Edward Scissorhands study/WIP *28/5/13 UPDATE*

[Froggie]

Edward Scissorhands study and WIP thread.

This thread is now about the study and construction of the Scissorhands props.
The costume has another thread in the costume forum.



I decided to hide the old OP because it took up too much space and didn't add much to the build thread.
The old OP is here

Spoiler

New member here.

I've lurked on and off for a number of years but never found any reason to join until now.

I made a quick Edward Scissorhands costume for halloween 2012, to be precise it's the pants/shirt/suspenders version bar the safety pins.


The actual work came down to about 2 1/2 weeks which was mostly spent on the gloves, but the research took a couple of months prior to that. The initial goal was to make the whole suit, buckles, belts and all but that plan was soon scrapped in favor of the less intense but more manageable version with the shirt and pants.
The reason for this is that I'm a perfectionist and, and even though I gathered material to make most of the leather suit, I felt that I'd never finish in a manner that I'd be satisfied with.

The base is a pair of thin, black leather gloves that I elongated with the cuffs of a really old thrift store bomber jacket that I had from an older costume. The blades are made out of cardboard of different thicknesses glued and taped together at grain angles to enhance the strength as they'd be too brittle and bendable otherwise, and in areas covered with paper machier pulp and sanded. The handles were real scissor handles I took from broken scissors and the pruning scissor handles I made from Fimo clay.

The base for the hand coverings were pieced together of scraps of cardboard taped together and then covered with paper machier and paper machier pulp.
The "limbs" were made from Fimo clay reinforced with thick metal wire looped at the ends to connect them.

There are more parts in there including metal, pieces of sewing thread spools and little knicknacks that I found to be good standins for general shapes.

The whole final assembly was done with hot glue, which in retrospect was not a great idea, seeing as how the gloves are not very thick. Not recommended for those with tender hands.

Needless to say I had to take a lot of shortcuts and leave out a lot of details, but as standin/template/first prototype they do their part.
It's actually the first time paper machier does not hold up for me. They saw a lot of wear and have broken in places after only two real showings.
I won first place in a contest with the costume, but don't have any of the pictures that were taken. Once I get my hands on them I might upload if they hold up to inspection.

My next goal is to create an accurate full costume, and will be making an analysis/WIP thread for it soon.
Qus

I apologize for the crappy image quality. I really need to make some kind of studio for photographing.

 

[Froggie]

Re: Prototype Edward Scissorhands

I found a picture that was taken during the Halloween party. Sadly it's really dark and I messed up the hair that night. I actually have enough (or too much hair) to make it work, but I went overboard with products and it doesn't have that "poof".

Anyway, now that I have some free time again I'll start making a better version, starting with an in depth analysis of materials and patterns.

I do apologize for the demon eyes. I'd patch it up digitally but don't feel that the image is good enough quality to warrant it.

 

[laellee]

Re: Prototype Edward Scissorhands

Those look TREMENDOUS. Nicely done.

 

[Froggie]

Re: Prototype Edward Scissorhands

Thank you. They're the basic right blade shapes, but far from the detailed versions I'm aiming for.

Question: do you think it'd be better to convert this thread into the work in progress thread, or should I make a new one from scratch to avoid renaming the title and avoid confusion?

Q2: is there some regulation against posting screen shots? I've tried to find some information in the faq's but can't seem to find anything of note. As I'm creating a go-to costume analysis which is so long overdue for this costume, it'd be good to know what rules apply to images.

Thanks again for the kind words.

 

[laellee]

Re: Prototype Edward Scissorhands

They look great. I always wanted to do these for a costume, but then I'd have to give up the facial hair. What a lame reason on my part.

1- I would just amend the thread title with W.I.P. on the end, and maybe just add an update edit in the first post with the date and saying that it's now a work in progress. I do this in an edit of the first post:
***** 5/27 UPDATE This is now a W.I.P., I'm refining my initial design, etc etc etc.....****

2- I'm sure somebody else will pop in to answer with better specifics, but I have never seen any problems raised over posting screenshots, whether it be from the actual film or behind the scenes/vignettes/etc..

Good luck with this!

