Avengers: Endgame (Post-release)

What did you think of Avengers: Endgame?


  • Total voters
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I understand your rationale and it's true that it takes nothing away from my initial experience in watching The Winter Soldier for the first time. But Endgame enhances my subsequent viewings and infuses meaning into seemingly irrelevant details of the past. So I value my rewatching experience.

If Steve has been her husband all this time then he’s also alive as an elderly man in The Winter Soldier. Why would Peggy suddenly get so remorseful when he’s still at home in hiding from the world? I can’t think of an emotionally satisfying explanation - (e’g. She’s putting on an act for the sake of young Steve.). It just doesn’t work for me. As I said, this kind of twist ending that adds no meaning to the preceding events is too M. Night Sham for me.

For that same reason I can still be annoyed that, in Captain Marvel, we find that Fury lost his eye to a cat. In Winter Soldier when he alluded to a story where trust in someone cost him an eye it was a powerful moment. By that rationale I shouldn't care about how they explained it in Captain Marvel.

Still, I can only speak for what works for me. The Russos’ interpretation is at least as valid as M&M's. If M&M works for you then good for you.

Completely agree. When a large story, universe, is created, and complete, the context of the past changes. That's one of the best things about this series they created. You get to go back and watch things and see things in a completely new light. It's almost like watching it for the first time.

I guess the things that have been altered (like the eye), just have to be taken with a grain of salt. They created a large story, and I guess some things change, or were forgotten (though I have my doubts).

Man, I can't wait to watch the entire movie series again! We did it last year over the course of a week.
 
Not even this one?

1555466188-Captain_America_Avengers_Endgame.jpg


But there isn't, in my opinion, any memorable images. Powerful images that stick in your mind. Images that you could frame and use for decoration, and not just nerd decoration. Images like this

So yeah, I thought it was good very very good, not quite great, but soooooo close.
 

I don't recall that from the film. His shield was really messed up. And he was no longer wearing the first Avengers film suit. And it like 99% of phase 2 and 3 films, it's was muddy and bland.

And that the thing. That scene was amazing. But only because Cap finally got the hammer. It's just......I don't know hard to explain how I feel. Something feels hollow.

When I saw the Endgame trailer, it was weird, I wasn't excited. I couldn’t put my finger on it. I love the Marvel films, but for some weird reason I was meh about Endgame. Then I came across Patrick H Willems 3 videos on the subject. Here he was feeling the same way I was. I suggest giving them a watch.
 
His shield was intact when started to lay the beat down on Thanos. Wasn't until close to when the portals
open and Sam says "on your left" that his shield is cut down to about half.
That picture also doesn't look familiar. Maybe a production still or from when just before
Thanos get blasted with lightning. Not sure on that one. Look, now I have a reason to go see it again. :)
 
Except that to go from timeline to timeline, you apparently needed the machine/platform which professor hulk was running at the end. In the original 'heist sequence' it believe it was on a timer and everyone return at the same basic time.

To come back on his own, Steve would had to have had another platform setup on his alternate world that could send him back to this original timeline at that time. Nothing was shown to indicate that was a remote possibility.

However, if he went back in the original timeline and lived it out til that present, it works without having to make massive assumptions about how he could possible simply return.
 
And for me I think the problem is the cinematography. Now I don't claim know anything about what makes good cinematography. And little I know comes from YouTube(Patrick H Willems mainly). But I know what I know, and know what I like. And this film like many of the others just lacks something. Sure it's got memorable scenes and memorable and quotable dialogue(Yes Ant-Man, I agree, that is America's a**). But there isn't, in my opinion, any memorable images. Powerful images that stick in your mind. Images that you could frame and use for decoration, and not just nerd decoration. Images like this.
I think you might be talking more about spectacle than cinematography.

After IW, they intentionally dialed back the scale and pace for character development and to set up for a big third act. The first two acts have smaller, more intimate settings, fewer characters, longer takes, more two (character) shots, and more dialogue. There is no real spectacle. This is by design. If they continued the pace and structure of IW it would have been fatiguing to watch.

The best cinematic spectacles are about both visuals and theme. (e.g. Zack Snyder invests heavily in gorgeous visuals but is often criticized for being thematically vacuous)

Endgame's spectacle is the third act. Do you remember that shot of Captain America standing alone (on the left side of the frame) against Thanos and an entire invasion force? That is spectacle.

Few characters in sci-fi/fantasy film have been fleshed out as thoroughly as Steve Rogers has been over the past decade. We've witnessed Steve's (very) humble beginnings and have been with him through growth, crisis and loss. Hence we understand the substance behind his will in the face of the most hyperbolically impossible odds imaginable.

