Avengers: Endgame (Post-release)

[azheat]

So maybe this was asked, but I haven't read all 16 pages of this thread. Just saw it today (been busy), if Captain America went back in time and stayed there, isn't his other self still frozen in ice? When he went back he didn't embody his other self, so wouldn't two exist? Or did I miss the timeline split / alternate timelines theory somewhere.

 

[Jaitea]

So maybe this was asked, but I haven't read all 16 pages of this thread. Just saw it today (been busy), if Captain America went back in time and stayed there, isn't his other self still frozen in ice? When he went back he didn't embody his other self, so wouldn't two exist? Or did I miss the timeline split / alternate timelines theory somewhere.

Yep,...thats true,....just like the time in the movie when he fought with himself,....if he went back to the 40's there would be another Capn frozen

J

 

[CPTRogers]

Yep,...thats true,....just like the time in the movie when he fought with himself,....if he went back to the 40's there would be another Capn frozen

J

I'd imagine he kept his identity on the DL. He could have lived his life while the other cap stayed frozen.

 

[JediMichael]

Finally got to see this tonight. I'll say it was amazed that I had nothing spoiled for me in the 2 weeks since this came out. As for the movie, I really love how they combined all these movies together in such a perfect way. Can't be easy to pull something like that off over an 11 year time frame.
Although different in how they bring back all the people lost in the snap after a 5 year absence.
So something like, your a 15 year old with a boy/girl friend....you disappear, then reappear....now that girl/boy friend is 20 years old, your still 15......kinda weird. At least thats the way they made it seem right.

 

[JediMichael]

Reading over a few pages here and other areas on the internet....seems that some people didn't like the idea of them using time travel.
So wondering, how would you guys write Endgame, while fixing the the snap problem but without using time travel?
Just curious to see what other creative ways there could have been.

 

[George]

I don't think it could have been fixed any other way,so I'm fine with it.
Aside from the time-travel issue,I would have left the team intact though.People get hurt during battle,sure; we're made out of flesh and bones,so we're vulnerable.But nobody dies on my watch.Natural deaths only if need be (in real life that is).#PerpetualHeroism !

 

[CB2001]

Apparently, the writers have put to bed the whole returning the soul stone issue to bed.

 

[JediMichael]

Another interesting thing ti think of. Dr. Strange said there were over 13 million scenarios that happen...with the one being the only way they win. So makes me wonder now what are those ways in which they lose. Different ways that Thanos gets the stones and snaps his fingers. Some where he learns that killing half the universe isn't enough and gives them a fighting chance....so when he snaps the first time, goes for 100 percent. So many differnt ways he could win for good. Any cool ideas you guys got?

 

[CessnaDriver]

There is no time travel.

Past, present and future all co-exist together, and all possible "timelines" exist all at once. You're dying now, you're being born now, you're getting married to a different person now, you became a drug dealer now, you climbed Everest now, you watched Avengers: Electric Boogaloo now and were moved to tears at the dance off ending in fatality of Shabadoo Shrimp.
Imagine unraveling a film reel, now you observe all moments in the film's frames, past, present, future, existing at once, next to it you unravel the alternate ending director's cut of that same film, the different "timeline" just as valid.
We as humans are limited observers, like a film projector or record needle of only one "frame" at a time. One song at a time. Because we exist as 4 dimensional beings in space-time, we are stuck observing it this way.

 

[CB2001]

There is no time travel.

Past, present and future all co-exist together, and all possible "timelines" exist all at once. You're dying now, you're being born now, you're getting married to a different person now, you became a drug dealer now, you climbed Everest now, you watched Avengers: Electric Boogaloo now and were moved to tears at the dance off ending in fatality of Shabadoo Shrimp.
Imagine unraveling a film reel, now you observe all moments in the film's frames, past, present, future, existing at once, next to it you unravel the alternate ending director's cut of that same film, the different "timeline" just as valid.
We as humans are limited observers, like a film projector or record needle of only one "frame" at a time. One song at a time. Because we exist as 4 dimensional beings in space-time, we are stuck observing it this way.