 

[Froggie]

Re: Prototype Edward Scissorhands

It's a very complex costume to be sure. If you have enough facial hair that it'll take a while to grow back that can be the deciding factor.
I've just always liked the design, and it's oddly balanced despite having tons of details all over the place. Also, I can't grow sufficient facial hair yet, so that issue doesn't really stop me. =D
I got tons of feedback on the party saying I should make a serious attempt at the whole thing, and that really motivated me to try. I also got to attend a few days of molding classes on my year of basic arts, and it really boosted my confidence in how to use molding materials.

1.I'll rename the thread once I have something to show of the wip process. Had to do a double take and sure enough, you're behind the robocop project I found months ago and swore I had to revisit. I'll probably model the hands in blender and have them printed out, and then pull molds of them to create a way of making parts that'll last. Are there any modeling tutorials you'd recommend or are you self taught? I've modeled quite a bit but this is probably the biggest project I've taken on.

2.I'll just create the study and alter it if anything comes up then. There are so many details it's gonna take a lot of pictures to cover it, but that's part of the fun I guess. =)

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm going to try to make it to halloween, despite it being my costume last year. I'd love to go to a convention and see other costumes, maybe even meet others from the forum.

 

[laellee]

Re: Prototype Edward Scissorhands

I use 3dsmax and Blender. I already had some experience in modeling, but I self-taught Blender starting last November I think. It has it's downfalls, but I am so comfortable with it now, I design most of my 'rough sketches' and prototypes on Blender even if I am going to finish them on other software. No specific tutorials stick out for me, I just googled and youtubed when I hit a stepping stone and reworked the problem until I found a solution. Most solutions were pretty obvious after I found them, but that's how it goes I guess.
Heck, 3d modeling or not, I would rebuild as accurate as possible in whatever materials, and then mold all of your parts to cast for yourself and a few kits. If your first run at it is any indication of what you can do, I think there are more than a couple of people who would be interested in a kit or completed 'hands'. Especially with resined blades, something people can wear to cons or busy parties without getting into trouble. I look forward to seeing what you do with this. thumbsup

 

[Froggie]

Re: Prototype Edward Scissorhands

Okay, I had pretty much the same tactic in learning modeling. I often find myself looking for the most efficient or correct way of doing something. Sadly it sometimes makes me unable to just make my own way and use what I know and do well, but I'm actually getting over it with projects like this.

The real reason I'd do 3d modeling is to be able to adjust the fitting easier for others who don't share my hand size. The originals are pretty much as snug as I could make, and getting into them with hands bigger than mine is pretty much impossible without destroying them in the process. I do have experience with real life sculpting, and now that I have a space to do it I might go that route. It all comes down to how easy it is to find a 3d printing service with a decent price tag.
I'll either make a mold of my hands in real life or 3d scan them and work on them from there. In any case I'll have a very good base to work from.
The bad moon buckle is probably going to be 3d in any case, as it'll be much more convenient for me and others who want a 3d print.

I'll cast them in resin for sure, I've been curious about the techniques and I think it'll hold up much better than the paper-mâché did, as well as being reusable, leaving the painting process more open and fun to learn. It'll also make me more experienced for future projects including resin casting.
With good paintwork I think they'll be very convincing, and seeing as how people thought my very obvious cardboard blades were the real deal and kept clear, people might still be questioned about wearing these in big scenes.

I've ordered The Winston Effect just now, which will arrive in a few days. It'll hopefully get me some insight into the process and some more references to work from.

Thanks for all of the encouragement. I'll post again and start the wip for real when I've finished the first iteration of the costume study.

 

[Froggie]

Re: Prototype Edward Scissorhands

Now I've made the thread a WIP and documentation.
I decided to start putting the study stuff in the first post instead of spreading it out in the thread.

I also realized that I put this thread in the Prop section of the forum, which clearly was a mistake.
I'll kindly contact a moderator and request it moved to the Costume forum.

Any critique or ideas on any of this is most welcome.

 

[laellee]

Re: Edward Scissorhands study and WIP *28/5/13 UPDATE*

I would hold off on having it moved, IMHO. The prop section is more appropriate for the 'hands', as they are as much props themselves as a part of a larger costume. I compare it to Freddy's glove; I'd rather have a prop thread for his glove and a costume thread for his sweater/hat/etc... Otherwise, somebody interested in building the glove may have to wade through a larger thread covering the search for his sweater, where to find his hat/how to make it/weather it/ his mask itself and who makes the best one/etc. etc. etc. Anyways, IMHO I think this is great where it is.
Also, putting the main updates/details in the first thread is awesome, especially with your update notice in the title. There are threads that get new posts all the time, but most of it ends up being bantering between members. I only click when I see an update listed in the title.

