I'd say anything people are labeling "woke" is a societal issue, not political. I'm sure if anyone thought it was political the mods would have stepped in by now.
Disney could sell Lucasfilm ?
- Thread starter bwayne64
- Start date
drusselmeyer
Master Member
I saw something interesting. Find a translator site and set it to Russian. Then type in "shocked".
I can't relate to perfection because I'm imperfect. A lot of modern female protagonists are either perfect, or their struggles are easily overcome which makes it virtually impossible to have any emotional connection to them. The female leads of the past were written by competent writers who understood: "No conflict, no story." That's why people didn't complain.
Most rational men aren't threatened by strong women. I know because I'm married to the strongest one I know. But even she isn't perfect. She's flawed just like the rest of us mortals. I want my characters to be the same. Relatable. For every Rey there's a Princess Leia that puts her to shame. My wife is a Leia. The Rey's of the world can't hold a lightsaber to her.
Most rational men aren't threatened by strong women. I know because I'm married to the strongest one I know. But even she isn't perfect. She's flawed just like the rest of us mortals. I want my characters to be the same. Relatable. For every Rey there's a Princess Leia that puts her to shame. My wife is a Leia. The Rey's of the world can't hold a lightsaber to her.
drusselmeyer
Master Member
You forgot to add the latest SW trilogy where a female protagonist stars in the greatest sci Fi fantasy ever without any plotholes or errors in the storytelling.
The middle chapter being the greatest cinematic masterpiece of all time. George Lucas could not have helmed a film of such quality in his prime!
We can shut down the entire film industry now since nothing more of any significance can be said.
We are so satisfied.
The middle chapter being the greatest cinematic masterpiece of all time. George Lucas could not have helmed a film of such quality in his prime!
We can shut down the entire film industry now since nothing more of any significance can be said.
We are so satisfied.
drusselmeyer
Master Member
Yeah, I know, I know. Belzebub has a devil set aside for me, FOR ME saying that, but I thought it was funny.
HeartBlade
Sr Member
I completely agree.
My rant isnt all minority/female-led movies are good and all critics are haters. Its more, the argument "go woke, go broke" is a reductive dumb catchphrase that doesnt address the actual issue and is propagated by lazy "critics" who cant or wont bother to analyze if a movie is objectively bad or just subjective to their tastes (and yes, I do think any work of art or literature can be objectively assessed to an extent. You can like the Room but it is objectively a bad movie based on the acting, story, and film shots).
I agree that alot of modern female-led movies have been terrible but that is due to the writing, not the fact that the protagonists were female. Ghostbusters 2018 didnt have a clear story, relied on cliches, and poorly executed jokes. If you delve into the making, its not because the actresses were bad but because the director was incompetent and basically said "hey, these ladies are standup comedians. Let them make the jokes."
Captain Marvel is terrible because the hero is literally superman with no weaknesses. Would be a fun video game but watching a person who easily trounces her enemies with no opposition is boring. No "kryptonite" that the villain can use against her to catch her off guard. Insane power that she can literally solo Thanos' ship and Thanos himself. Same with Rey.
Tell a good story and most people will go watch imo. There will still be people that complain its "woke propaganda" but if the movie is good, it will still make money despite these critics.
Absolutely.
I can tell you specifically why Rey, or the female Ghostbusters are awfully written and they simply don't work as stories. I can also tell you why Eleven, Max and Nancy from Stranger Things are totally awesome and how their story is engaging. I agree with you that it's unhelpful to just broadly talk about "wokeism" constantly, though I do see the reason why people generally talk about it when it comes to entertainment. I also take issue with people constantly referring to characters/ fans as being "toxic". Ultimately it always comes down to how well you can explain why you like or dislike a story which is why I get frustrated when discussions like these are filled with the most simplistic rationale and it boils down to "It was awesome," or "It sucked". We're a community of detail obsessives over props. It only makes sense that we would be able to break down in detail why a story does or doesn't work. It's also important to keep the discussion on the CONTENT, not the personalities discussing the content. The second it devolves into ad hominens, you're missing the point entirely.
I think the frustration that so many of us "haters" have with a lot of our favorite franchises has to do with the poison that it is identity politics. It's infected so many amazing stories that never addressed them and frankly don't belong whatsoever in mainstream films. Arthouse or independant films are another story. If you're making a mainstream blockbuster, you're going to have more success if you're just trying to entertain people and not preach to them. It's also unhelpful to ignore the basic rules of fiction. Again, we're not discussing something esoteric like Eraserhead. Those types of films embrace ambiguity, and atmosphere, sometimes in place of character development. That's another discussion entirely.
We're talking about Star Wars (or insert mainstream tentpole here) and they all follow a standard formula for fiction. First, second, third act, protagonist character arc, the hero's journey, foreshadowing, dramatic irony, foils, shadow characters, unreliable narrators, etc. There's a reason why the formula is successful and copping to "art is subjective" is only stating the obvious. Professional critics wouldn't be able to do their job if there were no objective standards by which to compare different stories. Otherwise you couldn't honestly say that one story is better than another, but people rely on that cognitive dissonance to defend absolute trash stories by claiming there IS no standard. Yes. Yes there is. Saying otherwise means you're not even in the realm of having a worthwhile discussion. At the end of the day everyone's mileage may vary, but being so arrogant to claim standards don't exist is essentially admitting you (speaking generally here) have no standards.