Both visually and thematically, I would put that shot up against Aragorn leading the army of the West in the Battle of Morannon any day of the week. It's not the blasphemy of putting comic books above Tolkien. While I love Tokein's legendarium and Peter Jackson's LOTR movies, I'm not going to relate to Aragorn as a character on a personal level because, by design, Aragorn is the grand archetype of the sacrificial king. That's all. Steve Rogers is both relatable and the breadth of his story is remarkable - from "skinny Steve" just wanting to enlist in the army to fighting for the fate of a universe.

That single shot in Endgame is great, not only visually, but for its emotional and thematic layers.

I don't expect to change your mind if that shot didn't do anything for you. I just beg to differ for the above reasons.

Sorry but I couldn't find a screenshot to post.
 
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Except that to go from timeline to timeline, you apparently needed the machine/platform which professor hulk was running at the end. In the original 'heist sequence' it believe it was on a timer and everyone return at the same basic time.

To come back on his own, Steve would had to have had another platform setup on his alternate world that could send him back to this original timeline at that time. Nothing was shown to indicate that was a remote possibility.

However, if he went back in the original timeline and lived it out til that present, it works without having to make massive assumptions about how he could possible simply return.

When Tony and Steve went back again after failing to get the Tesseract, they just used their watch/time GPS devices, and never interacted with the platform at all.

It was fairly clear in the film that those handheld devices allowed you to jump back in time, but the platform was required to come back to the current timeline.

There are no massive assumptions required...Steve lives in the timeline where he married Peggy until AFTER the events of the film, then used the handheld device to travel BACK to that park bench.

This is why Steve took FOUR vials of Pym particles. Two for he and Tony to jump back from the 70s. One for him to jump back to the 40s and marry Peggy after he returned all the stones. And one final one for him to jump back to the “Prime” timeline. The camera even lingered on those four vials long enough for it to be something that should have been noted as important.
 
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I think you might be talking more about spectacle than cinematography.

After IW, they intentionally dialed back the scale and pace of the of the film for character development and to set up for a big third act. The first two acts have smaller, more intimate settings, fewer characters, longer takes, more two (character) shots, and more dialogue. There is no real spectacle. This is by design. If they continued the pace and structure of IW it would be fatiguing to watch.

The best cinematic spectacle about both visuals and theme. (e.g. Zack Snyder invests heavily in gorgeous visuals but is often criticized for being thematically vacuous)

Endgame's spectacle is the third act. Do you remember that shot of Captain America standing alone (on the left side of the frame) against Thanos and an entire invasion force? That is spectacle.

Few characters in sci-fi/fantasy film have been fleshed out as thoroughly as Steve Rogers has been over the past decade. We've witnessed Steve's (very) humble beginnings and have been with him through growth, crisis and loss. Hence we understand the substance behind his will in the face of the most impossible odds imaginable.

Both visually and thematically, I would put that shot up against Aragorn leading the army of the West in the Battle of Morannon any day of the week. It's not the blasphemy of putting comic books above Tolkien. While I love Tokein's legendarium and Peter Jackson's LOTR movies, I'm not going to relate to Aragorn as a character on a personal level because, by design, he's the grand archetype of the sacrificial king. That's all. Steve Rogers is both relatable and the breadth of his story is remarkable - from "skinny Steve" just wanting to enlist in the army to fighting for the fate of a universe.

That single shot in Endgame is great, not only visually, but for its emotional and thematic layers.

I don't expect to change your mind if that shot didn't do anything for you. I just beg to differ for the above reasons.

Sorry but I couldn't find a screenshot to post.

And that's just it. My problem is with the spectacle. It's near colorless, messy, convoluted. They lack focus. So while the characters are good, the dialogue is superb. The spectacle is, meh.

I've always felt that in a truly great film, every element in that film should be able to convey the story to a certain degree on its own. And that goes for what the camera does or doesn't do. How things are lit, and colored. And for the most part, the MCU films, particularly now, just don't do that. We've had 22 fairly good solid films, I want great. I want The Lord of the Rings, Ben Hur, kinda great. I want them to try and beat that 11 Oscar record.

As I've said before, Patrick H Willems does a better job at conveying this. As he knows way way more about film making then me. As I'm just an armchair film enthusiasts, practically falling off the chair too.
At minimum watch from 12:30 ish on aways
 
And that's just it. My problem is with the spectacle. It's near colorless, messy, convoluted. They lack focus. So while the characters are good, the dialogue is superb. The spectacle is, meh.

