my guess.

 

[Zuiun]

That was my point. These YouTube critics literally wouldn't exist if the movies were by and large beloved by the fans. They only exist because Hollywood digs in its heels by deflecting any criticism, no matter how small, no matter how valid.

They exist because they want clicks.

There have ALWAYS been hypercritical fans. You know the ones. They always have the "no true fan" argument, or will go on rants about why this or that is garbage. Some of them truly dislike the property, but some of them just get off on stirring the pot and being contrary. The only difference now is that they have a very public platform and the ability to feed off the attention they get.

These very vocal critics wouldn't have the voice they do if YouTube didn't exist.

 

[Cephus]

That was my point. These YouTube critics literally wouldn't exist if the movies were by and large beloved by the fans. They only exist because Hollywood digs in its heels by deflecting any criticism, no matter how small, no matter how valid.

You'd still have people out there reviewing movies. They've always existed and always will. What you'd lose are all the idiots who are hate-watching things and whose channels exist only as rage-bait.

I think we could do with less of those.

 

[Psab keel]

Opportunists have existed since the beginning of time. That's one of humanity's many flaws. Trust me, I'm not denying the existence of awful people. I know from experience having worked in retail for decades. Lol

Though commentary by definition needs a topic to comment on. YouTube is one the few areas that more accurately reflects the opinions of the fans than the media or Hollywood ever did. That said, Doomcock and others like him don't speak for me just like Hollywood doesn't speak for you.

I think the more honest conversation is holding both sides to account.

 

[CopperRevan]

That was my point. These YouTube critics literally wouldn't exist if the movies were by and large beloved by the fans. They only exist because Hollywood digs in its heels by deflecting any criticism, no matter how small, no matter how valid.

Exactly, remember Siskel and Ebert? They were movie critics. Were they right all the time? No, they disagreed a lot but i never heard them say fans are just unreasonable and are to blame for the success or failure of the movie itself.

What will make this movie succeed or fail in the long run is the movie itself and everything else is free advertising for it. Lucasfilm thanks those that hate Dial of Destiny and encourages them (and everyone else) to continue to talk about it so that more people see it. Carry on.

You're probably right and i wanted to just bail from this anyways and didn't...lol..that's on me.

To me that just matches the overall clunkiness of the rest of the script. In a tighter, leaner film what you point out would probably happen. In this movie? I don't know if it's so out of place. Perhaps the shot played a role in the initial conversations about the characters going to the 1940s. Maybe the Syracuse sequence wasn't meant to be so long. It could also be a leftover from David Koepp's drafts and they left it where it was.



Okay, I'm gonna use bullet points but please don't take it as a passive-aggressive thing, it's just for clarity's sake:

- All I meant by the "shine" comment was that if your main character spends the whole film dejected, I can understand some people welcoming other characters' demeanor for a change. Similar to how buddy movies usually work because of the contrast between leads.
- That doesn't mean that the more upbeat character necessarily is better written or more interesting. Shine is not the same as outshine.
- I do think Indiana Jones' character journey in this fifth movie is more interesting than Helena's, even if I don't consider it a good fit for Indiana Jones in particular.

That's point number one. Now on to number two:

- I do understand why some people don't like this take on the character. Heck, I don't like it myself. However, I don't get lost in weird conspiratorial rabbit holes about gender politics in order to channel my frustration, as unfortunately a lot of people do (I'm just speaking in a general sense here!).
- Fandoms are oftentimes toxic. This is a shame, but it's the reality. It's tribal behavior that sometimes leads to people yelling at each other over ridiculous stuff like fictional characters' sexual orientation, videogame console preferences, football match results, you name it. At worst, it can even result in death threats. Whenever there are problems like those, it's better to face them first from the inside instead of adopting a defensive stance and feeling attacked by the criticism. I'm a fan of a number of things, but at the same time I have no issue admitting that fandoms just plain suck a lot of times.

As for the rest:

- I pretty much agree with you on the choice of giving Indy such a bleak storyline, so I'm not quite sure why you're so bothered by some of what I've been saying... other than because I just don't think Helena has much to do with it? Is that it?
- People like the opening probably because it feels slightly more like the other four movies. Again, I'd say regardless of Helena. It's a sequence that tries to be fun and fast-paced. And it has a lot of superficial elements in it like Nazis in full force, a younger Harrison Ford, or a Judeo-Christian artifact, which are essential for a certain type of person to enjoy these movies. That's my guess.

ok, i'm gonna use your bullet points too as a response.
-thanks for clarifying the shine comment
-i agree things can get way too heated and personal...especially over a stupid movie
-I'm not bothered specifically by you, i'm just trying to sort through responses and reasons why people like it, why people are upset about the negativity of this film and Lucasfilm as a whole but, in my opinion, haven't really given good reasons to actually watch this movie or that it should even be made.
-It's not just a Helena thing...it's a change the protagonist thing followed by yet another shoehorned british, brunette female that is smarter, more powerful and above reproach thing. We get it, women rock!!! My wife does...I love women...especially brunettes...lol, my wife is a brunette and i had thing for, like a lot of us did, for a very popular brunette in Carrie Fisher. So please don't think i have something against women, i don't. It's just weird to me that KK has type cast now the female lead as the leader of Lucasfilm.
-I have something against the way Disney/Lucasfilm has conducted themselves with the properties they now own because they have shown a pattern of doing what i have just described. How people can't see that is beyond me. To say there is no conspiracy, fine, i'll use a different word.."pattern".
-If i had a pattern of, every time we meet in public, i slap you in the face, then the next time you see me what do you think would happen? One of 3 things...1.Flinch 2. Punch me in the face back or 3. run away to avoid another slap. The more likely response being run away or flinch if you decided to get close. I only use this as an example, i'm a non-violent person. If this is the fans, most will run away and some are flinching right now but like me, i'm in the position where i'm probably too close and i refuse to give them one more opportunity to slap me in the face again. So i'm yelling at a distance to no avail trying to encourage them to change there ways or the money goes bye-bye.

Last Point-i think we can both be cordial with each other even though we disagree, or agree on a lot of things too. Thanks for trying to clarify. We are talking Indiana Jones here and that can raise a lot of passion. I can't wait until this new generation finally gets something new, a great story, a great adventure that they can talk about like we did many years ago. I have nothing against you. Do i believe Disney/Lucasfilm has something against us? Yes, because our generation is affecting their pocket books in big ways right now and honestly i think they may have underestimated how difficult this was going to be to take these franchises on and try to turn a corner. Which is why i felt they should have immediately turned it, unapologetically but that defeats their purpose of acquiring it in the first place but they wanted their cake and eat it too and are finding out now how hard that really is. You can't shake the foundation of the house and not expect the walls and roof to collapse on your head.

thanks for listening, i appreciate the discussion.

 

[p51]

Yeah. Do dollar theaters even still exist?

That's a good question. Where I live, there never were any, but I grew up in a town with one and enjoyed one in a town near where I was stationed in the military (that was a great one as every ticket included a bottomless popcorn bucket and large soda, very reasonably priced). Now that you've asked the question, I wonder if second-run theaters still exist!

 

[Lord Boron]

That's a good question. Where I live, there never were any, but I grew up in a town with one and enjoyed one in a town near where I was stationed in the military (that was a great one as every ticket included a bottomless popcorn bucket and large soda, very reasonably priced). Now that you've asked the question, I wonder if second-run theaters still exist!

I think second-run is now called streaming.