It all boils down to whether the writer can convey their ideas clearly and entertain an audience in the process. At best they can create relatable characters who go on a journey that excites and engages the viewers. At worst it breaks the established continuity, and in some cases insults the fans because it undermines what they love about a story in the first place. We ALL want quality stories to entertain us. We ALL love movies/ TV shows. I know you and I agree that we just want them to do better. Some of us just have different ways of expressing that.
I can tell you specifically why Rey, or the female Ghostbusters are awfully written and they simply don't work as stories. I can also tell you why Eleven, Max and Nancy from Stranger Things are totally awesome and how their story is engaging. I agree with you that it's unhelpful to just broadly talk about "wokeism" constantly, though I do see the reason why people generally talk about it when it comes to entertainment. I also take issue with people constantly referring to characters/ fans as being "toxic". Ultimately it always comes down to how well you can explain why you like or dislike a story which is why I get frustrated when discussions like these are filled with the most simplistic rationale and it boils down to "It was awesome," or "It sucked". We're a community of detail obsessives over props. It only makes sense that we would be able to break down in detail why a story does or doesn't work. It's also important to keep the discussion on the CONTENT, not the personalities discussing the content. The second it devolves into ad hominens, you're missing the point entirely.
I think the frustration that so many of us "haters" have with a lot of our favorite franchises has to do with the poison that it is identity politics. It's infected so many amazing stories that never addressed them and frankly don't belong whatsoever in mainstream films. Arthouse or independant films are another story. If you're making a mainstream blockbuster, you're going to have more success if you're just trying to entertain people and not preach to them. It's also unhelpful to ignore the basic rules of fiction. Again, we're not discussing something esoteric like Eraserhead. Those types of films embrace ambiguity, and atmosphere, sometimes in place of character development. That's another discussion entirely.
We're talking about Star Wars (or insert mainstream tentpole here) and they all follow a standard formula for fiction. First, second, third act, protagonist character arc, the hero's journey, foreshadowing, dramatic irony, foils, shadow characters, unreliable narrators, etc. There's a reason why the formula is successful and copping to "art is subjective" is only stating the obvious. Professional critics wouldn't be able to do their job if there were no objective standards by which to compare different stories. Otherwise you couldn't honestly say that one story is better than another, but people rely on that cognitive dissonance to defend absolute trash stories by claiming there IS no standard. Yes. Yes there is. Saying otherwise means you're not even in the realm of having a worthwhile discussion. At the end of the day everyone's mileage may vary, but being so arrogant to claim standards don't exist is essentially admitting you (speaking generally here) have no standards.
It all boils down to whether the writer can convey their ideas clearly and entertain an audience in the process. At best they can create relatable characters who go on a journey that excites and engages the viewers. At worst it breaks the established continuity, and in some cases insults the fans because it undermines what they love about a story in the first place. We ALL want quality stories to entertain us. We ALL love movies/ TV shows. I know you and I agree that we just want them to do better. Some of us just have different ways of expressing that.
I'm a 51 year old amputee with minor hearing loss & a remaining 40% field of vision due to an infection back in my 30s, & also a HUGE MCU fan.
I've now realized that if the next iteration of The Black Panther or Black Widow aren't BOTH half blind, partially deaf, amputees, portrayed not by the best ACTORS for the job, no no, but by disabled randos that tic all the quotas, all just so I can feel better about myself instead of actually doing something with my life, then I just don't think I can bear it.
You hear that Hollywood & society in general?!?!
It's your job to compromise EVERYTHING so I can feel represented, instead of being proud of how I represent myself!
I'm going to cry on TikTok & eat Hagan Daäs until the ECHO series airs. I can feel good about the deaf girl with one leg, but I'll boycott the Daredevil episodes cause CHARLIE COX ISN'T REALLY BLIND!
I've now realized that if the next iteration of The Black Panther or Black Widow aren't BOTH half blind, partially deaf, amputees, portrayed not by the best ACTORS for the job, no no, but by disabled randos that tic all the quotas, all just so I can feel better about myself instead of actually doing something with my life, then I just don't think I can bear it.
You hear that Hollywood & society in general?!?!
It's your job to compromise EVERYTHING so I can feel represented, instead of being proud of how I represent myself!
I'm going to cry on TikTok & eat Hagan Daäs until the ECHO series airs. I can feel good about the deaf girl with one leg, but I'll boycott the Daredevil episodes cause CHARLIE COX ISN'T REALLY BLIND!
Clearly the use of a kitten, in place of a puppy, is being done to satisfy “modern audiences”…I see what you are doing there.
That’s literally how this whole thread could have happened:
Post #1: will Disney sell Lucasfilm?
Post #2: No!
Thread locked.
kamandi
Sr Member
That's grossly oversimplifying the thread. One of the discussion points I raised was Disney needs to raise a great deal of money in the near future (probably next year) for Hulu. Comcast wants out and has a binding legal agreement. Saying No to Comcast is not an option.That’s literally how this whole thread could have happened:
Post #1: will Disney sell Lucasfilm?
Post #2: No!
Thread locked.
The market value of Comcast's stake is between $30B-$60B. Disney doesn't have that money unless they sell some stuff.
About a week ago Iger spoke openly of perhaps selling off it's network TV properties (which could raise ~$8B. There was a nearly a coup internally at Disney.
Does that mean we have to boycott Bucky/ Winter Soldier because Sebastian Stan has two arms?
THANK YOU!!!Does that mean we have to boycott Bucky/ Winter Soldier because Sebastian Stan has two arms?
I finally feel SEEN!
...*sniff*...
: /
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