I've always felt that in a truly great film, every element in that film should be able to convey the story to a certain degree on its own. And that goes for what the camera does or doesn't do. How things are lit, and colored. And for the most part, the MCU films, particularly now, just don't do that. We've had 22 fairly good solid films, I want great. I want The Lord of the Rings, Ben Hur, kinda great. I want them to try and beat that 11 Oscar record.

As I've said before, Patrick H Willems does a better job at conveying this. As he knows way way more about film making then me. As I'm just an armchair film enthusiasts, practically falling off the chair too.
At minimum watch from 12:30 ish on aways


I think a lot of people, myself included, would disagree with you. I don't know how much bigger you can get than a film that wraps up a 22 film (including Endgame) 11 year narrative.
The MCU has done big set pieces and balanced that with beautiful, intimate character moments and earned every second of pathos by building up strong, rounded, beloved, characters.

I'm curious to know what it was about Lord of the Rings that you feel had a leg up over Endgame? That isn't a criticism against you, I'm just curious what you didn't get from Endgame that you think Lord of the Rings did give.
 
I think a lot of people, myself included, would disagree with you. I don't know how much bigger you can get than a film that wraps up a 22 film (including Endgame) 11 year narrative.
The MCU has done big set pieces and balanced that with beautiful, intimate character moments and earned every second of pathos by building up strong, rounded, beloved, characters.

I'm curious to know what it was about Lord of the Rings that you feel had a leg up over Endgame? That isn't a criticism against you, I'm just curious what you didn't get from Endgame that you think Lord of the Rings did give.

I'm going to borrow from Patrick who borrowed from Matt Zoller Seitz's review about Infinity War.
"On some level, it feels ungrateful to ask a movie that already does the impossible to do it with more panache. But what are superhero movies without panache really good for? If there was ever a moment to swing for the fences, it was this one...
....But rather than match their support team's inventiveness, the directors avoid risk. They capture both the violent (sometimes cruel) action and the emotionally intense private moments in either a boringly flat or frantically hacky manner (snap-zooms on falling figures; herky-jerky camerawork and fast cutting during fight scenes; the same stuff you see in most action films made during the past decade). They use the camera in an expressive or poetic way so rarely that when they do bust out a heartfelt flourish (like the long, slow camera move that reveals the Guardians in their spaceship engaged in a sing-along, or the "wipes" that reveal the reality that Thanos' illusions hide, or a climatic fight between Thanos and multiple heroes) it's as if somebody had briefly sparked a dull wedding reception to life by going out on the dance floor and demanding a song with a backbeat."

The spectacle in these films is, on paper, amazing. But it's wearing thin on me. Because of their generic execution. Rarely anymore with these films, am I wow'd, not by the spectacle, but how that spectacle is presented. In the frantic mess of the spectacle, is lost moments of truly powerful images. There surprisingly few memorable images. But The Lord of the Rings is filled with powerful images. From the very start, Suron holding the his hand up to admire his ring. The Nine drawing their swords at once. The Balrog spreading it's wings out. Every aerial shot showing the Three Hunters. Aragorn opening the doors of the Helms Deep. The reveal of the Nazgûl on fell beasts. Images that are seared into my brain from the first moment I saw them. Even the early Marvel films have moments of pure cinematic gold. Like the Iron Man Mk2 suit up, and Mk5 suit up. That one shot from the first Avengers where the camera circles our heroes grouped together. But ever since the Russo's started doing more, those powerful images are far and few between. It's should come at no surprise that some of my more favorite MCU films, are Thor Ragnarok, Black Panther, and the Guardians films.

And action scenes, are so blah. And that's because the directors don't have a lot of experience with VFX, and all the VFX action scenes and set peices are being directed by the pre-visualization team, and not the directors of the films. A real problem when you consider how the number of VFX shots per film has multiplied like rabbits. The first Iron Man had 800 VFX shots. The First Avengers 2,200. And Civil War 3,000 VFX shots.

Anyways I don't know if I explained myself. It's hard to put a finger on how I feel. I love these films, I really enjoy them. I make point of seeing each one. But something feels off, almost missing from them.
 
People always have to find reasons to not like something.

Take one of the greatest fight scenes ever and find something to nitpick it with.

I can nitpick, too, i guess...I didn't like that they made StarLord out to be essentially a complete dork and not much more, but i'd dock it maybe .0001 percent for it.