 

[Froggie]

Re: Edward Scissorhands study and WIP *28/5/13 UPDATE*

Okay. I'm really not used to thinking in that kind of fidelity concerning documentation, but I can see how it'd be useful to separate the hands from the costume from the makeup et.c.
Thanks for the input.
Should I move the costume study to another thread and focus on the hands here then?

OP updates: considering the kind of research I'll have to do to get it close enough for me to accept it I'll probably have to mask images with spoilers. Then again, focusing on the scissorhands alone in this thread should help keep the length of it down. Another good reason to separate the topics.

Thanks again for helping me get started.

 

[Doctor Octoroc]

I'm a little late to the thread, but I made a pair of these using the Hot Toys 18" figure as a reference and came up with these, made from basswood, craft foam, and a bunch of random other parts. Since this is a WIP thread for a build that others may reference for their own, it may be useful to have my progress shown here.

I documented the entire build on my Behance page so people can see how I made them. There are additional photos on Flickr as well.

This year I've decided to spend a bit of dough to have the blades 3d printed since I already have the models drafted up - they just needed tweaking, and I wanted to slim up the left thumb part since it turned out a bit larger than I wanted. I'm re-making the gloves from a faux leather fabric that will be sewn and worn as I see fit. I didn't properly weather the blades either, so I'm planning to do that for Halloween this year. If so desired, I can post that progress here as well.

 

[Froggie]

You are far from late. I have been working on and off on this because of trouble with finding time to do some long hours, but it's getting there.

It's really neat that you go for the toy version as reference. Your hands are pretty close as far as I can tell from what I can see of the toy online. Do you have one as a reference or do you pull from photos only?

My issue with the cardboard was that it didn't hold up and started to bend and break despite my reinforcements. It might be possible to make them more sturdy with some kind of resin coat, but I have set my mind on developing my molding and casting skills, so I'm shooting for a cast set of hands.

Did you print on regular paper and then transfer to the different materials by hand, or did you glue it on? I thought I might try to make a fitting tryout using the printing technique before I send it to the 3d printers, but I don't know if I need to have thicker paper and a different printer.

Also, did you have any trouble with the "limbs" weighing down the fingers and forcing movement? I found on my first pair that the limbs attached to the outside of the fingers tended to twist the finger in a disatisfactory way.

I've also given up on my first idea (to build them from scratch in 3d without my hands as reference). I'm waiting for my paycheck so that I can spend some money on molding materials and then cast a set of base hands for myself. From that I will first try to scan them to make a base 3d model, and from there create an accurate 3d version that I can use with pepakura and later 3d printing.
I'm also in the process of creating a customized dressmakers dummy by casting myself. That way the sewing of the suit will be much easier.

I've bought the Winston Effect, and got some pointers from there, as well as some photos of the unpainted hands.

If you want to post the weathering process feel free to do so. If you could post the links that would be great, as it could be good to not mix the two projects too much in case readers get confused.

Looking forward to see where you're going with yours. Are you going for the whole thing as well, bells and whistles and all?

 

[Doctor Octoroc]

I also picked up the Winston Effect for reference but didn't get much to use from that. It's great for a general visual reference but I needed a good visual breakdown of each finger to get it right, and that's where the Hot Toys figure came in. I actually found a number of reviews that had very detailed photos of the whole toy, and many angles of the hands themselves. A Google search for "hot toys edward scissorhands" will bring up mostly pictures from those reviews. I just saved them all to my computer and cycled through them as I modeled the blades.

For the building process, I measured more approximately with what my fingers would fit into on the blades, then built the CAD around them and tweaked it as I built them from the basswood. That's the advantage of a more hands-on build. In the end though, the best way to fit them so they didn't twist and slide was to have them big enough for m fingers to fit in easily but with the addition of the leather gloves I used as the base for the gauntlets, it fit nice and tight so they didn't slide anywhere. I basically hot glued each finger of the blades to the glove itself while wearing it. Yes, it was quite hot, but worth the pain! As a result, the hot glue globs sort of filled in the space and left a general shape imprint of each of my fingers with the gloves, essentially filling in the empty space between the gloves and the blades. While putting them on, some twisting was required to straighten them out, but once on, they fit great.

