Clone Wars spin off “The Bad Batch” series discussion thread

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CadetTK2386

Well-Known Member
Absolutely!

A point I forgot to make was that, as far a Fennec goes-
Yes, she's the one that didn't shoot the slave girl, but she's also probably following Fett's orders, so that was more than likely his call, not hers.
Her body language towards Twi'lek slave girl made me think that was more her idea than Boba's, like Boba was indifferent towards her, he only cared about killing the potential threats, and it was Fennec who was giving her the "Go ahead, get out of here" head nod.

I can totally see morally gray/ambiguous character such as Fennec having a soft spot for children/other women, but being more than willing to shoot a local constable or a random civilian driver. We don't know Fennec's full story, she might have been an orphan/street rat herself, or been forced into some kind of indentured servitude, and those types might strike a nerve with her. We've seen plenty of other Anti-Heroes or ambiguous characters in the past across all types of media who have had the "No Women, No Kids" moral code. So, Fennec might be willing to kidnap Omega, or another kid, especially if Fennec is being hired by the Kaminoians to "Bring Her Home," but she won't kill them or go out of her way to hurt them, and it doesn't have to be a plot hole or a characterization. People are complex, messy things, and maybe that's what we're seeing here.
 

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Usagi Pilgrim

Sr Member
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Her body language towards Twi'lek slave girl made me think that was more her idea than Boba's, like Boba was indifferent towards her, he only cared about killing the potential threats, and it was Fennec who was giving her the "Go ahead, get out of here" head nod.

I can totally see morally gray/ambiguous character such as Fennec having a soft spot for children/other women, but being more than willing to shoot a local constable or a random civilian driver. We don't know Fennec's full story, she might have been an orphan/street rat herself, or been forced into some kind of indentured servitude, and those types might strike a nerve with her. We've seen plenty of other Anti-Heroes or ambiguous characters in the past across all types of media who have had the "No Women, No Kids" moral code. So, Fennec might be willing to kidnap Omega, or another kid, especially if Fennec is being hired by the Kaminoians to "Bring Her Home," but she won't kill them or go out of her way to hurt them, and it doesn't have to be a plot hole or a characterization. People are complex, messy things, and maybe that's what we're seeing here.
Oh, I'm not trashing her at all. I was just pointing out how the different sides of characters are viewed, based on who we see them aligned with.

Fennec could be the most altruistic, compassionate, 'heart of gold' character ever on screen...or... She could be an immoral, no conscience, serial killer who's only reined in by the parameters of the job.

For all we know, Boba installed an explosive failsafe when he repaired her.

Lol
That's an extreme oversimplification, but basically, I'm not that surprised or bothered when I see her straight up murder someone.
 

Mara Jade's Father

Master Member
As far as Fennec goes, it seems like her motives are mission and self preservation oriented. Is there a line she wouldn't cross? Maybe... maybe not. We just don't know much about her. I don't think she is delights in killing for no reason.

The truth is we really don't have much Fennec or Boba Fett (in terms of canon) for that matter. We know Fett had demonstrated some compassion in the past (at least in contrast to Aurra Sing). We also have to consider that characters change. Both Fett and Fennec may have gone through life changing events that have changed (or shifted a little) their moral compass. They cleaned house at Jabba's palace. Bib Fortuna was defenseless but did the duo deem him as deserving to die prior to their arrival? Were they there to put an end to the criminal element or simply to replace him.

There is a lot of gray area here. I tend to think it is why many fans who grew up with the original trilogy, have a hard time understanding/enjoying the prequels because of their many layer of deception and gray areas between good and evil.

I also have to wonder if this would have been brought up if it were Boba Fett in that episode? Are male characters allowed to skirt ethical dilemmas but female characters much be pure good or pure evil? Did fans not enjoy the character development of Ventress rising out and away from Dooku and even helping Ahsoka. I know I did.
 

squirk

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
As far as Fennec goes, it seems like her motives are mission and self preservation oriented. Is there a line she wouldn't cross? Maybe... maybe not. We just don't know much about her. I don't think she is delights in killing for no reason.