That battle, though, had to accomplish more - from a technical POV than anything else ever has. You're not following 4-5 people in a big battle like LotR, you're following more than 20, maybe more than 30 that has to be in a cataclysmic fight. If anything, i'd knock it another .0001 because most of that fight is completely CG'd and there's very little actual setting used. But, there was zero other ways to do it.

If you watch that and think it should have popped more and it really hurts the overall experience for you, it says more about you and your level of expectation than the movie.

Another perspective on this is that they spent maybe 3 years on IW/Engame as basically a single 5.5hr epic. That in and of itself is a massive accomplishment for that time frame. It's still not unheard of for a single 2 hour flick to take 3 years, though 2 is much more common these days. People still say they should've spread out the ST for SW out to 3 years apart to give them time to work on things.

I guess you just really like LoTR. I don't recall many of those images myself. I still do recall a couple really bad comp shots from Return of the King...those stood out more to me than anything else to be honest. Not trying to take shots, just saying that recall is subjective. If something doesn't speak to you, fine. Doesn't mean it didn't speak to everyone else.
 
People always have to find reasons to not like something.

Take one of the greatest fight scenes ever and find something to nitpick it with.

I can nitpick, too, i guess...I didn't like that they made StarLord out to be essentially a complete dork and not much more, but i'd dock it maybe .0001 percent for it.

That battle, though, had to accomplish more - from a technical POV than anything else ever has. You're not following 4-5 people in a big battle like LotR, you're following more than 20, maybe more than 30 that has to be in a cataclysmic fight. If anything, i'd knock it another .0001 because most of that fight is completely CG'd and there's very little actual setting used. But, there was zero other ways to do it.

If you watch that and think it should have popped more and it really hurts the overall experience for you, it says more about you and your level of expectation than the movie.

Another perspective on this is that they spent maybe 3 years on IW/Engame as basically a single 5.5hr epic. That in and of itself is a massive accomplishment for that time frame. It's still not unheard of for a single 2 hour flick to take 3 years, though 2 is much more common these days. People still say they should've spread out the ST for SW out to 3 years apart to give them time to work on things.

I guess you just really like LoTR. I don't recall many of those images myself. I still do recall a couple really bad comp shots from Return of the King...those stood out more to me than anything else to be honest. Not trying to take shots, just saying that recall is subjective. If something doesn't speak to you, fine. Doesn't mean it didn't speak to everyone else.

I’m 100% on the same page on this issue. Well said.
 
I'm going to borrow from Patrick who borrowed from Matt Zoller Seitz's review about Infinity War.

Now you done poked the bear.

I subscribed to Willems' YouTube channel over 3 years ago. Sometimes I agree with him. Sometimes I don't. I don’t think I’ve watched his stuff for over a year.

His take on the Russos would be an example of where I disagree with him.

They (Russos) capture both the violent (sometimes cruel) action and the emotionally intense private moments in either a boringly flat or frantically hackneyed manner (snap-zooms on falling figures; herky-jerky camerawork and fast cutting during fight scenes;

First let’s talk about the “boringly flat” “manner” to which he refers. I presume he means their use of long static shots in conversation sequences. The use of static shots is a deliberate editing choice that can be a powerful device in the right hands. It’s exemplified by director Yasujiro Ozu since the 1930’s and used by Kurosawa in films like, Kagemusha and even Seven Samurai. Unfortunately, it’s used less today than it was in the 1950’s-70’s. I believe this can be attributed to shorter attention span of today’s general public which expects more dynamic shots and rapid edits.

(Digression: In my heart I believe the trend also represents an unfortunate degeneration in cinematic literacy. I’d be willing to bet that most folks under 35 years old today would struggle to sit through a viewing of The Seven Samurai, Lawrence of Arabia or even The Good The Bad and The Ugly. Heck, some people today can’t even sit through Jaws, Blade Runner or Alien.)

The Russos' use of static shots is appropriate for the MCU which is founded on characters and relationships. It’s not because they don’t understand more dynamic camera work.

Now let’s talk about the Russos action sequences which he describes as “frantically hackneyed “.

And action scenes, are so blah …. the same stuff you see in most action films made during the past decade).
This statement either wasn’t thought out or he understands nothing about action direction.

Firstly, let’s establish that the tired action film practice to which he referred is the staple of most Hollywood action movies today. To think that applies to any of the Russos action sequences is just dim-witted.

Action sequences are built around varying rhythms and breaks in rhythms. The construction and choreography of great action is interesting but it’s also a very involved discussion. Not all directors are “action directors.” For example, Joss Whedon, whom I adore, is wonderful with ensemble cast but not really what I would call an “action director”.

