Avengers: Endgame (Post-release)

What did you think of Avengers: Endgame?


  • Total voters
    225
edits.

(Digression: In my heart I believe the trend also represents an unfortunate degeneration in cinematic literacy. I’d be willing to bet that most folks under 35 years old today would struggle to sit through a viewing of The Seven Samurai, Lawrence of Arabia or even The Good The Bad and The Ugly. Heck, some people today can’t even sit through Jaws, Blade Runner or Alien.)

Not to go too far off subject of the movie, I agree with this wholeheartedly. It's the result of an instant gratification world. Everything is at everyone's figure tips, instantly. I'm in my 40's, but I get it. It's not their fault really. My generation grew up with a transition from a slower less connected world to it's one hell of a small world. We got the benefit of seeing both sides. Same as people born in the late 1800's vs those in the early 1900's living their way into a vastly different world of the 1920s on.

Anyway. Great pick. Lawrence of Arabia... I had the pleasure of seeing that on a big screen in Ottawa, ON 20 years ago in my 20's (ugh). It's long, but what a great character and image driven movie.

I wouldn't put Jaws up there completely. There seems to be something about it that young people seem to enjoy (based on my limited experience having my kids view it recently). I'm not sure what it is. Maybe the hokeyness isn't so unbearable as some early films can seem to younger people (and to me).

That's all- sorry for the off topic babbling.
 
First of all...

giphy.gif


I'm definitely with you on the differences in pacing in "vintage Hollywood" and other directorial traditions. It is utterly as much a factor in choosing what I want to watch as documentary versus heist film or like that. The measured, slow shots in something like Lawrence of Arabia, like when Sharif Ali is approaching Lawrence at the well, or in 2001, to establish the ennui of having beein doing routine monitoring on a smallish spaceship for a year... Those are just as valid as the over-the-top presentation in things like 300 or A Knight's Tale, which are perfect for what they are -- cinmeatic versions of the embellished stories being told about the actual events around campfires or in village pubs decades and centuries after the fact.

Another layer in that that I consider just as relevant, and especially so for superhero movies, is effective use of deadpan -- treating the absurd as commonplace. What I love about Buckaroo Banzai...


...or the writing of Douglas Adams or Terry Pratchett.

It's one of the things where I feel DC (or, more specifically, WB) should go back to screenwriting 101 to figure out. You can play it straight without losing the wonder to the grimdark. One of the things I really enjoyed about Shazam! compared to the other DC films in recent years. Superman should be DC's Captain America -- the obdurate boy scout, whose unwavering hopefulness and optimism sometimes clashes with those around him.

"Who do you want me to be?"
"How 'bout a friend?"
"There's a chance you might be in the wrong business, Rogers..."

You can deliver emotionally charged stories and evocative character pathos without skewing this way into camp or that way into humorless grimdark.

Moving on, though...

The best way to describe film editing is that it’s about time. Sometimes the narrative is advanced through camera movement, sometimes through dynamic transitions and but also through actual dialogue or exposition. He's basically saying he would rather see the use of more dynamic transitions. But that’s simply a matter of personal taste. That’s as narrow-minded as saying you have a problem with Robert Altman’s M*A*S*H because he doesn’t apply Martin Scorsese’s breakneck camera work. You can’t compare them because they’re different kinds of film.

It's also crucial to understand how this factors into the whole process. The editor is the one who ultimately controls what you see, how fast, and in what order. Usually under the guidance of the director. But for the director to be able to deliver what the editor needs, there needs to be a good script. Any one alone can't guarantee a good or bad film.

And it plays into the biggest ongoing issue with Star Wars. George has loved speed forever. He wanted to be a racing driver, but his eyes weren't good enough, so he became his local track photographer. He used the same darkroom as the guy who filmed the races, and got fascinated with the process of cutting together the film, the control over what people ultimately saw, and went to USC to become a film editor... But, by the time he got to the Star Wars prequels, he had determined that the only way he could make sure he got what he needed in the editing suite was to write and direct, even though he liked doing neither. Which leads me to...

The Russos are what are known as, "actor's directors." Great actor's directors include Sidney Lumet (Dog Day Afternoon, 12 Angry Men, Serpico ...), Clint Eastwood (Unforgiven, Million Dollar Baby, Gran Torino, American Sniper ...), Sydney Pollack ...

(In contrast you also have directors like Ridley Scott or George Lucas who are so notoriously absorbed in the technical end that some actors can feel like they're being treated like props.)