Or, to quote Doctor Who for the TL;DR version of the post: a ball of wibbly, wobbly, timey-whimey stuff.

 

[Sundowner]

So the screen writers stated

“In Captain America: The Winter Soldier, it was revealed that Captain America's love, Peggy Carter, was married and had two kids. According to Avengers: Endgame writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely, the man she married was the Captain America from the main MCU timeline who went back in time at the end of the film.”

 

[dascoyne]

So the screen writers stated

“In Captain America: The Winter Soldier, it was revealed that Captain America's love, Peggy Carter, was married and had two kids. According to Avengers: Endgame writers Christopher Markus and Stephen McFeely, the man she married was the Captain America from the main MCU timeline who went back in time at the end of the film.”

The Russos disagree with M&M. I'm with Russos. Their take makes more sense both storywise and logically.

The M&M's take not only creates more paradoxes but also weakens the Winter Soldier conversation between Peggy and Steve IMO. What I loved about that scene is how it informs Peggy's character. That she is emotionally composed and cordial with Steve yet she masks a deep sorrow for what might have been.

M&M's retcon squanders that impact in favor of sheer bathos. This is MCU, not M. Night Shyamalan.

 

[Gimpdiggity]

The Russos disagree with M&M. I'm with Russos. Their take makes more sense both storywise and logically.

The M&M's take not only creates more paradoxes but also weakens the Winter Soldier conversation between Peggy and Steve IMO. What I loved about that scene is how it informs Peggy's character. That she is emotionally composed and cordial with Steve yet she masks a deep sorrow for what might have been.

M&M's retcon squanders that impact in favor of sheer bathos. This is MCU, not M. Night Shyamalan.

Agree 100%.

The writers’ take also makes Cap’s kiss with Sharon in “Civil War super awkward...because in their version she’s his niece.

 

[Strikerkc]

... how it informs Peggy's character. That she is emotionally composed and cordial with Steve yet she masks a deep sorrow for what might have been.

M&M's retcon squanders that impact in favor of sheer bathos. This is MCU, not M. Night Shyamalan.

No it doesn't. It can just as easily be her not being able to greet her husband the way she would want to. knowing she can't spill the beans to him. it could also be that she's seeing him and responding in a way she would around one of her most emotional instances with him, when he disappeared. It could be that peggy spent most of her life being the consummate professional, and even in a state of dementia, that fortitude of personality still held sway. It could be all kinds of reasons. Plus that scene was written years before any of this was much of a notion. Folks need to get over this idea that a new story putting a new spin on an old story doesn't invalidate the experience of the old story. The mindset that you're only allowed to enjoy the most recent version of something is so bonkers to me.

 

[dascoyne]

No it doesn't. It can just as easily be her not being able to greet her husband the way she would want to. knowing she can't spill the beans to him. it could also be that she's seeing him and responding in a way she would around one of her most emotional instances with him, when he disappeared. It could be that peggy spent most of her life being the consummate professional, and even in a state of dementia, that fortitude of personality still held sway. It could be all kinds of reasons. Plus that scene was written years before any of this was much of a notion. Folks need to get over this idea that a new story putting a new spin on an old story doesn't invalidate the experience of the old story. The mindset that you're only allowed to enjoy the most recent version of something is so bonkers to me.

I understand your rationale and it's true that it takes nothing away from my initial experience in watching The Winter Soldier for the first time. But Endgame enhances my subsequent viewings and infuses meaning into seemingly irrelevant details of the past. So I value my rewatching experience.

If Steve has been her husband all this time then he’s also alive as an elderly man in The Winter Soldier. Why would Peggy suddenly get so remorseful when he’s still at home in hiding from the world? I can’t think of an emotionally satisfying explanation - (e’g. She’s putting on an act for the sake of young Steve.). It just doesn’t work for me. As I said, this kind of twist ending that adds no meaning to the preceding events is too M. Night Sham for me.

For that same reason I can still be annoyed that, in Captain Marvel, we find that Fury lost his eye to a cat. In Winter Soldier when he alluded to a story where trust in someone cost him an eye it was a powerful moment. By that rationale I shouldn't care about how they explained it in Captain Marvel.