The truth is we really don't have much Fennec or Boba Fett (in terms of canon) for that matter. We know Fett had demonstrated some compassion in the past (at least in contrast to Aurra Sing). We also have to consider that characters change. Both Fett and Fennec may have gone through life changing events that have changed (or shifted a little) their moral compass. They cleaned house at Jabba's palace. Bib Fortuna was defenseless but did the duo deem him as deserving to die prior to their arrival? Were they there to put an end to the criminal element or simply to replace him.

There is a lot of gray area here. I tend to think it is why many fans who grew up with the original trilogy, have a hard time understanding/enjoying the prequels because of their many layer of deception and gray areas between good and evil.

I also have to wonder if this would have been brought up if it were Boba Fett in that episode? Are male characters allowed to skirt ethical dilemmas but female characters much be pure good or pure evil? Did fans not enjoy the character development of Ventress rising out and away from Dooku and even helping Ahsoka. I know I did.

I love the shades of black and white. It was one of my favorite parts of the prequels. And I have no issue at all with Fennec (or any female character) being grey - even dark grey. No problems with Ventress at all. I'm just saying it's hard to come back from killing innocent people and cops if she's someone we're going to be expected to root for later on.

There were some early issues of Star Wars comics, after Disney took over, that had Boba killing innocent "civilians". I remember one issue (SW #5?) where he was looking for Luke on Tatooine and some kid came into Chalmun's who looked nervous at the mention of the name "Skywalker." Boba beat the living crap out of the kid, and after the kid told him what he knew, Boba killed him.

The kid wasn't some shady-type career criminal with unclean hands who probably "had it coming." He was just some kid, minding his own business, who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, who was understandably nervous when some Mandalorian bounty hunter started asking questions about somebody he knew. And then Boba went on to question others around Tatooine, killing everyone he walked to.

I remember reading that, and being 100% turned off by this new "spin" on Boba as some murderous psychopath. Sure, Disney was rebooting the EU, but in terms of revamping Boba as someone who left a trail of innocent bodies in his wake, I just didn't want to go along for that ride.
 

cboath

Master Member
But Vader and Ben can be 'redeemed' after being guilty of killing entire planets, not to mention civilians or anyone else who got in their way?

Granted we weren't supposed to root for vader post redemption, but we were supposed to root for ben afterward in the end of RoS.

I mean, Bounty Hunters, by definition kill people. Is it supposed to be OK that Fett disintegrated people in the past? Vaders words to him in ESB being 'no disintegrations'. Because someone had a bounty on them they're guilty of something? I mean, Grogu had a bounty on him (granted it was to bring him back alive), but still. Fennec was just sent after a 9 year old or whatever. Anyone believe that if the Empire deemed her a threat and put out a kill order, many bounty hunters would pass? Din doesn't have that rifle for self defense, it was to wipe out targets if the job called for it.
 

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squirk

Sr Member
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But Vader and Ben can be 'redeemed' after being guilty of killing entire planets, not to mention civilians or anyone else who got in their way?

Granted we weren't supposed to root for vader post redemption, but we were supposed to root for ben afterward in the end of RoS.

I mean, Bounty Hunters, by definition kill people. Is it supposed to be OK that Fett disintegrated people in the past? Vaders words to him in ESB being 'no disintegrations'. Because someone had a bounty on them they're guilty of something? I mean, Grogu had a bounty on him (granted it was to bring him back alive), but still. Fennec was just sent after a 9 year old or whatever. Anyone believe that if the Empire deemed her a threat and put out a kill order, many bounty hunters would pass? Din doesn't have that rifle for self defense, it was to wipe out targets if the job called for it.

Bounty hunters are assigned to either kill or capture a specific target. While you make a good point that most wouldn’t blink an eye at being assigned to kill a 10-y.o. girl, I’m not talking about that.