It's been observed that the quality of a film doesn't stand or fall on any one element. Good directors can wring good performance out of less-skilled actors. Good actors can overcome mediocre directors. Instinctive actors can override iffy writing. One thing I find fascinating is John Logan. Star Trek: Nemesis was... painful. It was bad up one side and cringe down the other. But it wasn't the ability of the screenwriter, because the very next film he did was The Last Samurai. Standard formulaic fare, sure, but very well executed. I like to hold him -- and those two back-to-back films -- up as an example of the impact of the other elements of a film production on what's seen as one of the most foundational.

Quick-cutting in an action sequence is a thing that's come into vogue in the last couple decades because it was very quickly discovered to be a great way to convey the chaos of a fully-engaged mêlée as those in it would experience it. There had previously been a tacit concern that the audience wouldn't be able to grasp what was happening. That goes all the way back to The Great Train Robbery being the first film to intercut between action happening simultaneously in two different locations -- a thing that hadn't previously been done, because those dictating the process believed audiences would get confused and not be able to make that mental leap.

The only time I might question the use of the technique is when it jars with what's around it in a way other than story-relevant organic-ness. Like, it can be one thing to have a character moment interrupted by something shocking and horrific and pans and intercuts and brief shots can convey the jangled feeling the characters have in the wake of it. That's effective. But having it just come out of nowhere for no reason? No. Then the director's just being a self-important twit.

I will grant that MCU visual effects aren’t always technically “cutting edge” (except for de-aging) but they tend to focus more on design which is good to often great.

That was actually kind of part of the MCU from when it really became a thing. Iron Man was as practical as they could possibly manage. They used every physical trick and bit of sleight-of-hand that they could, and CGI only where necessary. I admit, I actually kind of prefer that to "falling back on CGI" that has become more of a thing in Phase 3. Might add to the shooting schedule, might limit the scope of a shot, but it feels more real -- at least to me.

I can also understand the gripe some people have about the “look” of Marvel films. Their lighting and color grading are characteristically very vivid (even when desaturated), often without much layering in the frame to suggest depth nor used to enhance dramatic effect. Sure, there are exceptions, but there is a general Marvel look. The Marvel look serves to give some connection to the look of these characters on the comic book page. This is an aesthetic choice I think serves the MCU well.

In contrast we have Snyder/DC/Warner’s dramatic “realism” which, instead, serves to distance the characters visually from comic books. To his credit, Snyder creates some stunning shots and generally has much more lush visuals than MCU.

But I don’t think that same aesthetic would be appropriate the MCU. I’m afraid a lot of the characteristic MCU intimacy would be lost. The MCU is about character and relationships over visual spectacle.

Marvel's colorfulness should be at least matched by DC. The colorfulness of characters like Superman or the original Green Lantern or Flash were hallmarks of the "funnies" back in that era. Fun fact: All the "green" characters started showing up when the technology evolved from three-color printing to four-color. I live in the Seattle area, and one of the hallmarks of living here is a lifetime of being constantly surprised by just how many shades of vibrant green there are. Reality is colorful. Marvel Studios gets this.

One last thing I'll say in regards to "muddiness" of a Marvel action sequence... Joek3rr, make sure your local cinema has been keeping up with replacing their projector bulbs. More than in the age of physical film, digital projection seriously needs good, bright lightsources. Look at the reported viewing experiences with Solo -- myself included. Two different theaters in one local cinema, one was just fine, the other was the dim mess many others grumbled about and attributed to the cinematography. I had no trouble following what was happening in IW, Endgame, BP... I did not see any of the "bland muddiness" you speak of anywhere in Phase 3. I can agree some films (or parts of films) were more colorful than others, but not lack of color in them. So I wonder if the issue is a technical one local to you...
 
Last edited:
Did anyone ever address why all those boats were at the Statue of Liberty? I would guess maybe people from areas hit harder by The Snap came to NYC because it was able to withstand the problems better (like having enough people to run the power grid, sanitation, water, and importing food).
I also started thinking those ships might've juet washed up there, since we assume there were vessels that lost their crew (or enough essential crew) that they became deralict and eventually washed ashore. Though I realize the Statue of Liberty has less shoreline than the surrounding islands of NY, it could've been shown for more dramatic effect.
If there's an official explanation out there, let me know.
 
Last edited:
Now you done poked the bear.

I subscribed to Willems' YouTube channel over 3 years ago. Sometimes I agree with him. Sometimes I don't. I don’t think I’ve watched his stuff for over a year.