The Russos, on the other hand, excel at action.

Take the Winter Soldier highway fight sequence:




I don’t see where this is the “same stuff” of action movies. These sequences have actual structure, rhythm and, yes, even story and character development throughout. Make no mistake, the entire highway fight was storyboarded and executed with incredible skill, delicacy and intelligence.

The same could be said about the opening fight on the ship, Nick Fury’s car chase, and the elevator fight sequence. Each one of those sequences is a gem deserving of deconstruction for anyone studying action.

Now let’s pull the Aragorn fight with Uruk Hai from LOTR, since it's a film he reveres.


Other than a few seconds of Legolas’ badass combat archery, the fight choreography and editing are bland and forgettable. Aragorn is just hacking into a horde of Uruk Hai who aren’t even attacking him most of the time. There’s no real sword choreography to speak of. The editing doesn't function to crystallize actions but serves to mask flaws in the choreography and framing. Aragorn sends a bunch of them tumbling down stairs with a kick or dives onto a pack of them Errol Flynn-style and, if you added a Dutch angle, you’ve got 1960’s Batman biffing down a bunch of henchmen. There’s nothing original here.

(Russos) use the camera in an expressive or poetic way so rarely that when they do bust out a heartfelt flourish (like the long, slow camera move that reveals the Guardians in their spaceship engaged in a sing-along, or the "wipes" that reveal the reality that Thanos' illusions hide, or a climatic fight between Thanos and multiple heroes) it's as if somebody had briefly sparked a dull wedding reception to life by going out on the dance floor and demanding a song with a backbeat."

The best way to describe film editing is that it’s about time. Sometimes the narrative is advanced through camera movement, sometimes through dynamic transitions and sometimes through actual dialogue or exposition. He's basically saying he would rather see the use of more dynamic transitions. But that’s simply a matter of personal taste. That’s as narrow-minded as saying you have a problem with Robert Altman’s M*A*S*H because he doesn’t apply Martin Scorsese’s breakneck camera work. You can’t compare them because they’re different kinds of film.

The Russos are what are known as, "actor's directors." Great actor's directors include Sidney Lumet (Dog Day Afternoon, 12 Angry Men, Serpico ...), Clint Eastwood (Unforgiven, Million Dollar Baby, Gran Torino, American Sniper ...), Sydney Pollack ...

(In contrast you also have directors like Ridley Scott or George Lucas who are so notoriously absorbed in the technical end that some actors can feel like they're being treated like props.)

The Russos make it clear, in interviews that they hold character, casting and performance above all. If one can set aside the stigma of the superhero genre it’s apparent there is a cohesive complexity and structure to performance and character of, say, RDJ as Tony Stark and his relationships with other characters (Rogers, Parker, Potts ...). An adept actor’s director can draw out superb performances from even inexperienced actors.

Just as films that are fundamentally spectacle (e.g. LOTR) can have character moments, character-driven films can have moments of spectacle as well. Russo’s MCU is the latter.

The spectacle in these films is, on paper, amazing. But it's wearing thin on me. Because of their generic execution. Rarely anymore with these films, am I wow'd, not by the spectacle, but how that spectacle is presented. In the frantic mess of the spectacle, is lost moments of truly powerful images. There surprisingly few memorable images. But The Lord of the Rings is filled with powerful images. From the very start, Suron holding the his hand up to admire his ring. The Nine drawing their swords at once. The Balrog spreading it's wings out. Every aerial shot showing the Three Hunters. Aragorn opening the doors of the Helms Deep. The reveal of the Nazgûl on fell beasts. Images that are seared into my brain from the first moment I saw them.
I will grant that MCU visual effects aren’t always technically “cutting edge” (except for de-aging) but they tend to focus more on design which is good to often great.

I can also understand the gripe some people have about the “look” of Marvel films. Their lighting and color grading are characteristically very vivid (even when desaturated), often without much layering in the frame to suggest depth nor used to enhance dramatic effect. Sure, there are exceptions, but there is a general Marvel look. The Marvel look serves to give some connection to the look of these characters on the comic book page. This is an aesthetic choice I think serves the MCU well.

In contrast we have Snyder/DC/Warner’s dramatic “realism” which, instead, serves to distance the characters visually from comic books. To his credit, Snyder creates some stunning shots and generally has much more beautiful visuals than MCU.

But I don’t think Snyder's lush aesthetic would be appropriate for the MCU. I’m afraid a lot of the characteristic MCU intimacy would be lost. The MCU is about character and relationships over visual spectacle.