I’m talking about Fennec specifically, who I think LFL has been positioning to us as an anti-hero or at least a BH with some form of moral code who doesn’t kill innocent bystanders needlessly along the way. Like the slave dancer.

As for “no disintegrations,” I always took that to mean Boba had disintegrated bounties in the past that the Empire would have preferred alive, or at least, had a body delivered. I think the jury is still out on how many non-bounty civilians Boba took out during his pre-ROTJ career.

If I was a betting man, I’d say Disney wants to sell Boba Fett toys, so BoBF is going to frame him and Fennec as “honorable” crime lords who don’t kill civilians vs. otherwise. I’m thinking something between Vito Corleone and Tony Soprano.

And I sure never considered Anakin or Ben fully “redeemed” when they died. Starting on the path to redemption, sure. But they both have a whole lot of **** to answer for that wasn’t going to be cancelled out by some 11th-hour change of heart.

TL;DR - all I’m saying is that I am surprised Fennec kills innocent bystanders. Not saying LFL cannot or should not go down that more complex path with her. I just fully expected her to somehow dump that guy in a manner that might injure him, but not kill him.
 
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Mara Jade's Father

Master Member
And I sure never considered Anakin or Ben fully “redeemed” when they died.

I can't speak for Ben, but I think we are supposed to believe that Anakin was due to the fact we see his force ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi. At least the part that was Anakin and not Darth Vader, which is what I guess was the point in the image change from old to young Anakin.
 

squirk

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
I can't speak for Ben, but I think we are supposed to believe that Anakin was due to the fact we see his force ghost at the end of Return of the Jedi. At least the part that was Anakin and not Darth Vader, which is what I guess was the point in the image change from old to young Anakin.

Maybe “redeemed” isn’t the right word. Neither of them had “atoned,” perhaps?

Interesting question, though - can you be redeemed without first having atoned? Or can you atone only after you've been redeemed first?

See, again, I like this complexity. If this is where LFL is going to go with Boba and Fennec, I am all for it. Just not what I expected.
 
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Mara Jade's Father

Master Member
Maybe “redeemed” isn’t the right word. Neither of them had “atoned,” perhaps?

Interesting question, though - can you be redeemed without first having atoned? Or can you atone only after you've been redeemed first?

See, again, I like this complexity. If this is where LFL is going to go with Boba and Fennec, I am all for it. Just not what I expected.
You could argue that Anakin may have atoned, but it was Luke who redeemed him.
 

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squirk

Sr Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
Fennec could be the most altruistic, compassionate, 'heart of gold' character ever on screen...or... She could be an immoral, no conscience, serial killer who's only reined in by the parameters of the job.

The killing of the cop and the transport driver make it clear that she's not on one end of that spectrum you describe. ;)

I could be way off and she really is going to be completely amoral, but those small notes of grace toward Omega make it a pretty fair bet that they're going to introduce some sort of redemptive arc or, at the very least, some backstory that is meant to garner our sympathies.

If and when that train comes, I would have found it a lot easier to jump aboard if she hadn't killed that guy. If Filoni's goal is to make it really, really challenging for us to ever like Fennec - or to find ourselves liking Fennec despite her history - then well done.
 

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Laspector

Master Member
I just went back and read this entire thread and I'm wondering how this has not been mentioned (or did I miss it?)--seems pretty obvious to me that Omega will turn out to be Rey's mother. Surely I'm not the only one thinking this. Supposing she doesn't have the "fast aging" or whatever it is called, the timeline matches up. We're still almost twenty years before the OT. Add another ten years, she gives birth to Rey at about 30 some odd years old. That puts Rey in her early 20s for the beginning of the ST. Why else would Omega be a clone? Why would she be the only female one made? Why is she being hunted? She obviously is extremely important to the Empire, or more specifically Palpatine. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

On another note, while I am enjoying the show, IMHO it is devolving into exactly what I did not like about TCW; side plot mission/very little actual story advancement, another side plot mission/very little actual story advancement....rinse and repeat. You could take the entire run of TCW and edit it down to about maybe one full season of actual important plot advancement. I just don't care about all this other stuff that just seems to be filler.