His take on the Russos would be an example of where I disagree with him.



First let’s talk about the “boringly flat” “manner” to which he refers. I presume he means their use of long static shots in conversation sequences. The use of static shots is a deliberate editing choice that can be a powerful device in the right hands. It’s exemplified by director Yasujiro Ozu in the 1930’s and used by Kurosawa in films like, Kagemusha and even Seven Samurai. Unfortunately, it’s used less today than it was in the 1950’s-70’s. I believe this can be attributed to shorter attention span of today’s general public which favors more dynamic shots and rapid edits.

(Digression: In my heart I believe the trend also represents an unfortunate degeneration in cinematic literacy. I’d be willing to bet that most folks under 35 years old today would struggle to sit through a viewing of The Seven Samurai, Lawrence of Arabia or even The Good The Bad and The Ugly. Heck, some people today can’t even sit through Jaws, Blade Runner or Alien.)

The Russos' use of static shots is appropriate for the MCU which is founded on characters and relationships. It’s not because they don’t understand more dynamic camera work.

Now let’s talk about the Russos action sequences which he describes as “frantically hackneyed “.

This statement either wasn’t thought out or he understands nothing about action direction.

Firstly, let’s establish that the tired action film practice to which he referred is the staple of most Hollywood action movies today. To think that applies to any of the Russos action sequences is just dim-witted.

Action sequences are built around varying rhythms and breaks in rhythms. The construction and choreography of great action is interesting but it’s also a very involved discussion. Not all directors are “action directors.” For example, Joss Whedon, whom I adore, is wonderful with ensemble cast but not really what I would call an “action director”. The Russos, on the other hand, excel at action.

Take the Winter Soldier highway fight sequence:




I don’t see where this is the “same stuff” of action movies. These sequences have actual structure, rhythm and, yes, even story and character development throughout. Make no mistake, the entire highway fight was storyboarded and executed with incredible skill, delicacy and intelligence.

The same could be said about the opening fight on the ship, Nick Fury’s car chase, and the elevator fight sequence.

Now let’s pull the Aragorn fight with Uruk Hai from LOTR, since it's a film he reveres.


Other than a few seconds of Legolas’ badass combat archery, the fight choreography and editing are bland and forgettable. Aragorn is just hacking into a horde of Uruk Hai who aren’t even attacking him most of the time. There’s no real sword choreography to speak of. He sends a bunch of them tumbling down stairs with a kick or dives onto a pack of them Errol Flynn-style. If you added a Dutch angle you’ve got 1960’s Batman biffing down a bunch of henchmen. There’s nothing original here.



The best way to describe film editing is that it’s about time. Sometimes the narrative is advanced through camera movement, sometimes through dynamic transitions and but also through actual dialogue or exposition. He's basically saying he would rather see the use of more dynamic transitions. But that’s simply a matter of personal taste. That’s as narrow-minded as saying you have a problem with Robert Altman’s M*A*S*H because he doesn’t apply Martin Scorsese’s breakneck camera work. You can’t compare them because they’re different kinds of film.

The Russos are what are known as, "actor's directors." Great actor's directors include Sidney Lumet (Dog Day Afternoon, 12 Angry Men, Serpico ...), Clint Eastwood (Unforgiven, Million Dollar Baby, Gran Torino, American Sniper ...), Sydney Pollack ...

(In contrast you also have directors like Ridley Scott or George Lucas who are so notoriously absorbed in the technical end that some actors can feel like they're being treated like props.)

The Russos make it clear, in interviews that they hold character, casting and performance above all. If one can set aside the stigma of the superhero genre it’s apparent there is a cohesive complexity and structure to performance and character of, say, RDJ as Tony Stark and his relationships with other characters (Rogers, Parker, Potts ...). An adept actor’s director can draw out superb performances from even inexperienced actors.

Just as films that are fundamentally spectacle (e.g. LOTR) can have character moments, character-driven can have moments of spectacle as well. Russo’s MCU is the latter.

I will grant that MCU visual effects aren’t always technically “cutting edge” (except for de-aging) but they tend to focus more on design which is good to often great.

I can also understand the gripe some people have about the “look” of Marvel films. Their lighting and color grading are characteristically very vivid (even when desaturated), often without much layering in the frame to suggest depth nor used to enhance dramatic effect. Sure, there are exceptions, but there is a general Marvel look. The Marvel look serves to give some connection to the look of these characters on the comic book page. This is an aesthetic choice I think serves the MCU well.