As I described in my last post, Marvel's brand of spectacle is constructed on a foundation of character (e.g. Rogers standing alone against Thanos' invasion force) and is far more emotionally effective for this viewer than the relative poster-art of the LOTR.

Based on Willems' argument the DC/Warner movies might seem more suited to his taste. He can have it.

I don't know if Willems is just exhibiting a narrow preference or if he truly doesn't appreciate the design and style of the MCU. Not to be insulting but I don't know how else to put it: Willems is either being subjectively biased or objectively ignorant.

If he's comparing IW to LOTR he might as well be making the case that Goodfellas is lacking because it doesn't possess the grandeur and spectacle of The Godfather I and II. Or that Goodfellas is visually hackneyed and "herky-jerky" compared to The Godfather. It's simply a ridiculous comparison.


(...but Goodfellas really is the better film.)
 
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Now you done poked the bear.

I subscribed to Willems' YouTube channel over 3 years ago. Sometimes I agree with him. Sometimes I don't. I don’t think I’ve watched his stuff for over a year.

His take on the Russos would be an example of where I disagree with him.



First let’s talk about the “boringly flat” “manner” to which he refers. I presume he means their use of long static shots in conversation sequences. The use of static shots is a deliberate editing choice that can be powerful device in the right hands. It’s exemplified by director Yasujiro Ozu in the 1930’s and used by Kurosawa in films like, Kagemusha and even Seven Samurai. Unfortunately, it’s used less today than it was in the 1950’s-70’s. I believe this can be attributed to shorter attention span of today’s general public which favors more dynamic shots and rapid edits.

(Digression: In my heart I believe the trend also represents an unfortunate degeneration in cinematic literacy. I’d be willing to bet that most folks under 35 years old today would struggle to sit through a viewing of The Seven Samurai, Lawrence of Arabia or even The Good The Bad and The Ugly. Heck, some people today can’t even sit through Jaws, Blade Runner or Alien.)

The Russos use of static shots is appropriate for the MCU which is founded on characters and relationships. It’s not because they don’t understand more dynamic camera work.

Now let’s talk about the Russos action sequences which he describes as “frantically hackneyed “.

This statement either wasn’t thought out or he understands nothing about action direction.

Firstly, let’s establish that the tired action film practice to which he referred is the staple of most Hollywood action movies today. To think that applies to any of the Russos action sequences is just dim-witted.

Action sequences are built around varying rhythms and breaks in rhythms. The construction and choreography of great action is interesting but it’s also a very involved discussion. Not all directors are “action directors.” For example, Joss Whedon, whom I adore, is wonderful with ensemble but not really what I would call an “action director”. The Russos, on the other hand, excel at action.

Take the Winter Soldier highway fight sequence:


[video]

[video]

I don’t see where this is the “same stuff” of action movies. These sequences have actual structure, rhythm and, yes, even story and character development told throughout. Make no mistake, the entire highway fight was storyboarded and executed with incredible skill, delicacy and intelligence.

The same could be said about the opening fight on the ship, Nick Fury’s car chase, and the elevator fight sequence.

Now let’s pull the Aragorn fight with Uruk Hai from LOTR, since it's a film he reveres.

[video]

Other than a few seconds of Legolas’ badass combat archery, the fight choreography and editing are bland and forgettable. Aragorn is just hacking into a horde of Uruk Hai who aren’t even attacking him most of the time. There’s no real sword choreography to speak of. He sends a bunch of them tumbling down stairs with a kick or dives onto a pack of them Errol Flynn-style. If you added a Dutch angle you’ve got 1960’s Batman biffing down a bunch of henchmen. There’s nothing original here.



The best way to describe film editing is that it’s about time. Sometimes the narrative is advanced through camera movement, sometimes through dynamic transitions and but also through actual dialogue or exposition. He's basically saying he would rather see the use of more dynamic transitions. But that’s simply a matter of personal taste. That’s as narrow-minded as saying you have a problem with Robert Altman’s M*A*S*H because he doesn’t apply Martin Scorsese’s breakneck camera work. You can’t compare them because they’re different kinds of film.

The Russos are what are known as, "actor's directors." Great actor's directors include Sidney Lumet (Dog Day Afternoon, 12 Angry Men, Serpico ...), Clint Eastwood (Unforgiven, Million Dollar Baby, Gran Torino, American Sniper ...), Sydney Pollack ...

(In contrast you also have directors like Ridley Scott or George Lucas who are so notoriously absorbed in the technical end that some actors can feel like they're being treated like props.)