And finally, now we are supposed to feel sorry for the Rancor on ROTJ? It was just a poor little female beast, sold off to Jabba and turned into his personal killing machine. Although, and I will admit I am contradicting myself here, if you will remember in the novelization of ROTJ Luke himself feels sorry for the Rancor as he feels it is a misunderstood beast, tortured and miserable, and killing it was mostly just putting it out of it's misery. However, in the book it was stated that the Rancor was probably a mutation, maybe even one-of-a-kind. That doesn't really add up with The Bad Batch being familiar with what a Rancor is.....But, of course the novelizations all carry contradictions-- so what're 'ya gonna do?
 
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Mara Jade's Father

Master Member
I just went back and read this entire thread and I'm wondering how this has not been mentioned (or did I miss it?)--seems pretty obvious to me that Omega will turn out to be Rey's mother. Surely I'm not the only one thinking this. Supposing she doesn't have the "fast aging" or whatever it is called, the timeline matches up. We're still almost twenty years before the OT. Add another ten years, she gives birth to Rey at about 30 some odd years old. That puts Rey in her early 20s for the beginning of the ST. Why else would Omega be a clone? Why would she be the only female one made? Why is she being hunted? She obviously is extremely important to the Empire, or more specifically Palpatine. Seems like a no-brainer to me.
I think you are going to be alone on this one.

On another note, while I am enjoying the show, IMHO it is devolving into exactly what I did not like about TCW; side plot mission/very little actual story advancement, another side plot mission/very little actual story advancement....rinse and repeat. You could take the entire run of TCW and edit it down to about maybe one full season of actual important plot advancement. I just don't care about all this other stuff that just seems to be filler.

TCW was always established to be various stories of the Clone Wars. Over all, it all melded into one story... how we got from Ep 2 to Ep 3.

BB is going to be more like Rebels. It follows one group. These stories may seem disconnected right now but they are (IMHO) the base for the main story. They are setting up characters and information that will come into play later. For example, this recent story about the sisters was reminiscent to the second episode of Rebels in which they met R2-D2 and C-3PO. One the surface that episode might seem like it only served to bring in viewers for the cameo, but the episode was a major story point. Because the droids were able to gather information and knowledge of the Ghost crew, they were able to relay that information to Bail Organa which led to Fulcrum (Ahsoka) making contact with Hera, which ultimately led to The ghost group joining the larger rebellion and making a major impact in the Rebel Alliance.

In short, don't dismiss the importance of these early stories.

And finally, now we are supposed to feel sorry for the Rancor on ROTJ? It was just a poor little female beast, sold off to Jabba and turned into his personal killing machine. Although, and I will admit I am contradicting myself here, if you will remember in the novelization of ROTJ Luke himself feels sorry for the Rancor as he feels it is a misunderstood beast, tortured and miserable, and killing it was mostly just putting it out of it's misery. However, in the book it was stated that the Rancor was probably a mutation, maybe even one-of-a-kind. That doesn't really add up with The Bad Batch being familiar with what a Rancor is.....But, of course the novelizations all carry contradictions-- so what're 'ya gonna do?
There are a number of articles about how they are not thew same, I cut out this little bit from one of those:

As established by Wookiepedia, the rancor Luke killed was named Pateesa and is male, whereas Muchi is female. According to the canon, Pateesa was given to Jabba as a birthday present by Bib Fortuna around the time of The Phantom Menace and trained to consume those who displeased the crime lord.​
 

Treadwell

Master Member
RPF PREMIUM MEMBER
If they'd just have sedated Wrecker before the surgery (or, just to be safe, before the trip, even).... well, there wouldn't have been a third act, I suppose. ;)
 

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