In contrast we have Snyder/DC/Warner’s dramatic “realism” which, instead, serves to distance the characters visually from comic books. To his credit, Snyder creates some stunning shots and generally has much more lush visuals than MCU.

But I don’t think that same aesthetic would be appropriate the MCU. I’m afraid a lot of the characteristic MCU intimacy would be lost. The MCU is about character and relationships over visual spectacle.

As I described in my last post, Marvel's brand of spectacle is constructed on a foundation of character (e.g. Rogers standing alone against Thanos' invasion force) and is far more emotionally effective for this viewer than the relative poster-art of the LOTR.

Based on Willems' argument the DC/Warner movies might seem more suited to his taste. He can have it.

I don't know if Willems is just exhibiting a narrow preference or if he truly doesn't appreciate the design and style of the MCU. Not to be insulting but I don't know how else to put it: Willems is either being subjectively biased or objectively ignorant.

If he's comparing IW to LOTR he might as well be making the case that Goodfellas is lacking because it doesn't possess the grandeur and spectacle of The Godfather I and II. Or that Goodfellas is visually hackneyed and "herky-jerky" compared to The Godfather. It's simply a ridiculous comparison.


(...but Goodfellas really is the better film.)

Well no one can accuse you of not being passionate :D

I don't even want to get to involved in this. As I've said, I'm an armchair film enthusiasts. I don't really know a whole lot. But I'm like Patrick on this. I love the Marvel films, but something is staring to feel off. Why wasn't I as hyped for Endgame as I was for Infinity War or Age of Ultron? What was happening? Was it me? Was it the films? And that's what I've been trying to figure out. And Patrick's 3 part video had come the closest to giving me answers.

And on the subject of the herky-jerky camerawork. The Russo brothers love their shaky cam/handheld cam. Watching those two scenes from Winter Soldier and some stuff from Infinity War reminded of that. (And catching warching sections of Ant-Man and The Wasp, and Ragnarok, those directors barely use it) And gads I abhor shaky cam. It's right under jump scares for me. It's such a cheap way to ramp up the energy in action scenes, and to hide sloppy choreography. I'd take a fight scenes shot like this any day.
Sure it's got its uses and places. But I've physically gotten dizzy watching shaky cam. And the Russos over use it in my opinion.
 
Had a random thought about the Hulk's snap. He brought back everyone who disappeared during Thano's snap, what would happen if say a pilot of a plane had disappeared but NOT the passengers. The plane crashes, those people dies, then 5 years later the pilot comes back but the passengers are still dead! Also how about when the people come back after being snapped out of existence and loved ones that they left behind are now dead from disease. accidents. etc. By the way I LOVE this movie and not bashing it just some random thoughts :)
 
Had a random thought about the Hulk's snap. He brought back everyone who disappeared during Thano's snap, what would happen if say a pilot of a plane had disappeared but NOT the passengers. The plane crashes, those people dies, then 5 years later the pilot comes back but the passengers are still dead! Also how about when the people come back after being snapped out of existence and loved ones that they left behind are now dead from disease. accidents. etc. By the way I LOVE this movie and not bashing it just some random thoughts :)

The reverse snap happening "5. Years. Later." creates the potential for all kinds of interesting scenarios like this. In my head, I don't think about it too much because ultimately that's not what the story is about. Maybe later, they may build upon some of those ideas to do something interesting in a future story, like how Zemo was driven to avenge his family following the events of AOU. Unless they address it in the future, I plan to just accept it and move on.
 
Had a random thought about the Hulk's snap. He brought back everyone who disappeared during Thano's snap, what would happen if say a pilot of a plane had disappeared but NOT the passengers. The plane crashes, those people dies, then 5 years later the pilot comes back but the passengers are still dead! Also how about when the people come back after being snapped out of existence and loved ones that they left behind are now dead from disease. accidents. etc. By the way I LOVE this movie and not bashing it just some random thoughts :)

My hubby and I were discussing this the other day.

Like... imagine you were snapped at 16 and you had a 13 year old sibling. You are unsnapped 5 years later. You're still 16 and your "little" brother or sister is now 18! Or, you were married and very happy and in love when your spouse was snapped. You spend years grieving, finally decide to move on and fall in love with someone new. The day after your wedding, your "snapped spouse" shows up, wondering what the hell happened. OR, your child was snapped, and as so often happens, your marriage falls apart after the loss of the child. 5 years later, the child returns at the same age, wondering why mom and dad are divorced and can barely be civil to one another...