The Russos make it clear, in interviews that they hold character, casting and performance above all. If one can set aside the stigma of the superhero genre it’s apparent there is a cohesive complexity and structure to performance and character of, say, RDJ as Tony Stark and his relationships with other characters (Rogers, Parker, Potts ...). An adept actor’s director can draw out superb performances from even inexperienced actors.

Just as films that are fundamentally spectacle (e.g. LOTR) can have character moments, character-driven can have moments of spectacle as well. Russo’s MCU is the latter.

I will grant that MCU visual effects aren’t always technically “cutting edge” (except for de-aging) but they tend to focus more on design which is good to often great.

I can also understand the gripe some people have about the “look” of Marvel films. Their lighting and color grading are characteristically very vivid (even when desaturated), often without much layering in the frame to suggest depth nor used to enhance dramatic effect. Sure, there are exceptions, but there is a general Marvel look. The Marvel look serves to give some connection to the look of these characters on the comic book page. This is an aesthetic choice I think serves the MCU well.

In contrast we have Snyder/DC/Warner’s dramatic “realism” which, instead, serves to distance the characters visually from comic books. To his credit, Snyder creates some stunning shots and generally has much more lush visuals than MCU.

But I don’t think that same aesthetic would be appropriate the MCU. I’m afraid a lot of the characteristic MCU intimacy would be lost. The MCU is about character and relationships over visual spectacle.

A I described in my last post, Marvel's brand of spectacle is constructed on a foundation of character (e.g. Rogers standing alone against Thanos' invasion force) and is far more emotionally effective for this viewer than the relative poster-art of the LOTR.

Based on Willems' argument the DC/Warner movies might seem more suited to his taste. He can have it.

I don't know if Willems is just exhibiting a narrow preference or if he truly doesn't appreciate the design and style of the MCU. Not to be insulting but I don't know how else to put it: Willems is either being subjectively biased or objectively ignorant.

If he's comparing IW to LOTR he might as well be making the case that Goodfellas is lacking because it doesn't possess the grandeur and spectacle of The Godfather I and II. Or that Goodfellas is visually hackneyed and "herky-jerky" compared to The Godfather. It's simply a ridiculous comparison.


(...but Goodfellas really is the better film.)

Good lord dascoyne that may have been the single most enjoyable post I’ve read in the 25+ years I’ve been reading posts on message/bulletin boards.

Great, great post!
 
Now you done poked the bear.

I subscribed to Willems' YouTube channel over 3 years ago. Sometimes I agree with him. Sometimes I don't. I don’t think I’ve watched his stuff for over a year.

His take on the Russos would be an example of where I disagree with him.



First let’s talk about the “boringly flat” “manner” to which he refers. I presume he means their use of long static shots in conversation sequences. The use of static shots is a deliberate editing choice that can be a powerful device in the right hands. It’s exemplified by director Yasujiro Ozu in the 1930’s and used by Kurosawa in films like, Kagemusha and even Seven Samurai. Unfortunately, it’s used less today than it was in the 1950’s-70’s. I believe this can be attributed to shorter attention span of today’s general public which favors more dynamic shots and rapid edits.

(Digression: In my heart I believe the trend also represents an unfortunate degeneration in cinematic literacy. I’d be willing to bet that most folks under 35 years old today would struggle to sit through a viewing of The Seven Samurai, Lawrence of Arabia or even The Good The Bad and The Ugly. Heck, some people today can’t even sit through Jaws, Blade Runner or Alien.)

The Russos' use of static shots is appropriate for the MCU which is founded on characters and relationships. It’s not because they don’t understand more dynamic camera work.

Now let’s talk about the Russos action sequences which he describes as “frantically hackneyed “.

This statement either wasn’t thought out or he understands nothing about action direction.

Firstly, let’s establish that the tired action film practice to which he referred is the staple of most Hollywood action movies today. To think that applies to any of the Russos action sequences is just dim-witted.

Action sequences are built around varying rhythms and breaks in rhythms. The construction and choreography of great action is interesting but it’s also a very involved discussion. Not all directors are “action directors.” For example, Joss Whedon, whom I adore, is wonderful with ensemble cast but not really what I would call an “action director”. The Russos, on the other hand, excel at action.

Take the Winter Soldier highway fight sequence:




I don’t see where this is the “same stuff” of action movies. These sequences have actual structure, rhythm and, yes, even story and character development throughout. Make no mistake, the entire highway fight was storyboarded and executed with incredible skill, delicacy and intelligence.

The same could be said about the opening fight on the ship, Nick Fury’s car chase, and the elevator fight sequence.