I originally wanted to have the four adjacent blades of each hand attached side by side relative to the joints in my fingers where they would bend, but struggles with finding the appropriate hardware that would join them and allow rotation without extruding too much into the hollow blade bases where my fingers should fit. I had a few occasions where I needed to cut the end of a screw or bolt used for decorative purposes on the blades because they were too far into the blade where my fingers fit. Doing this with functional hardware however wasn't an option since the bolt cutters messed up the ends of the pieces I cut with them.

For the new 3d printed versions, I debated modeling them with those hardware bits so they would snap together and twist the way they should, but in the end, having more free movement is more efficient for using the gloves in a public setting. If they're limited by such lateral movement, they would be very hard to use for drinking, eating, etc., more so than they already are naturally.

For the leather portions, I printed out the paper versions to construct like a papercraft project would, and fit them to my hands with some tweaking, then traced them to the craft foam, cut them out, and assembled them edge to edge with hot glue. I experienced problems with the foam when they tore too easily, hence the new ones will be made from a faux leather material I picked up at the fabric store for $8 per yrd. I'll use the same patterns since the ones I used before were very close, but have to leave 1/4" around the edges to fold under while sewing them together. A full yard is probably enough but I got 1.5 just to be safe since I want to redo the neck piece as well.

 

[Froggie]

The Winston Effect was to me more of an insight into the process rather than perfect reference, but I agree that it didn't have a lot of new stuff. It does give you a decently good look at the unpainted hands though, and an insight into just how many pairs they had to make for the movie. As the pair I've seen in photographs from exhibitions are very, very worn it seems that they also ran into the problem of the hands being in a vulnerable position.

I thought you were going for a replica costume of the toy version, as the movie hands and the toy hands seem different in some key aspects.

In that case, I'd like to disclose that while I was searching for references I found a collection of pictures in the gallery of TRPF, taken of the mannequin that was suited up in the real hero costume, complete with screen-worn hands. Those pictures are simply enormous. They are sharp and almost 4000x6000 pixels, from a decent variety of angles. The only downside is that the belts are arranged differently from the movie, some of the materials detailed seem to be different and the hands are so torn up, especially in the areas that are stressed when put on and taken off, that you need to cross reference with the movie versions a lot to make them complete. The flash also leaves color a mystery, but the resolution of these images really help in pinpointing the hands. I do not remember who it is that took them but they are totally worth checking out, if only to see some very steady camerawork.


I can tell you that I've shared your hot-glue induced pain. It seemed like a good idea at the time. The other people at the party noticeably cringed when told how it was done. I am however under the delusion that the originals were modeled very closely to Depp's hands, and so there was no room for the glove fingers to go. That would mean that the gloves are actually cut and fastened just at the edge of where the finger parts end. This could potentially lead to a better fit. Or a worse one. Only experimenting can give us that answer I guess.


I didn't really understand "joining" part on the case of the fingers. Did you want the fingers to be jointed, like they are with a rod for rotation like that of the toy? If that is the case then maybe press fasteners or pop rivets could do the trick? They don't leave much on either side to interfere with your fingers, but then again they are pretty much permanent, so I would advise caution before rushing in. Might be worth a try with a mockup made of pepakura paper though.


Question; did you make your gloves with your fingers fully splayed out? I did the mistake of not maximizing the width of the fingers, especially the pinky, and I had to make adjustments to get the blades to not knock into each other. I agree that the hands are hard enough to control as is without deliberately trying to hinder movement. We actually made a game of having people try to eat a single piece of candy like he tries to eat carrots in the movie, which became more and more hilarious as the night went by and the glasses became more empty. I think it was one of the deciding factors in the overwhelming victory in the costume contest, to be totally honest.


If you got naturally tanned raw leather you could tool it into something truly marvelous. Rawhide leather is pliable when wet and can be hardened to tremendous strength. It can also be tooled to take on shapes and textures, as well as be painted. There is also the issue of not having to fold the edges at all, you just trim them neatly and polish with wax. This is just an alternative that came to me when I read of your plans with the faux leather. Tooling leather requires a lot of practice though, and the hands are a very complex shape, so maybe it's not good for a first project after all. Rawhide is also one of those materials that might hurt your wallet.