I mean, there are LEGIONS of potential issues that could come up with what Bruce did...
 
Had a random thought about the Hulk's snap. He brought back everyone who disappeared during Thano's snap, what would happen if say a pilot of a plane had disappeared but NOT the passengers. The plane crashes, those people dies, then 5 years later the pilot comes back but the passengers are still dead! Also how about when the people come back after being snapped out of existence and loved ones that they left behind are now dead from disease. accidents. etc. By the way I LOVE this movie and not bashing it just some random thoughts :)

And where does the pilot reappear at? Does he suddenly appear at 33,000 feet, where his plane once was 5 years ago?
 
And where does the pilot reappear at? Does he suddenly appear at 33,000 feet, where his plane once was 5 years ago?
What's worse is the passenger on that plane who was using the toilet. He's suddenly 33,000 feet with his pants down.

How about all the automobile drivers suddenly appearing while still going 80 mph down a street with no car?

What if someone else is standing in a place where someone else got snapped? Will this be like a terrible transporter malfunction?


I don't think Marvel/Disney will dodge these questions. I think MCU monitors social media and online fandom to see what theories and questions start to gain momentum within the fanbase. They use that information to address "plot holes" in future content. And they can craft their future stories so as to avoid all popular fan-theories.
 
I mean, some degree of "compensation" needs to be tacitly assumed to be factored in, and not just of the "objects occupying the same physical space" variety. The Earth is not in the same place in its orbit around the sun, or rotation on its axis. The sun has moved within the galaxy. Our galactic cluster has moved relative to the others nearby, spacetime itself has expanded for the last five years, etc.

Given Bruce was also specifically trying to bring back Natasha, and there on Earth and not Vormir, I feel we can assume everyone who was snapped and everyone who died after as a result of aftersnap ripple effects was willed back to life/health/existence where they died/blipped out, or the nearest safe place if that wouldn't be workable. Can't explain why everyone who dusted on Titan wasn't brought back on Earth the way he was trying to do with Nat...
 
We're reading WAY too much into it.

If he had to calculate where people returned (impossible given there are 1000's of planets with life out there in all likelihood) - that would mean thanos would have had to do a similar calculation to figure out how to remove them in the first place.

If the glove can give you the power to wipe out half the universe with a snap of the fingers, it's just as plausible it has enough intelligence to know not to stick them in mid-air, or space, etc.
 
Avengers: Endgame's worrying Snap issue has been solved

The pilot/cars/airplane thing has already been addressed.

Everyone was returned safely because BannerHulk is smart.
We're reading WAY too much into it.

If he had to calculate where people returned (impossible given there are 1000's of planets with life out there in all likelihood) - that would mean thanos would have had to do a similar calculation to figure out how to remove them in the first place.

If the glove can give you the power to wipe out half the universe with a snap of the fingers, it's just as plausible it has enough intelligence to know not to stick them in mid-air, or space, etc.


The new system software doesn’t show it, but the first line of my post I’ve quoted here is actually a link.

Kevin Feige confirmed that BannerHulk was smart enough to use the Stones to make sure everyone was snapped back in a safe location.
 
How about all the other planets where half of all life dusted, and then 5 years later reappeared without ANY explanation whatsoever. You're just an average Gongolarthian, and one day your Sceever is gone, just GONE and for the next few years your all plopkin about it, and then you get JoulinWakin, and Soobaloo becomes your new Sceever and just 2 years later (17 Woonpkin in Gongolathian) your old Sceever is standing in your Yookmeethan, and has no idea what just happened. How do you handle THAT?
 
So while they were trying something a little different in that the brought everyone back in the same timeline, I still think it would have been better if they had just fixed it before Thanos snapped the first time so no one ever disappeared in the first place.
I know Tony was stressing that he didn't want this new future changed so he could go back to his daughter, but he dies anyways, making that pointless.
 
I know Tony was stressing that he didn't want this new future changed so he could go back to his daughter, but he dies anyways, making that pointless.
Yes but the daughter is still alive. And I'm sure there are a lot of other folks who have started families during that time, who wouldn't want to lose them.
 
Yes but the daughter is still alive. And I'm sure there are a lot of other folks who have started families during that time, who wouldn't want to lose them.
But it they jumped back before the snap, then you never even knew you had a family.
 
But it they jumped back before the snap, then you never even knew you had a family.
So you'd just eliminate all the people born since then? Don't they have a right to live? The way it played out is the best solution, even with the potential familial complications.
 
Back
Top