Now let’s pull the Aragorn fight with Uruk Hai from LOTR, since it's a film he reveres.


Other than a few seconds of Legolas’ badass combat archery, the fight choreography and editing are bland and forgettable. Aragorn is just hacking into a horde of Uruk Hai who aren’t even attacking him most of the time. There’s no real sword choreography to speak of. He sends a bunch of them tumbling down stairs with a kick or dives onto a pack of them Errol Flynn-style. If you added a Dutch angle you’ve got 1960’s Batman biffing down a bunch of henchmen. There’s nothing original here.



The best way to describe film editing is that it’s about time. Sometimes the narrative is advanced through camera movement, sometimes through dynamic transitions and but also through actual dialogue or exposition. He's basically saying he would rather see the use of more dynamic transitions. But that’s simply a matter of personal taste. That’s as narrow-minded as saying you have a problem with Robert Altman’s M*A*S*H because he doesn’t apply Martin Scorsese’s breakneck camera work. You can’t compare them because they’re different kinds of film.

The Russos are what are known as, "actor's directors." Great actor's directors include Sidney Lumet (Dog Day Afternoon, 12 Angry Men, Serpico ...), Clint Eastwood (Unforgiven, Million Dollar Baby, Gran Torino, American Sniper ...), Sydney Pollack ...

(In contrast you also have directors like Ridley Scott or George Lucas who are so notoriously absorbed in the technical end that some actors can feel like they're being treated like props.)

The Russos make it clear, in interviews that they hold character, casting and performance above all. If one can set aside the stigma of the superhero genre it’s apparent there is a cohesive complexity and structure to performance and character of, say, RDJ as Tony Stark and his relationships with other characters (Rogers, Parker, Potts ...). An adept actor’s director can draw out superb performances from even inexperienced actors.

Just as films that are fundamentally spectacle (e.g. LOTR) can have character moments, character-driven can have moments of spectacle as well. Russo’s MCU is the latter.

I will grant that MCU visual effects aren’t always technically “cutting edge” (except for de-aging) but they tend to focus more on design which is good to often great.

I can also understand the gripe some people have about the “look” of Marvel films. Their lighting and color grading are characteristically very vivid (even when desaturated), often without much layering in the frame to suggest depth nor used to enhance dramatic effect. Sure, there are exceptions, but there is a general Marvel look. The Marvel look serves to give some connection to the look of these characters on the comic book page. This is an aesthetic choice I think serves the MCU well.

In contrast we have Snyder/DC/Warner’s dramatic “realism” which, instead, serves to distance the characters visually from comic books. To his credit, Snyder creates some stunning shots and generally has much more lush visuals than MCU.

But I don’t think that same aesthetic would be appropriate the MCU. I’m afraid a lot of the characteristic MCU intimacy would be lost. The MCU is about character and relationships over visual spectacle.

As I described in my last post, Marvel's brand of spectacle is constructed on a foundation of character (e.g. Rogers standing alone against Thanos' invasion force) and is far more emotionally effective for this viewer than the relative poster-art of the LOTR.

Based on Willems' argument the DC/Warner movies might seem more suited to his taste. He can have it.

I don't know if Willems is just exhibiting a narrow preference or if he truly doesn't appreciate the design and style of the MCU. Not to be insulting but I don't know how else to put it: Willems is either being subjectively biased or objectively ignorant.

If he's comparing IW to LOTR he might as well be making the case that Goodfellas is lacking because it doesn't possess the grandeur and spectacle of The Godfather I and II. Or that Goodfellas is visually hackneyed and "herky-jerky" compared to The Godfather. It's simply a ridiculous comparison.


(...but Goodfellas really is the better film.)

A very insightful analysis and response, nicely done.

I think that there is an element of backlash against the success of the MCU by certain Youtubers, whether due to genuine gripes or just to get click-bait activity in order to generate advertising revenue for themselves.

The ultimate success of any film is, did you enjoy it? Did it cause an emotional reaction, did it engage you?

For me, Endgame and every MCU film, had my attention from the opening frame to the end credits scene.

I think comparing films is like the classic apples and oranges idiom.
 
There's snobbery in looking down on superhero films. Sometimes it's subconscious. As we saw above, folks will dump on the Russo Brothers just because their CV is comprised of a TV sitcom, a miserable indie film and some MCU films. Ever since Winter Soldier I've been really impressed at the breadth of their cinematic literacy.

It should be noted that the Russos were mentored by Steven Soderbergh who was also the mentor for a young Christopher Nolan.
 
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