On that note, I've gotten myself some pretty good leather tools with a gift certificate I've had since christmas, so I'll be trying my hands on at least making the hip belt, because I just know that nothing I find in a store will do in regards to size, and anything I do find will be chrome tanned and therefore t will not take the texture working at all.

Something that just came to my mind to ask you: If you attempt the whole costume, what is your plan regarding the grosgrain medal? It is one of the things I both dread and look forward to do, and I'm interested in if you've given it any thought just yet.

 

[Doctor Octoroc]

Honestly, I never thought of doing the whole costume. I'm a fan of formal wear to begin with (I've been known to sport a bow tie rather regularly and many of my friends don't recognize me without one haha) so I go right to the dressed up version, which leaves only the neck, and hands exposed. It's ideal for ease of construction as well as being my preferred look, and I haven't taken a close enough look at the outfit to begin to know what your referring to. Initial thought of doing the whole costume however is just mind boggling with how many overlapping layers there are. My girlfriend is a fashion designer/theater costumer and upon asking her how complicated something like that would be, she simply replied "you don't want to know".

Yeah, me and leather wouldn't mix well...and since the actual construction of the gloves is more like pepakura than actual leather working, I doubt the material would behave well in my hands. I actually found a material that matches the exact texture I was going for with the crackle treatment I applied to the foam versions, and should be relatively easy to construct by more traditional sewing methods. I only have a month to finish them so I may save a more accurate material for the next build.

To answer your question about the fingers in the gloves, since I designed them in CAD, I exported a hand from the male figure in Poser and resized it to the dimensions of my own hand, then build the model for the blades around that. I made sure the fingers were all facing the same direction and angle but spaced apart to allow for the relatively thin walls of the hollow blade bases to move between. And yeah, I practiced the movement a LOT. It came down to the direction that the blades faced, so that only open ends would move away from each other and toward each other only until they overlapped slightly, as regular scissors do. I pretty much manually restricted each finger to only move up and to the relative middle point of the full rotation, where each adjacent finger would do the same, only in the opposite direction. I gotta say, after a few hours, it came relatively naturally once the muscle memory kicked in.

I'll definitely want to check out those reference pictures before I send the blades to the printers. Since I'm doing the "suited up" version of the costume, I'm not AS concerned about the screen accuracy of the leather portions - their more suggestive as a good portion is covered by the rolled up sleeves of the white dress shirt - but I'd love to model blades that are that much more accurate to the originals if I can.

 

[Froggie]

So you're going for the suited up version when he's in the tv studio then? I have to say that's a really good choice. He looks fine dressed up like that, and as you mentioned it might be a lot easier to pull off. It's even more of a plus if you like those kind of clothes too.
As for the nightmare of doing the whole costume, it is more the number of different materials than the layers used, at least as far as my eyes can see. There are layers to be sure, but he real tricky part is finding all the different kinds of stuff that's all over this thing. My other build thread is so far just dedicated to breaking it down into manageable chunks. I did just now find a really good reference pic in a larger resolution from the Tim Burton Lacma exhibit, and it seems more and more that I'm either going to have to go there myself, or send someone with a really good camera and a few hours of free time.

If you only have a month then I'd say go for what works, not for what's perfect. I've done the mistake of trying to make stuff better than I had time for, and it never worked.

I've looked for the images in the gallery, but to no avail. I could swear that's where I found them, but maybe they've been taken down. Or maybe I'm just not looking in the right place.
Anyway, while searching I found some more hd closeups of the gloves, so here are some links if you want to check them out.

Some kind of promotional picture of depp with the fingers in focus.
http://onlyhdwallpapers.com/wallpap...rities_desktop_1900x2411_wallpaper-423593.jpg

One of a set of pictures of an exhibit on flickr.
Resultat av Googles bildsökning efter http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7239/6932039386_272e3a49ba_o.jpg

A really good frame from the movie of the hands, especially the top of the left fingers
http://www.heyuguys.co.uk/images/2013/08/Edward-Scissorhands.jpg

As I try to get as close to the movie originals as possible it's mostly just trying to catch the details in screenshots and piecing it together somehow.

I might have misunderstood before, but are you going to 3d print the hand "cover" as well, or only the fingers? I thought you were only going to do the fingers that way.