Still, I can only speak for what works for me. The Russos’ interpretation is at least as valid as M&M's. If M&M works for you then good for you.

 

[JD]

Agree 100%.

The writers’ take also makes Cap’s kiss with Sharon in “Civil War super awkward...because in their version she’s his niece.

Ever seen The Empire Strikes Back?

 

[Joek3rr]

Finally got to watch it. It was really good. Though I feel they played a just bit too much on the nostalgia. I mean going back the see bits of the others films was fun and helped tie things up.........but I don't know.....just a tad to much for me.

My biggest issue for me, is they are so close to true unbridled greatness, so so close but they have yet to cross over. And for me I think the problem is the cinematography. Now I don't claim know anything about what makes good cinematography. And little I know comes from YouTube(Patrick H Willems mainly). But I know what I know, and know what I like. And this film like many of the others just lacks something. Sure it's got memorable scenes and memorable and quotable dialogue(Yes Ant-Man, I agree, that is America's a**). But there isn't, in my opinion, any memorable images. Powerful images that stick in your mind. Images that you could frame and use for decoration, and not just nerd decoration. Images like this

Or this

Or this

So yeah, I thought it was good very very good, not quite great, but soooooo close.

 

[cboath]

Ever seen The Empire Strikes Back?

I was going to say that.

The problem (with both scenarios) is that it makes it blatantly clear that in both instances, the complete story had not been thought through to that level. While both scenarios would/could likely happen if that stories unfolded as they did - no way screenwriters/directors would have depicted that in movies meant for family viewing (give or take). GL would have had the guts to to have them kiss like that had he known then, and the russo's wouldn't have had steve kissing his niece had they known either.

The fact that those empowered to write it and the director have different views shows they didn't think it through completely.

To me it doesn't change anything from an enjoyment standpoint, but it does show that while they had a plan, it was in the high points, not the minute details. Who Peggy's husband was in the the first Captain America doesn't change that flick or Endgame. I find it a bit odd they didn't at least discuss this stuff after the script was done or after they wrapped, but prior to release and then agree to have the answers come from a single source though. As I said neither answer changes anything, but it doesn't good when two involved parties give very different answers.

 

[Gimpdiggity]

Ever seen The Empire Strikes Back?

Of course I have.

I was going to say that.

The problem (with both scenarios) is that it makes it blatantly clear that in both instances, the complete story had not been thought through to that level. While both scenarios would/could likely happen if that stories unfolded as they did - no way screenwriters/directors would have depicted that in movies meant for family viewing (give or take). GL would have had the guts to to have them kiss like that had he known then, and the russo's wouldn't have had steve kissing his niece had they known either.

The fact that those empowered to write it and the director have different views shows they didn't think it through completely.

To me it doesn't change anything from an enjoyment standpoint, but it does show that while they had a plan, it was in the high points, not the minute details. Who Peggy's husband was in the the first Captain America doesn't change that flick or Endgame. I find it a bit odd they didn't at least discuss this stuff after the script was done or after they wrapped, but prior to release and then agree to have the answers come from a single source though. As I said neither answer changes anything, but it doesn't good when two involved parties give very different answers.

My main personal thinking as to why these are two very different scenarios is this:

In one (MCU films) you have a VIABLE option that fits with the narrative and rules we’ve been given to support that Cap is NOT making out with his niece.

If you believe the Russos’ take, then Cap traveled to an alternate timeline, married Peggy, then came back to the “Prime” timeline at the end to give Sam the shield.

In the Prime timeline, Peggy married another man and the Sharon that Steve kisses is not in fact his niece.

This is a completely acceptable version of the story that fits within the parameters we’ve been given and results in no weird “Game of Thrones” moments.

In the other (Star Wars) you have ZERO viable alternatives to the fact that Luke shared a passionate kiss with his sister. None. There is no possible way to explain it any other way.


Now, I will say I agree that the Russos and the writers should have gotten on the same page before handing out these answers. That said, for some reason I just feel that the Russos’ version of the story seems to fit much better with how we saw the events play out than the writers’ take. Just my opinion.

 

[Treadwell]