Another inquiry: what are you going to do about the metal springs that connect some of the fingers, specifically the one connecting the left thumb and index finger? As far as I can tell that's the spring from a pruning shear, essentially a thin metal sheet that's been bent and compressed to perform the job. I do believe it's fake in the costume though, as the force would make it difficult if not impossible to move the thumb upward. My advice there would be to make it out of that paper that looks like metal, and attach it with discrete rubber bands or something like that.

 

[HMS Mike]

Hi Guys,
The backs of the hands and palms are rubber on all of the hands. The inside glove is spandex. I will see if I can find my photos and post a few for you.

HMS Mike

 

[Doctor Octoroc]

I was planning to 3d print all the pieces that are meant to be solid (mainly the metal pieces) and isn't an easily found item, including all of the blades and a few of the hardware pieces that connect the blades to the gloves, or are fastened to the gloves - like that plate on the right hand connecting the first finger to the gauntlet. I might even do the same for the bone hinges since they were found items I shaved down to more closely resemble the prop.

As for the handles, I'm likely going to use the handles from my first try. If I have time, I'd like to plasti-dip them instead of painting. About half of them look accurate and the others don't. This strikes a nerve with me but while printing the blades is affordable, with them being hollow and all, the handles would have to be solid and push the budget a bit too far. I'm also not as experienced in modelling complicated, rounded shapes, so I may do a round 2 hunt for more scissors handles that are closer to the props. With the time crunch, however, I may have to make exceptions. Also, hack-sawing through the handles to get the blades out was a big pain, I'm not looking forward to doing that again.

Another problem I need to address is the found hardware - screws, bolts, etc. I had a huge issue with the wing nuts coming loose. On several occasions I had to ask complete strangers to screw them back on or tighten them up, haha. I made a few friends that night, but I'd prefer to focus on having a good time, rather than re-attaching pieces of my costume every 10 minutes. I suppose a dab of crazy glue around the outside edge would provide enough resistance to the nuts to not twist off?

As for the hand covers, I made them as part of the gloves the first time around. Since it was craft foam, it worked just as well to either material - that plate I mentioned above on the right hand, that was foam on mine, as was a few of the washers and even some of the blades were a mix of foam and wood - namely the handle on the left forefinger and both thumbs. They'd be thin enough that it wouldn't cost a fortune to 3d print, but again, a cheaper material would severely improve the budget.

Not sure about that spring on the left thumb. I actually put off that part for the first build and completely forgot about it by the time I was putting on the finishing touches. That's another piece I've been trying to handle with a found item but, like you said, an actual spring would cause issues.

And for the interest of whoever, here's the complete costume with my girlfriend as Kim. She made her dress from scratch.

Also, here's the current state of the gloves.

 

[Froggie]

HMS Mike: Those are huge news to me! I thought all of the "hard parts" were in resin, and that there was some kind of seam that split apart to allow for the actual hands to be inserted. Now that you mention it and I look in the book, the covering for the palm and back of the hand is another color than the fingers, and it confused me how the seemingly solid structure could bend in the movie from shot to shot. I must have been quite insane to not understand before.

Thanks a ton for that snippet of information, that is forth pretty much its worth in gold, and new reference photos would be absolutely outstanding!


Doctor Octoroc:

With budget and time in mind your best bet is probably to look around for similar scissors. Have a look at fleemarkets and online auction houses, you never know what you can find there.

On the wingnuts coming off my advice would be to put a spot of glue on the inside of the actual nut. That way it adheres to the bolt and not the paint or surface of the glove, which can come off with the stress, and that would look terrible.
As for what glue to use I think it is of little relevance. There are special compounds made for locking nuts to bolts, but they're made for safety standards that far exceeds what you need here. Hot glue would probably more than suffice.

The spring can probably be made by buying a sheet of metallic paper from a crafts store, kind of like this here.
http://www.artscreating.com/up_files/image/2012-10-5/paper2Dcardboard.jpg

Then you cut a trapezoid out of it in the right size and curl it around a pen or something. I'll look to see how exactly a shear spring looks when unfolded, that way you could have a working one, albeit a very weak one.
It would probably break after a while, but eh, it can be replaced.

I remember seeing that picture when I was looking for information on how to make the gloves a year ago. Yours seem to hold up much better than mine did =)